David Rubenstein (2024)
Co-founder and Co-Chairman of the Board, Carlyle
It takes a lifetime to build your reputation and five minutes to destroy it. So don’t behave unethically, don’t take the path of least resistance. Try to always do something that, if it’s exposed on the front page of the New York Times and the Washington Post, you won’t be embarrassed.
Summary
This week on Leadership Matters, Alan is once again joined by David Rubenstein — author, philanthropist, and investor who helped create one of the largest and most successful private equity firms in the world. Co-founder and Co-Chairman of the Carlyle Group, David is an extremely active philanthropist who has helped to preserve key pieces of American heritage and support cultural institutions in the Washington area and beyond.
A prolific author and interviewer, David’s fourth appearance on Leadership Matters focuses on his latest book, a New York Times bestseller titled The Highest Calling: Conversations on the American Presidency. In it, David blends history and anecdote to chronicle the journey of presidents who have defined America as it exists now, what they envision for its future and their legacy on the world stage. Over the course of their conversation, David and Alan discuss a variety of topics in and surrounding the book, including David’s thoughts on how we can restore the American people’s trust in the role and ability of government.
Mentions & Resources
The Highest Calling: Conversations on the American Presidency, by David Rubenstein
How to Invest: Masters on the Craft, by David Rubenstein
How to Lead: Wisdom from the World’s Greatest CEOs, Founders, and Game Changers, by David Rubenstein
The American Story: Conversations with Master Historians, by David Rubenstein
The American Experiment: Dialogues on a Dream, by David Rubenstein
Guest Bio
Mr. Rubenstein is a co-founder and non-executive Co-Chairman of the Board of Carlyle. Previously, Mr. Rubenstein served as Co-Chief Executive Officer of Carlyle.
Prior to forming Carlyle in 1987, Mr. Rubenstein practiced law in Washington, D.C. with Shaw, Pittman, Potts & Trowbridge LLP (now Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP). From 1977 to 1981, Mr. Rubenstein was Deputy Assistant to the President for Domestic Policy. From 1975 to 1976, he served as Chief Counsel to the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee’s Subcommittee on Constitutional Amendments. From 1973 to 1975, Mr. Rubenstein practiced law in New York with Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP.
Among other philanthropic endeavors, Mr. Rubenstein is Chairman of the Boards of the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the Economic Club of Washington and serves on the Board of Directors or Trustees of the National Gallery of Art, the University of Chicago, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, Johns Hopkins Medicine, the Institute for Advanced Study, the National Constitution Center, the Brookings Institution, the Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the World Economic Forum.
Learn more, follow, or read David’s writing at DavidRubenstein.com.
Episode Transcript
Alan Fleischmann
I’m joined today by an esteemed investor, leader, globally recognized philanthropist, public servant, and best-selling author on a mission to champion American history and culture. David Rubenstein is the co-founder and co-chairman of the Carlyle Group, one of the world’s largest and most successful investment firms with nearly $450 billion in assets under management. Since his early work as a public servant in Jimmy Carter’s White House, David has been an extremely active philanthropist, who has helped to preserve key pieces of American heritage and support cultural institutions in the Washington, DC area and beyond.
David is a true Renaissance man. In addition to his fabulous career in the public and private sectors, on Wall Street and beyond, he has written a variety of excellent books over the past few years on subjects ranging from the history of the United States to the traits of some of our nation’s greatest leaders.
For his fourth appearance here on Leadership Matters, David and I are going to be discussing his newest book, The Highest Calling: Conversations on the American Presidency, published in September. David’s must-read bestseller chronicles the journeys of the presidents who have defined America as it exists now, their vision for the future, and their legacy on the world stage. It’s a powerful combination of history, which is important for us to know more than ever, and a glimpse into the future. The book features David’s personal interviews with living American presidents, top historians, and highly regarded journalists and influencers.
David is a dear friend, and it’s always such a joy to have him with us to discuss his writing, his inspiring career journey, and the many lessons in leadership he’s learned over the years. David, welcome back to Leadership Matters. I’ve been looking forward to this. It is a pleasure to have you on the show.
David Rubenstein
Alan, thank you very much for having me. I’m delighted to be here with you.
Alan Fleischmann
I love hearing your story, and I—you know, I come from Baltimore, as do you. Let’s start with just a brief refresher, if you could, for new listeners. Tell us a little bit about your early life—what life was like around the house growing up in Baltimore and what your parents did.
David Rubenstein
My parents were not college or high school educated. My father had dropped out of high school to go into World War II. He came back after the war, met my mother, who was in high school. She dropped out of high school. They got married, and more than nine months later, I became their only child.
My father worked in the post office his entire career as a file clerk. We didn’t have a lot of money, but, you know, we didn’t need a lot of money for what we were doing. We lived in a modest house in Baltimore. It was a very rigidly segregated area in Baltimore by religion, so almost everybody who was Jewish lived in this narrow area of Northwest Baltimore. I knew very few people who weren’t Jewish until I went to a large public high school that was across town, and that’s how I grew up.
Alan Fleischmann
You know, we both have a strong connection to Baltimore, but I would say you rekindled mine when I recently went to an Orioles game with you. All of a sudden, I saw Baltimore through a whole different lens—you being the new owner of the Baltimore Orioles has gotten such celebration. What are some of the ways that you’ve remained connected to the city over the years? Or was it something that came later, and you went back to Baltimore?
David Rubenstein
When I was growing up in Baltimore, I was not part of a family that was helping to run Baltimore, and I didn’t see Baltimore as a place where I could really prosper and do very much. I didn’t really expect to stay in Baltimore.
My real goal was to get into politics and to be an advisor to a politician. I ultimately became an advisor to Senator Birch Bayh and then an advisor at the White House to President Carter—a junior White House aide, I should point out. My goal was really to spend my career probably in New York or Washington, not Baltimore.
I’ve been out of Baltimore for roughly 50 years since I left for law school, but I was always interested in the Orioles. I’ve given away a fair amount of money in philanthropy over the years—I was an original signer of the Giving Pledge—and I’ve given away at least half of my net worth so far, with plans to give away a great deal more.
But I felt I hadn’t done much for Baltimore. I’ve been on the Johns Hopkins board and given some money there, but that’s not enough compared to what Baltimore could benefit from. I thought I could find a way to help Baltimore by maybe buying the Orioles, reviving them, and making them more of a feature attraction in Baltimore. Baseball has been important to Baltimore’s history ever since the Orioles came here in 1954 from St. Louis.
I saw it as a philanthropic gesture to help Baltimore. My parents grew up in Baltimore, were married there, and are buried there. I grew up there and will likely be buried there too. I just thought I should do more for Baltimore, and this was one way of showing my support.
Alan Fleischmann
You’ve rekindled a lot of people’s dreams and energy. It’s really remarkable, including my own. You’ve brought great partners to the table. Cal Ripken, for example—a friend—is someone who feels like he’s been treated so beautifully by you. It’s brought him back to the stadium in ways he hadn’t been for years.
David Rubenstein
Cal Ripken was the Iron Man of baseball—2,632 games in a row, breaking Lou Gehrig’s record. He’s a Baltimore hero, a Hall of Famer, and helped win the World Series for the Orioles in 1983. But he hadn’t been that connected to the Orioles in recent years. I thought if I could make him part of the ownership group and get him involved again, that would be helpful.
I brought him into the ownership group, along with Kurt Schmoke—the former mayor of Baltimore, a friend of mine from growing up, and now the president of the University of Baltimore. I’ve also brought in other people—women and diverse members—who either grew up in Baltimore or feel a strong connection to the city. It’s a great group of people cheering for the Orioles.
Alan Fleischmann
No, it’s amazing. And again, you can talk to anybody in the city and anybody who’s a fan, and they feel that. They feel that love of Baltimore that’s rekindling their love, and they feel the energy as well. So that’s a big part of the civil society. I love the way you described it. You don’t want to lose money, but it was a big part of an extension of your philanthropy and giving back to Baltimore in a way that honestly will live on for a long time. It is changing the city and making it much more exciting and much more attractive. I’m curious about that intersection. I think of you as someone who leads in that intersection—the intersection of public life, private sector, and civil society. Carlyle being the first and foremost, and then again, civil society, preserving and protecting what’s most sacred to us in our democracy. I’d argue that an extension of that is your book. When you were at Duke studying political science or at the University of Chicago for law school, were you always a great writer? Was writing a big passion of yours?
David Rubenstein
I went to a large public high school in Baltimore called Baltimore City College, even though it’s a high school—the third oldest public high school in the United States, starting in 1839. I had a 10th-grade teacher who really taught my classmates and me how to write grammatically correctly and how to put together a composition that made sense. From that time on, I tried to learn how to write—not as a professional writer, but to write reasonably clearly. I tell people all the time: if you want to work at Carlyle or do well professionally, learn how to write well. Learn how to talk well and communicate. It’s very important to influence people by writing well, talking well, or leading by example. Writing is a skill that’s often lost because today, many people graduate and think writing a tweet is a great sign of one’s writing ability.
I started relatively late in a professional sense. I’ve written five books now, but they didn’t start coming out until I was probably in my late 60s. I wish I had written books earlier in life. I just never took the time, and maybe I didn’t think I was a good enough writer or had anything worth saying. But now, I enjoy it. I’m working on two new books, and I hope to get them out in the next couple of years. It takes about a year and a half to write a book, at least the way I do it.
Alan Fleischmann
I want to hear about those two books. What are their titles and topics?
David Rubenstein
One of them is going to be about sports ownership—how I came to buy the Orioles, how I kind of stumbled into it, and how other people became sports owners. I’m interviewing them about how they enjoy ownership and how they came to do it. Another book is about my efforts to remind people of the history and heritage of the country, specifically relating to the Declaration of Independence and other things that sprang from it leading up to the 250th anniversary.
In 2026, we’ll celebrate what’s called the semiquincentennial—the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. I own more copies of the Declaration of Independence than, I think, any other American. I’ve bought many rare copies and have them on display around the United States. It’s been a document of great fascination to me, and I want to talk about why I’m so fascinated by it, why I’m trying to preserve it, and how I want to educate people more about it and other things that stemmed from it, like the Constitution and historic documents and buildings in Washington that I’ve been involved with.
Alan Fleischmann
How many Declarations of Independence are out there in the world?
David Rubenstein
Well, there are different models. There’s the original in the archives. Then there are a couple of broadsides, which are one-page documents printed up on July 5, 1776. Then there’s the version you might see in the New York Times every Fourth of July. That’s called a Stone copy, a perfect replica made in 1834 by a printer in Washington, Mr. Stone. About 200 of those were made, and roughly 100 are left. I own about 13 of them and have lent them out. These aren’t from 1776, but they’re perfect replicas of what was signed in August of 1776. The original document in July 1776 was never signed; it was later signed in August. The text was agreed upon by July 4.
Alan Fleischmann
It’s the greatest contract of democracy in so many ways.
David Rubenstein
No doubt.
Alan Fleischmann
Did you already have a love of history when you went on to practice law?
David Rubenstein
I wasn’t a great student in math or science, so I gravitated more toward English, history, and political science. I really did like history, but working in the White House as a young man strengthened that interest. When you work in the White House, you get a sense of history. You’re in the same building where so many famous people worked. Living in Washington, you see historic monuments and other significant sites.
If you live in England, people there might say, “You have nothing really old in the United States. It’s all from the 1700s or 1800s.” They have things from the 1200s or 1300s. But for America, these are historic buildings and documents, and I’ve been fortunate to be involved with many of them. Working in the White House definitely deepened my appreciation for these subjects.
Alan Fleischmann
I mean, I know that originally you guys got together, but it was to Eisenhower, who’s been on the show as well, and you worked together in the White House. When I think about the generation of people who worked 24/7—fully devoted to what they did at the time and what they should do even now when they’re young and doing things—you’re like a poster child to me. I think you even slept in your car. You slept at the White House.
David Rubenstein
I was single at the time, and my goal in life was to work at the White House. I had no bigger goal. I had no interest in making money. Money never meant anything to me. I finally got a job at the age of 27—the greatest job I thought I could ever get—being the deputy to the Domestic Policy Advisor, Stuart Eizenstat. So I literally worked around the clock for four years. Obviously, I didn’t do that well for the country. We got inflation at 19%, and Carter didn’t get reelected. But I loved what I was doing, and Stuart and I are still very good friends, more than 40-some years later.
Alan Fleischmann
Amazing. But tell us a little bit—when you think back now, because I would say President Carter, at 100 years old, is being celebrated not only for what he achieved after the White House—his values and sense of statesmanship—but he’s also now being recognized for some of the successes that were overlooked during the four years he was president.
David Rubenstein
He was president for four years, and because he didn’t get reelected, he wasn’t considered that successful in some ways. We often measure a president’s success by whether they got reelected or not. George Herbert Walker Bush didn’t get reelected, Jimmy Carter didn’t get reelected, and therefore they were viewed less favorably by historians. But now, as we look back, we say, “Wait a second. Carter got so many bills through Congress, and many of them are still very important.”
He did so many important things in international affairs. It’s pretty amazing compared to presidents today, who are happy to get a debt limit bill or appropriations bills through. You rarely see substantive legislation anymore. Carter’s problem was that he tried to get so many things through that by getting only half of it, people thought, “Well, look, he failed half the time.” But what he got through in those four years was quite amazing.
He didn’t realize how difficult it would be to get things through, so he just pushed and pushed and pushed. He never let up. He was only 52 when he was elected, 56 when he left, and he was a workaholic—always the smartest man in the room. I think he felt he probably was. He was a very, very smart man.
Since he left the presidency, he’s been out for 44 years. Many of the things he’s done since have gotten enormous acclaim, and he won the Nobel Peace Prize for some of them. But it’s really his presidency that’s now being reexamined. While it was only one-tenth the size of his post-presidency, he really did get a lot done.
Alan Fleischmann
Amazing. And also the quality of his stability—his deep faith and the way he carried himself in service. I don’t think anyone knew what Habitat for Humanity was until they met him or saw him. He didn’t just preach; he performed in a way that was authentic. He’s been a great role model ever since.
David Rubenstein
He’s a very religious man. Some presidents go to church on Sundays, but it’s not necessarily an important part of their lives. They might do it for public purposes to some extent. Carter, however, taught Sunday school virtually his entire life. Up until a few years ago, he was still teaching. He’s a deeply religious man—what he would call a born-again Christian. Faith is an important part of his life, and you have to admire that.
Alan Fleischmann
One thing people don’t necessarily recognize or recall is that his arch-enemy was Jerry Ford. Carter took the Ford presidency away from him, but they became extraordinarily close friends. If I’m not mistaken, when President Ford was close to his death, Carter, who was overseas, flew back to be by his friend’s bedside. There was a great friendship between the two of them.
David Rubenstein
That’s true. They had a bitter campaign. Gerald Ford didn’t really take Carter that seriously—he was a one-term southern governor. Ford was the incumbent president of the United States, had been a congressional leader for many years, and did a good job overcoming his connection to Nixon, which hurt him.
The pardon of Nixon, which probably helped the country, wasn’t very popular. Inflation was still very high, and Ford faced a real deficit at the time—he was 34 points behind at the start of the general election campaign. He only lost by one point. He did pretty well and probably would have won if the election had been a week later.
In the end, the bitterness of the campaign dissipated. After Carter left office, he and Ford became pretty friendly. This came about when Sadat was assassinated in the early Reagan administration. President Reagan sent a plane to the funeral with Nixon, Ford, and Carter on board. That was the first time Carter and Ford spent a lot of time together. They hadn’t known each other well before that. On the flight over and back, they bonded. From that time on, they did many things together.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s amazing. Before we jump into talking about your book, because I want to get into The Highest Calling, I’m curious—can you remind everyone here about how you never planned on being in the private sector? You’ve been extraordinarily successful with Carlyle. Your investment philosophy is often noted by many, but I’m curious, what was the impetus for building and leading Carlyle with your two co-founders? And am I right when I say that Carlyle—the name—came from the Carlyle Hotel?
David Rubenstein
Yes, that’s correct. Here’s what happened: I left the Carter White House in ignominy, you might say, because we lost the election. We were very soundly defeated by Reagan. A lot of people weren’t trying to hire Carter White House aides, so it took me a while to find a job. I didn’t want to tell my mother that her only child was unemployable, so I kept telling her I had so many offers I didn’t know which one to take. But after about six months of being unemployable, I finally got a law firm that felt sorry for me, and I started practicing law again.
But I really wasn’t that interested in the law. I didn’t like it; I didn’t enjoy what Washington lawyers had to do. I read about a man named Bill Simon who had done what was called a leveraged buyout, and he made $80 million on a $1 million investment in 18 months. I said, “I don’t know what a leveraged buyout is, but it sounds more interesting than practicing law.” So I decided to learn more about it, and I decided I’d set up the first private equity firm in Washington—with people that actually knew something about finance. I really didn’t know much about finance.
As for the name, one of my partners read a book about André Meyer, who was the head of Lazard Frères, a very famous investment banking firm in New York. André Meyer lived as a single man in the Carlyle Hotel and apparently had a very active social life there. My partner admired that social life, I guess you could say, so we named it Carlyle. It was available, simple, two syllables, and sounded British—like we had some class to us. And so, it took off.
Alan Fleischmann
Well, André Meyer was credited with taking Jackie Kennedy Onassis’s inheritance from Ari Onassis—$26 million—and turning it into several hundred million dollars. He’s at least credited for that.
David Rubenstein
Yes, I think he helped negotiate the agreement with Aristotle Onassis when Jackie married him, and then later, upon Onassis’s passing, she received some money. Meyer managed it, and she did well for herself.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s amazing. You’re listening to Leadership Matters on SiriusXM and at leadershipmattersshow.com. I’m your host, Alan Fleischmann, and I’m here with one of the great icons and legendary figures in public, private, and civil society—spanning philanthropy to Wall Street. David Rubenstein is the co-founder and co-chairman of The Carlyle Group, the owner of the Baltimore Orioles, and the bestselling author of many books. His newest book, also a bestseller, is The Highest Calling: Conversations on the American Presidency.
Let’s dive into your latest book. What made you want to write it? I love this book. I love all your books. My daughters, who are 20 and 17, have read at least three of them. My 17-year-old said this one is probably the most timely of all. She said, “We need to know where we come from to guide where we’re going.” It has a Kennedy-esque sense of aspiration—that public service is still a noble profession. I’m curious, where did that inspiration come from?
David Rubenstein
Well, I wish I could persuade my two daughters to read my books. I don’t think they’ve read any of them, but I should find out your secret.
Alan Fleischmann
Maybe the secret is putting them on the radio show—I don’t know.
David Rubenstein
I’ve tongue-in-cheek said for years that the highest calling of mankind is private equity. Obviously, it really isn’t. It’s a nice calling, but the highest calling in the world—leaving religious vocations aside—you could argue is being President of the United States.
The President of the United States is certainly the most powerful person in the world. That became evident when Woodrow Wilson went to Paris to negotiate the Treaty of Versailles at the end of World War I. He was cheered by hundreds of thousands of Parisians. He was the first sitting president to leave the country, and he spent six months in Paris. He was cheered the way Caesar must have been cheered when he returned to Rome after a great victory.
From that time on, it became clear that the President of the United States was the most powerful person in the world. From FDR’s time onward, it became even more evident. Today, people make incredible sacrifices to try to become president. Think about it: Why would someone spend two years of their life eating bad food, not exercising, barely seeing their family, begging for money, and risking their lives—just to get a job that most of them won’t get? Of the 1,000-plus people who’ve run for president in our country’s history, only 47 have made it.
Why do they do it? Because it’s the most powerful job in the world. But also think about what can happen once you get there: Kennedy was assassinated. Johnson was driven out of office. Nixon was forced out. Ford couldn’t get reelected. Carter couldn’t get reelected. Reagan was almost assassinated and later faced the Iran-Contra scandal. George H.W. Bush couldn’t get reelected. Clinton was impeached. It’s a tough job, yet people sacrifice so much to try to get it.
Alan Fleischmann
What I love about your books is that you have a strong thesis—a magnet that draws readers in. But then you create conversations. I’m curious, what inspired you to write The Highest Calling, and how did you approach structuring it?
David Rubenstein
A number of years ago, I started a program in Congress, and for 10 years, I’ve hosted a monthly dinner with a historian or someone knowledgeable about American history, the presidency, or politics. It’s exclusively for members of Congress and takes place at the Library of Congress, co-hosted with the Librarian of Congress. Just this week, we hosted Eric Schmidt—not about history but on artificial intelligence.
The concept is simple: members of Congress attend, and I ask them to sit with colleagues from the opposite party or house to foster connections. There’s no politicking, no press—just open, friendly discussions. It’s been a useful public service. After a couple of years of this, I took some of the interviews I had done, transcribed and edited them, and put them into a book called The American Story, which explores the history of the country.
I’ve found that this interview-based approach allows me to write books while balancing my other responsibilities. The process involves conducting interviews, editing them for clarity and brevity, grouping them under a common theme, and adding introductory chapters. That’s what I did with The Highest Calling. It’s about my fascination with the presidency, my own experiences at the White House, and insights from interviews with experts on presidents—from George Washington and Abraham Lincoln to living presidents like Donald Trump, Joe Biden, George W. Bush, and Bill Clinton.
The edited transcripts allow readers to almost hear the voices of the people being interviewed. For the audiobook, we include the actual recordings. It’s a unique experience since there are no interviews of figures like George Washington or Abraham Lincoln; the interview format didn’t exist centuries ago. So, I replicate it by speaking with scholars who deeply know these historical figures, asking them questions about how these presidents might have reacted to various situations.
For the presidents I’ve interviewed personally, their voices are included in the audiobook.
Alan Fleischmann
Was there anyone you wanted to interview for the book who said no?
David Rubenstein
No, people generally don’t say no. Timing issues sometimes come up, but I’ve been fortunate to have great participation. I’ll share one story: a good friend of mine, a well-known author, declined to have his interview included because he was releasing his own book on the same president. He didn’t want the two to compete. But overall, most people are very accommodating, especially since I know many of the historians and public figures I approach.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s amazing. What I love about your books is their broad appeal. Was there a specific audience you had in mind for this book?
David Rubenstein
I aim to reach people who aren’t scholars but are curious about the subject—people who want to learn about the presidents but don’t have the time or inclination to dive into exhaustive, detailed books. There are Pulitzer Prize-winning works on Washington, Lincoln, and others, but those are for readers who want to dig deeply into the material. My books are for the average person interested in the topic, written in an accessible way.
The interviews are edited to make them easy to read, and my style includes asking what I hope are interesting questions, often with a touch of humor to keep the conversations engaging.
Alan Fleischmann
Were there any surprises or consistent themes that emerged from these interviews? Considering the differences in age, experience, and political persuasion among your subjects, was there a unifying thread?
David Rubenstein
The common thread is how many small, often unknown events could have changed the course of history. For example, near the end of the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln rode on horseback in Northern Virginia with General Ulysses S. Grant and another general. They were joined by their wives. During the ride, Mrs. Lincoln became upset, believing the other general’s wife was flirting with Lincoln, and she scolded her publicly.
Mrs. Grant, appalled by the scene, decided she wanted nothing more to do with Mrs. Lincoln. The next day, Lincoln invited General Grant and his wife to join him at Ford’s Theatre. Mrs. Grant refused, insisting they leave Washington to visit their son in New Jersey. As a result, Grant’s usual 20-person military entourage wasn’t at the theatre.
If they had been there, it’s likely that Lincoln wouldn’t have been assassinated. One moment of anger from Mrs. Lincoln altered history.
Alan Fleischmann
Wow. So one, one angry moment from Mrs. Lincoln changed history.
David Rubenstein
The same kind of thing happened with President John F. Kennedy. He went to Texas for political fence-mending, visiting Houston, Austin, and Dallas. On the morning he arrived in Dallas, the Secret Service put the bubble top on the presidential limousine—a measure designed to protect against rain during the motorcade. Kenny O’Donnell, effectively President Kennedy’s chief of staff, saw the bubble top being put on and was asked whether it should remain, given the chance of rain. O’Donnell decided it wasn’t necessary, stating, “Let people see the President. He wants to be seen.” So, they removed the bubble top.
Had the bubble top remained, it’s likely the assassination wouldn’t have occurred. As we speak today, it is exactly 60 years to the day—November 22—that President Kennedy was assassinated. That one decision had profound consequences.
Alan Fleischmann
One decision, and Kenny O’Donnell likely carried the weight of that choice for the rest of his life.
David Rubenstein
He did, and some say it contributed to his struggles with alcoholism. I’m not an expert on his health, but it’s clear he lived with the consequences of that decision.
Alan Fleischmann
Tell us about the presidents who contributed to your book. Were there any fascinating anecdotes from your interviews, looking back on their presidencies or looking ahead at the country?
David Rubenstein
Let me share a bit about the four presidents I interviewed.
First, Bill Clinton. If you think about who gets to be President, especially in the 20th and 21st centuries, Bill Clinton stands out as someone who people might have predicted would ascend to the presidency. He was a student leader, involved in national student organizations, and later became a Rhodes Scholar. By contrast, most other modern presidents had modest beginnings, health challenges, or weren’t considered natural leaders in their youth. Clinton’s trajectory seemed more evident early on.
Joe Biden is another example. I spent an hour alone with him in the Oval Office for this book, and I’ve known him for years—he was the first senator to endorse Jimmy Carter during his presidential run. Biden’s journey is remarkable: he spent 47 years trying to become President, longer than anyone in U.S. history. He was elected to the Senate at 30 and ran for President twice before his successful 2020 campaign. That lifelong determination explains his eagerness to seek re-election despite his age.
As for George W. Bush, I knew his father, George H.W. Bush, very well. After leaving the presidency, Bush Sr. joined Carlyle as an advisor, and we traveled the world together. He was the kindest man I’ve ever met—not just the nicest president, but truly the nicest person. His son’s rise was unexpected. When George W. ran for Governor of Texas, even his parents didn’t think he would win. They had a plane ready to attend Jeb Bush’s victory party in Florida on the same night. But Jeb lost, and George W. won, surprising many. Bush’s self-deprecating humor, which I think he gets from his mother, makes him a very engaging figure.
Donald Trump is someone I’ve known for a long time. Before he was President, I interviewed him at the Economic Club of Washington. In the Green Room, he told me he planned to run for President. I remember asking, “President of what?” He replied, “President of the United States.” At the time, I didn’t think he could do it, but he proved me wrong. For this book, he gave me an hour of his time, despite being busy with his campaign.
Alan Fleischmann
I have a theory I’d like to get your perspective on. It seems like many presidents have had complex relationships with their parents, particularly their fathers. Bill Clinton grew up with a stepfather. Gerald Ford was originally named Leslie King Jr., after his biological father.
David Rubenstein
You’re right. Richard Nixon did not have a close relationship with his father, who was not seen as a very successful person and not a role model. Ronald Reagan’s father was more or less an alcoholic, and Reagan had to bail him out of situations many times and carry him home when his father was passed out drunk. Abraham Lincoln couldn’t stand his father—he hated him. George Washington’s father died when Washington was very young. Many presidents had strained or absent relationships with their fathers. Bill Clinton, as you point out, never knew his biological father, as he died before Clinton was born. So, there may be something to the idea that this dynamic drives people to strive harder if they don’t have a close paternal relationship. Maybe it’s a desire to prove something.
Alan Fleischmann
And that might be part of it too. Whatever the motivation, it’s always fascinating to see that tension. In the interviews you conducted with presidents in particular, was there something that surprised you in each one that you didn’t expect?
David Rubenstein
All the presidents I interviewed were gracious in giving me their time. I’ve known them all, so that familiarity can make an interview flow better since you don’t have to navigate the formalities of getting to know someone. I enjoyed those interviews greatly.
When it came to interviewing the scholars and experts for the book, the process was different. For each president, there are many great historians or experts, so I had to choose someone I knew or thought would offer a compelling perspective. For example, on George Washington, I interviewed the person who runs Mount Vernon, who is also a respected scholar of Washington.
For Abraham Lincoln, there are more books written about him than any other American. Instead of interviewing a historian I’d already worked with, like Doris Kearns Goodwin, I chose Ted Widmer, who wrote a fascinating book about Lincoln’s journey from Springfield to Washington for his inauguration. During that trip, Lincoln made 60 speeches and avoided assassination attempts, including one in Baltimore where he had to hide and travel secretly. People back then had no television or radio, so many Americans didn’t even know what Lincoln looked or sounded like. Interestingly, it was during this journey that Lincoln, who had grown a beard based on a letter from a young girl suggesting it would improve his appearance, met that same girl in person. That kind of anecdote offers a humanizing glimpse into these historical figures.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s amazing. How has the idea of presidential leadership evolved, especially as the world has become more interconnected? The president is often referred to as the most powerful person in the world—how has that role changed over time?
David Rubenstein
When the founding fathers designed the Constitution, they aimed for balance among the three branches of government. The first article of the Constitution focuses on the legislative branch, not the presidency, as they intended Congress to be the most powerful body. The presidency was meant to be an important executive role, but they didn’t want another king.
Initially, the presidency wasn’t very powerful. George Washington himself was frustrated by the limited authority of the role. For instance, the first and only time he went to Capitol Hill as president was to get his appointees confirmed. He was so disheartened by the complaints and treatment he received from the Senate that he vowed never to return—and he didn’t.
Over time, particularly from Franklin D. Roosevelt’s presidency onward, the role of the president expanded significantly. Today, the presidency has evolved into the dominant force in federal government, capable of wielding powers the founding fathers likely never imagined.
Alan Fleischmann
Do you think the founding fathers could have done more to ensure stronger checks and balances between the judicial, legislative, and executive branches?
David Rubenstein
Well, they could have done many things. Think about it—when the founding fathers were figuring out how to elect the president, they struggled to find a solution. There was concern that a popular vote would not favor the Southern states, where much of the population consisted of enslaved individuals who couldn’t vote. As a compromise, they created a system for congressional representation where enslaved people were counted as three-fifths of a person for apportionment purposes. This system influenced the creation of the Electoral College, which gave Southern states more representation because they included the enslaved population in their counts, even though enslaved individuals could not vote.
The Electoral College, in effect, helped perpetuate slavery, and while we encourage democratic governance, the United States has had instances where the system doesn’t align with a true popular vote. Five presidents have been elected without winning the popular vote. Recent examples include George W. Bush in 2000 and Donald Trump in 2016. Changing the Constitution to address this is nearly impossible, as it requires two-thirds approval in Congress and ratification by three-quarters of the states. So, while flawed, we’re likely stuck with the system.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s fascinating—and the idea of “pursuit of happiness” is another one people often misunderstand. It’s not about material wealth, right?
David Rubenstein
Exactly. The term “happiness” in the Declaration of Independence was used in the way it was understood in Europe at the time. It referred to satisfaction with one’s life and achieving a sense of purpose through meaningful contributions—not the fleeting emotion we associate with happiness today.
Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration, borrowed heavily from other sources—a practice considered honorable back then. He didn’t see it as plagiarism but as building on existing ideas. He drafted the Declaration in just a few days, and it was heavily edited by the Continental Congress, which upset him so much that he refused to publicly claim authorship for nine years. Only later, when the Declaration gained prominence, did Jefferson embrace his role as its author. He was so proud of it that he listed it first on his epitaph.
Alan Fleischmann
Speaking of historic documents, tell me about your collection—the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution. Do you value one over the other?
David Rubenstein
They all hold incredible value. One of the most significant items I own is the only privately held copy of the Magna Carta. There are 17 surviving copies from various iterations in the 1200s. Ross Perot purchased one from a family that had owned it for over 600 years, and I eventually acquired it. It’s now on permanent display at the National Archives. The Magna Carta heavily influenced the principles in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
I also own two souvenir copies of the Emancipation Proclamation. Lincoln signed 47 of these, which were sold for $10 each to support medical care for Civil War veterans. Only six were sold at the time, and today, around a dozen are known to exist.
Alan Fleischmann
And the Gettysburg Address?
David Rubenstein
There are five known copies of the Gettysburg Address, but none are in private hands. One is in the Lincoln Bedroom at the White House, two are at the Library of Congress, one is at Cornell University, and one is at the Lincoln Presidential Library in Springfield.
However, I do own a copy of the Lincoln-Douglas Debates, signed by Lincoln. He had an interesting habit—he usually signed documents as “A. Lincoln,” but for particularly significant ones, like the Emancipation Proclamation or the 13th Amendment, he signed “Abraham Lincoln.”
When Congress passed the 13th Amendment abolishing slavery, Lincoln signed it, even though the president doesn’t have a formal role in constitutional amendments. Congress admonished him for this, but it was a symbolic gesture of his commitment. I’m fortunate to own a copy of the 13th Amendment signed by Lincoln.
Alan Fleischmann
Oh, that’s amazing. That’s amazing. You know, one of the things I think we’re missing in society right now is civility and the sense of civics and understanding our history. That’s why your books matter so much to me. I buy many and share them wherever I can. You know, Thomas Jefferson, one of his great legacies that people don’t talk about as much, was his move to champion public education. I guess it was partly preemptive or maybe even out of nervousness, but he became a big backer of public education. That became a significant part of his legacy because he was worried about civics and preserving the values of American history. Tell us a little bit about that as a legacy, because I think it’s as relevant as ever.
David Rubenstein
In Jefferson’s case, one of the things he was most proud of was founding the University of Virginia. He believed that representative democracy could only function effectively with an informed citizenry. Jefferson wasn’t at the Constitutional Convention, but he corresponded with Madison during that time. He didn’t think the Constitution would last more than 20 years. In fact, he didn’t think that was necessarily a bad thing. He thought every generation should have the opportunity to revise it.
If Jefferson or the other Founding Fathers came back today, they’d likely be shocked that we’re still using the same document drafted nearly 250 years ago, with only 27 amendments—10 of which were part of the Bill of Rights. Jefferson believed in the need for education, but I’d argue that civic education is something we’ve let fall by the wayside. There’s been such a strong focus on STEM education, and fewer people are majoring in history.
When I was in college, about 8% of graduates majored in history; today, it’s closer to 2%. You can attend most colleges in the United States and graduate without ever taking an American history course. In about half of U.S. colleges, you can even major in history without studying American history. We’re not teaching it the way we once did, and that has consequences. We now have a relatively uninformed citizenry when it comes to understanding how our government functions. An informed citizenry is crucial for making government work better.
Another challenge is voter participation. While about two-thirds of eligible Americans vote, one-third don’t. That’s not ideal for a healthy democracy.
Alan Fleischmann
What are the lessons from past presidencies that future leaders—and current ones, both in the White House and in Congress—should take to heart? Across the interviews and books you’ve done, what advice stands out as particularly compelling?
David Rubenstein
Every presidency is shaped by unique circumstances, but there are timeless qualities and practices that make a difference. One key lesson is the importance of effectively communicating with the American people. Presidents who speak honestly and clearly build trust and foster understanding, even when addressing difficult topics. Honesty and transparency should be at the forefront.
Humility is another important trait. While not all presidents are known for it, humility allows leaders to acknowledge mistakes and grow from them. Lincoln is a great example of this. He didn’t walk around the White House boasting about winning the Civil War or issuing the Emancipation Proclamation. He remained humble throughout his leadership, and that humility served him well.
Finally, presidents should always prioritize what’s right for the country over personal or political gain. Their focus should remain on serving the nation’s best interests, even when it’s not the most expedient or popular choice.
Alan Fleischmann
Are there changes you think should be made to the Constitution today? The last constitutional amendment was in the early 1990s. With the erosion of trust in institutions, is there something that could make the Constitution more responsive or better protected?
David Rubenstein
Well, the last amendment to the Constitution is known as the Madison Amendment. When James Madison was trying to get the Constitution ratified, there was significant opposition from the states. Ratification wasn’t an easy process. One of the key objections was the lack of a Bill of Rights. Initially, Madison opposed including a Bill of Rights, arguing it wasn’t necessary since state constitutions already included them. However, he eventually recognized that promising a Bill of Rights was essential to securing ratification.
As a member of the first Congress, Madison drafted what became the Bill of Rights. Originally, there were 47 proposed amendments, which were whittled down to 12. Those 12 were sent to the states for ratification, but only 10 were approved at the time—these became the first 10 amendments. Of the two rejected amendments, one dealt with reapportionment, and the other, the so-called Madison Amendment, was ratified much later in 1992 as the 27th Amendment. It stipulates that members of Congress cannot vote themselves a salary increase that takes effect before the next election. In essence, it ensures voters have a chance to weigh in before salary increases take effect.
If I were to suggest amendments to the Constitution today to make the country better, I would consider rethinking the Electoral College. While I understand the arguments on both sides, a direct election system might better reflect the democratic will of the people. Another issue I would address is the influence of money in politics. Currently, spending on elections is protected as a form of free speech under the Constitution. However, we’re now spending $7–8 billion on presidential elections, which is unprecedented and problematic. No other country spends as freely on elections as the United States does. If I could amend the Constitution, I would aim to reduce the influence of money in our electoral process.
Alan Fleischmann
Being a student of George Washington, you’ve mentioned him a bit already, but I’d love to hear your thoughts on his greatest legacy. When you look at all the presidents, and after speaking with historians and the presidents themselves, does it leave you with optimism about the presidency despite the challenges the system faces today? Or do you feel like the system is starting to falter?
David Rubenstein
No country or system of government is perfect, including ours. That said, the United States has, through the Constitution, managed to become the most powerful country in the world. While our system has its challenges, it functions reasonably well overall. Of course, there’s room for improvement, and constitutional amendments might address some of these issues, but the foundation is solid.
One of the most optimistic aspects of America is its immigrants. Currently, the United States has 49 million immigrants—far more than any other country. Germany, the second-highest, has around 5 million. Immigrants often believe most strongly in the American Dream and bring a tremendous sense of optimism and opportunity to this country. While there are legitimate concerns about illegal immigration, particularly at the southern border, immigrants overwhelmingly see America as a land of possibility.
Interestingly, people born in the United States sometimes believe less in the American Dream than immigrants do. Despite that, the concept remains alive, as immigrants continue to work hard and thrive, often rising from modest beginnings to achieve remarkable success. It’s a testament to what this country still represents for many around the world.
Alan Fleischmann
So is the American Dream, at its heart, still about creating a place where people can rise and succeed regardless of where they come from?
David Rubenstein
Yes, absolutely. The term “American Dream” was coined in the 1930s and embodies the idea that anyone, no matter their circumstances, can rise through hard work and determination. The story of people like Abraham Lincoln, who rose from poverty to become president, or business leaders like Elon Musk, who came to this country as an immigrant and is now one of the world’s wealthiest people, reflects this ideal.
However, the belief in the American Dream is more prevalent among immigrants than among some who are born here. Certain barriers, like systemic inequities tied to race or ethnicity, make it harder for some people to rise. Even so, the American Dream remains a powerful idea that inspires many.
Alan Fleischmann
One last question. If someone wanted to make a real difference—whether by running for public office or even aiming for the presidency—what’s the single most important trait they’d need in today’s world, where social media captures every moment and scrutiny is constant?
David Rubenstein
Well, there’s no one thing, but the thing I would hope that somebody would have is integrity and generally have a feeling that they want to be President of the United States because they want to do the right thing for the country, to make the country better—not to make themselves wealthier or happier in some ways, but to do something that they think is helpful for the country. Integrity and a commitment to honest behavior, I think, are among the best qualities people should consider. You know, one person once told me when I was starting the practice of law, the head of the firm said, “It takes you a lifetime to build your reputation and five minutes to destroy it.” And so, don’t take unethical behavior, don’t take the path of least resistance. Always try to do something that, if it’s exposed on the front page of The New York Times or The Washington Post, you won’t be embarrassed.
Alan Fleischmann
If you’ve been listening to Leadership Matters, I’m your host, Alan Fleischmann. We just spent the last hour—and I wish it were two hours—with David Rubenstein, the co-founder and co-chairman of The Carlyle Group, an amazing philanthropist, a person who puts his money where his mouth is in the most humble of ways. He cares about this country, and his latest book, The Highest Calling: Conversations on the American Presidency, is a must-read. I would urge every one of our listeners to buy it, read it, and share it. Buy many copies and share it with your loved ones, because at this stage and where we are, we all need to be hopeful that our leaders of tomorrow are because of us and that we’re actually helping elect them. David, you are such a great iconic example to so many, and you lead your life with such humility. I’m so happy to hear that there are two more books in the lineup, which means you’ll be back on to talk about those, too. But it is such a pleasure to talk about you and read the book. Thank you and good luck.
David Rubenstein
Thank you very much for having me. Thank you.
Alan Fleischmann
My pleasure. See you soon. Thanks so much. Bye-bye.