Jesper Brodin
CEO of INGKA Group (IKEA)
Doing the right thing for people and for the planet isn't contradictory to business. It actually helps you to lower your costs, improve your quality, drive motivation, and build your brand.
Summary
This week on “Leadership Matters,” Alan discussed the vision and leadership behind one of the world’s most famous and beloved furniture stores with Jesper Brodin, the chairman and CEO of IKEA. Since taking the helm of Ikea’s parent company, INGKA, in 2017, Jesper has led the global retail giant into a new age of sustainability and ethical leadership that serves both people and the planet.
During their conversation, Jesper shares his insights on the importance of sustainability and his value-based leadership style. Together, he and Alan explore Jesper’s upbringing on the west coast of Sweden, humble beginnings as an assistant to the co-founders of IKEA, involvement in sustainable climate initiatives, and the lessons he has learned about leading the charge for a more sustainable path forward for businesses everywhere.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
Guest Bio
Jesper Brodin is the CEO of Ingka Group. His career with IKEA spans over 20 years, and he stepped into his current role in September 2017.
Before being appointed CEO, Jesper was Managing Director at IKEA of Sweden/Range & Supply, which is responsible for the development of the product range and supply chain of the IKEA Brand.
Jesper’s career at IKEA started in 1995 with a purchase manager role in Pakistan; not long after that he became Regional Purchase Manager for South East Asia. In 1999, he took on the assignment of assistant, both to IKEA founder Ingvar Kamprad and to Anders Dahlvig, who was CEO at that time.
As a leader, Jesper is known for his belief in values-based leadership and for his emphasis on togetherness, saying: “The power is where the people are. Believe in yourself and your strengths, but don’t forget to rely on other people’s strengths, too. Because we’re truly stronger together.” Jesper’s vision for Ingka Group spotlights sustainable development. He is a member of the World Economic Forum, advocating for wider climate commitments across the global retail sector.
Jesper was born in Gothenburg, Sweden, and holds a Master’s degree in Industrial Engineering from Chalmers University of Technology, Sweden. Married with three children, he fills his spare time with sailing and music: “To play the guitar is my yoga. I do it every day.”
Episode Transcript
Alan Fleischmann
I am joined today by a visionary leader and enterprising CEO who has revolutionized the way people around the world turn their houses into a home through his businesses retail furniture model. Jesper Brodin is the CEO of INGKA Group, the parent company of the beloved home furniture brand IKEA. Jesper has been with IKEA for nearly 30 years, and started his career with the company as a purchase manager in Pakistan. Throughout his many roles at the company, his work has been geared toward expanding the company's reach, and creating new opportunities for it to thrive. Jespers, is also a Global Climate Champion, and often advocates for solutions to the ongoing climate crisis on the world's biggest stages, including at COP 28, just a week ago. He's an active campaigner for more protective environmental policies, a strong supporter of the Paris Climate Agreement, and its framework and is a regular contributor at convenings like COP, all over the world. Since taking the helm as CEO of INGKA, Jesper continues to guide IKEA towards its goals of becoming climate positive by 2030. I am excited to have Jesper show today to learn more about his early life and influences his career and leadership at IKEA, and the lessons in leadership he has learned along the way. Jesper, it is such a pleasure to have you on, and welcome to Leadership Matters.
Jesper Brodin
Right. Thank you, Alan. It's amazing what a summary. I have nothing to add. So let's see how this goes.
Alan Fleischmann
Exactly! I love it. I know I'm so excited to have you. When I saw you recently, overseas, I was so happy to see you, because I've been looking forward to this so much. And, I've been following your leadership and so many friends. So I think it's gonna be great to dive in to hear about your journey. But let's start with that journey a little bit. You know, your early life, you were born in Gothenburg and raised on the West Coast of Sweden. We tell us a little bit about your childhood and your experiences growing up there. What was life like round the house? And the brothers and sisters. Tell us a little.
Jesper Brodin
Well, actually it was. Yeah, I smile when I think of my childhood, it was a good one when we were growing up. My father was an artist and teacher in art. My mother worked at a travel agency, we were a typical, I think middle class family. These are the two sisters, one younger one, one older, which explains my diplomatic skills maybe. And then I think, you know, when I think back to those days, there were a lot of, if I would summarize it, there was some sort of, you know, promise that things would get better. And what's economical development in the product world where we were living, there were problems, but things got better the 80s, the fall of the Berlin Wall, etc. So to say the borders opening, collaboration, opportunities, and so forth. So I think the most optimistic time to to to grow up and being less connected and then a kid so today, I think to to all sorts of calamities in the world, I remember it as a bright time of my life, I must say,
Alan Fleischmann
Were there brothers and sisters and cousins where you had a lot of family around you as well?
Jesper Brodin
We all were a tight family, we've always been together. So that means for instance, now, as we had an intimate celebration, this is our year to host the whole family. So we will have ranging from the oldest, the eldest will be 88 years old. And the youngest might be zero because my sister's daughter is pregnant, and she's due on the same day as we have the party. So I'm a little bit nervous about that. But we are definitely a big big family and we are quite tight together I would say.
Yeah, and I think you know, I'm not brought up with a silver spoon. And brought up in a place where you know, if you wanted something you had to, to work for it. You need to strive for yourself, so to speak, and create your own pathway in life. And that has been with me ever since I think.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that I love that actually, you know where you come from local, you know where you come from, which is amazing. You know, as you grew up, I was thinking about people who eventually studied Industrial Engineering. I know we'll get there in a minute. But, you know, when I think of engineers, I think of people who love to fix things. I'm just curious as you were growing up, looking back at your journey… is that true? Even when you were a young person growing up, you knew that there were things that attracted you to fix things. And are there sides and glimpses of you today that you can see and were there mentors along the way that actually expose you to things that led you to where you were?
Jesper Brodin
When I say I had to I had to fix things from the start when I think back on my school years I had, I was basically with having really tremendous teachers. When I look back at school age, comparing it with some of my friends, I had the type of teachers who came to work to try to inspire the kids to, to acquire knowledge and to discover the world and all sorts of phenomenons. I think that school was something interesting for me.
What I started to do in those states already was to start a tradition that I've been continuing. I'm a collector of heroes in my life. So I'd say, so we're role models, so whatever you'd like to say. So I think I had a teacher called Arnault, we had him six topics, that gets cooled down. And he was like, he was one of the most interesting and inspiring leaders I ever met. Actually, he could make the dullest topic seem fascinating and interesting, to me and others as well.
And ever since I think I've been, you know, exposed to challenges and dilemmas in life, I've always had the opportunity to recollect people that I admire, and thereby ask myself, you know, how would they approach this situation and thereby, such an increase in my courage, I guess, and my imagination of how to resolve things, that for sure. These were great. Yes. And I do like Come come with a bit of a practical side, as you said, because when I was growing up, it was basically a lot of hands-on games, and a lot of hands-on interest as well. And so when I, when I actually applied to IKEA, many years later, one of the reasons why I was looking at IKEA, not knowing as, as I know today about the vision and many other things, it was the tangibility, if that's a word, of furniture and design and, versus working with code or, or abstract things. This was something I really was drawn to from my early days.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that it tells a little bit about your university, you went, you went to, is it called? Cha-lmers University?
Jesper Brodin
Yep!
Alan Fleischmann
At Chalmers University of Technology, which I know has got a great reputation. And so you studied Industrial Engineering, what made you know, the whole idea of engineering was right for you? I get that from your childhood as you were just describing, did you have an idea that you wanted to be an engineer growing up itself? Or was it again, the mentors and the people that directed you mainly out there?
Jesper Brodin
Now, to be honest, I think, you know, as many people are, in that age, looking at my own kids in this age, when you're in the early 20s, or just before your exposed to that wonderful situation that the world is, everything is ahead of you, you have time you have opportunities, and you have absolutely no clue what you're gonna do in life. So it was for me. So the choice of industrial economy, a challenge, was a rational one. So it's basically an MBA program that combines engineering, economics, management, so it gives a very broad, good starting point, I think, and it's a well recognized experience from University in Sweden as well. What actually happened halfway seen, to be honest, I actually felt I lacked the application of practice. So I actually decided to take a year on break. After two years in university, I started to work for a group of hotels, and I got the opportunity to, as a very young man, and very inexperienced to build up purchasing for hotels for the Best Western chain in Sweden.
Nobody had done that before in Sweden, there was a very visionary CEO, who'd been to the US and observed that one of the greatest benefits for hotel chains was not necessarily the marketing, but actually the supply chain opportunities. So he asked me if I could have a look at that. And that became, I think I worked for four years, setting that up. And so what happened was, I continued to study parallel. And I always reflect back and say, “Would I recommend that to anybody”? Because on one hand, there were incredibly stressful moments, I have to admit, having both late nights, studies and then of course, full days at work. On the other hand, it was interesting, because, for me, at least, the combination of theory and practice was fantastic. So I think, on several occasions, I enjoyed the theory more than some of my friends at university because I actually had an idea of how I could apply it in my daily routine. But then again, I took a bit more than an extra year to finish my studies. And that last year, was a little bit of a struggle, I have to admit, but that was the path that I took those early days
Alan Fleischmann
To work and study at the same time is never easy. I know when you were growing up, I know that your love of nature, the environment was a big part of your growing up. But I'm curious what that while you were at university– you're a big sailor, right? I think that's a big, big part of your growing up as well. If you could tell me a little bit about those experiences. And you know, is that where it all began?
Jesper Brodin
I think so. You know, Gothenburg is on the Swedish west coast, that stretches from Gothenburg to Oslo in Norway, the coastline there is, I think, fairly unique in the world. It is an archipelago of graphite, rocky island sand. It's very rich in adventure opportunities, if you say that. It can be rough, and stormy, but it can also be incredibly calm and beautiful. In summer, I spent at least two months every summer on the coast. And it was basically I can't remember any day that we wouldn't be outdoors, sailing, windsurfing, kayaking, climbing mountains, and such.
Those summers, we were a group of 20 kids to basically hang together. We met our parents for the meals, I think. And then we were basically out there enjoying nature. And that was very, that was basically for me, me and my love for nature and those holidays. And it took me also to several adventures when it comes to sailing. I had the opportunity as quite young to actually join a boat sailing to the West Indies and sailing back across the Atlantic. So I had the opportunity to start to say use that experience to a bit of a bigger adventure later in life as well.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. Where did you start your career at IKEA? You know why Karachi, Pakistan? How did that happen? That was not what I would have ever guessed for you.
Jesper Brodin
The true story. It's an interesting one, I was done with my studies, and after a couple of years working with the hotel business, I was more or less at a point where it was time for me to move on. Me and my wife, we had an idea that we would maybe move to Stockholm or London or Paris or something more exciting.
And then one day at work, I was reading the newspaper that IKEA was looking for a country manager for the purchasing office in Pakistan that was newly established. I thought about it and I decided not to apply. When I came home, my wife had the same newspaper, and she advised me to apply. So actually she was the brave one. So this will be a fantastic adventure. I did apply for the job. I think I went for three or four interviews from February until I think actually the beginning of May. And for every interview, when I came to IKEA to visit the head office in Sweden, those days, meeting leaders, I got more and more intrigued by the company and started to realize that there is more than I knew about IKEA about the culture, about the ownership, about the vision, about the values. So my eagerness to join became greater and greater. And I was a bit surprised eventually when I was offered the job at 26 years old, 25 or 26 years old. And I What happened? We moved to Karachi in August ‘95.
And one year later, in August ‘96, my manager from Singapore joined me for a meeting and I decided to ask him how come you pick me with no experience with IKEA, no experience from Asia and no connection to Pakistan whatsoever. And then he told me I was the only one who applied for the job. So that's actually how I started. So it tells me a little bit that sometimes life is full of you know, opportunities and you need to combine, I think a little bit having the drive and the eagerness to do something, but also be a little bit lucky from time to time. It was a wonderful way to start in a company far away in a very challenging environment. And I would say from a business perspective, both the challenging but also phenomenal opportunity to to make an imprint from the early days.
Alan Fleischmann
And was that the first time you had lived outside of Sweden?
Jesper Brodin
It was, actually. I had been traveling in my younger years and been spending quite a lot of time abroad but never established myself in another place. So that was a big adventure. And it was, if I'd compare going from Sweden to Pakistan there is no book or manual that can help you deal with the culture shock. It was wonderful and scary at the same time.
Alan Fleischmann
How long did you live in Pakistan?
Jesper Brodin
I stayed there for I think it was, a little bit less than three years. After much we moved on to Jakarta, Indonesia in Southeast Asia for a similar length of period. And yeah, continue the adventure.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, I love that. And I love the idea of what you just said a minute ago that you were the only one that applied to this position, you always have to speak up and say you want something in life, raise your hand, and then realize that, frankly, everyone's raising their hands, but they're not.
Jesper Brodin
I remember, back then, that the first step was the most difficult. That's how I reflect on it. It was a huge step, there was a lot of anxiety. There was a lot of self reflection, I had moments where I felt incredibly small in the first weeks or months, but then after that, you know, all the consecutive steps in life as compared to going from Sweden to Pakistan, has seemed exciting, but never was as big as that step was in life, I must tell you.
Alan Fleischmann
So let's talk a little bit about when you went from Pakistan, you mentioned you went to become the Supply Manager in Southeast Asia. You know, again, new position, new place, new adapting. Were there themes in your job that you took? Were there opportunities that you saw in both?
Jesper Brodin
I would say, yes, some five, six years in total. And if there were a couple of themes these days when IKEA was expanding its purchasing outside of Europe. So we established ourselves in many places in Asia, it was a time of incredible entrepreneurship. We had it as a business as a sport, I would say there was max, there were double digit numbers, great opportunities for the people that we develop the business, the industrialists, that we develop business together with them for IKEA.
So I've never, ever experienced such a lovely business case and opportunities as those days. I think when I started in Pakistan, we had about .8% of IKEA textile business. And after two and a half years, we had more than 30% of the textile business in Pakistan. So it was Klondyke from a business perspective. At the same time, there were deep dilemmas regarding environmental issues and social issues. I was obviously inexperienced in those topics. But nevertheless, not numb to them. And there were some deep, complex concerns and dilemmas that, you know, put us and me in a position to really question those days if we were doing the right thing, which led us actually to develop a code of conduct in IKEA, which started there, and actually then actually, which I still believe, unfortunately, we are one of the networks and companies that has the most ambitious code.
A lot of companies are actually using IKEA’s code today with their suppliers. But we started back in the mid 90s. And we conclude some 10 years later, setting, I think exceptional standards both on sustainability and when it comes to people and planet. So for me, it was forming in the sense that doing the right thing for people and for the planet isn't, unlike I thought, and I think a lot of people still believe, it's not contradictory to business, but it's actually helping you to lower your costs, improve your quality, drive motivation, build your brand. And those states were absolutely forming for me in understanding that concept.
Alan Fleischmann
That's amazing. And you obviously got noticed, because your next job was for you to also concurrently serve as the Assistant to the former CEO of IKEA, Anders Dalvig and Co-Founder Ingvar Kamprad, I guess Ingvar Kamprad. And how did you get that stint in the CEOs office? And how did that happen? And you obviously were noted as being someone who was up and coming and being very, very good at what you were doing or you wouldn't have been in that situation to be in the Office of the CEO.
Jesper Brodin
I think so. But when I got the question, I was deeply surprised. I'd met Ingvar one time in Singapore on a business trip, and now I actually recall, but I said hello to him. He asked me what I did. I said I work in Pakistan. And then he asked me what I've done, what wrong I've done in life. So that was his first comment. He had a warm sense of humor, but I only met him once basically before I got the opportunity. So obviously, I think somebody recognized the business performance and the result that we and I were bought off, then I think Ingvar was curious about the entrepreneurship in me. And he maybe saw something that was exciting and maybe reminded him a little bit about himself.
In those days in Asia, we basically didn't overthink things. When we saw an opportunity, we went for it. And we made a lot of mistakes. But we also created some quite impressive results. Those days. So, somebody got their eye on me. And I had the opportunity to, I think, yeah, for three years working with Ingvar. And the CEO, understandably, was, I think, the best school I've ever had in my life. By far.
Alan Fleischmann
That's amazing. And then working with one of the founders, obviously, and the CEO did that impact your leadership skills as well? I mean, you know, certainly it did for your perspective, and I'm sure you draw from it, you know, even now as the CEO. But I'm curious, also, whether you developed certain leadership skills during that period, you know, by being exposed to them, and I'm sure you brought your innate instincts to their lives, as well. I'm curious what you felt you were holding and developing there as well.
Jesper Brodin
I mean, these were days, these were fun days, these days.
Alan Fleischmann
What years are these, for example?
Jesper Brodin
I started in November ‘99. And I moved on in November 2002. So it took three years, actually. And it was amazing. It was one of those strange positions as an Assistant, what do you do that and I remember traveling the first time within my campground, and I felt fairly useless. What could I do for him? So I thought at least I could carry his bag. So as always, we traveled economy class and waited for the luggage, the luggage belt. I thought to myself, at least I can carry his bag, but he was actually quicker. So he grabbed his bag, and mine said, Now I don’t even have to wait, and then he ran away. So it's not even that. But you know, from a leadership perspective, I think there were a couple of things that were significant for me those days.
One was, and I tried to say that to young people out there, that I had a misconception about the top leaders, what they will be like, I think I was looking for perfection somehow. And Ingvar was many things but nothing about him was perfect. He was incredibly human. He was emotional. He made mistakes. He had human sides of him, like, like you and me, and everybody that I didn't think was, you know, part of that level of leadership. But it was his dedication and his enormous energy and passion to continue to drive for what he believed in that stood out. And so to say, I have the opportunity as thirty-something, to realize, these are the most important skills in leadership. So since then, I've dropped everything about perfection and tried to work with movement and momentum and passion in my line of work. And another thing that I think was important for me quite well, it was, of course, coming in touch with those types of leader, and that level of leadership puts I think, you to test when it comes to integrity, there is a risk, of course, you become an instrument and just a “yes-sayer”, you can get seduced by the attention you can draw to yourself and so forth. So I think it was a test for me to try to remind myself who I am, and build my leadership from who I am not to anybody else, or our rounding or such. That is something I think is one of the most important things for me from those days.
Alan Fleischmann
Did you actually during that time, find yourself saying, gosh, I'd like to be CEO one day.
Jesper Brodin
You know, there was, of course, a tradition in IKEA. Since a couple of years back, they're actually my manager, the CEO at that time had been assistant some, some 10-15 years before. So there was a tradition to use this platform to basically develop the future leaders of the company.
And also on that point, and also I have some discussions with my wife, who is very wise. There was a moment as well where I asked: “should I be more tactical now? Should I be more political? Should I position myself?” and I decided then that's an opportunity but it needs to be based on my own, you know, energy but not building it on an inverse presence, but also my own result, which actually made after a few years, decided to leave the job.
Ingvar was very upset with me. When I left, he didn't speak to me for six months. But I actually went to a job within IKEA working building up the kitchen division, and in another part of IKEA. And because I saw that was the place that would make me happy, and would expand my capabilities as a leader, which will also be, if you like, a sort of a sidestep in the organization. I got advice as a very young person which was also “to never live in the next job”. And I think that is quite common for people, young people today to try to overthink the next step of your career. I always try to give the advice to focus on what you do now and try to do that well. And the reason why that is a good idea, is because you actually focus on the things that people will recognize you for anyhow. And secondly, you bring more happiness to yourself by not worrying too much about the next step. So that's actually how I did it and I've tried to keep the thought about the next step away, until this day.
Alan Fleischmann
It's amazing. During the next period, let’s talk about courage, by the way, for you to say I'm going to break away from what was probably a pretty amazing experience being in the Office of the CEO to say I want to get back into the business part. You spent time with China during the next phase too? That was the beginning of your time going back and forth from China.
Jesper Brodin
That was a little exciting, very exciting step-and-carry, also maybe not the straight line up, it was a bit of side move within the company, we had for years been building up our activities in China purchasing supply chain was first, but we have started the first staggering steps of building up retailing in China back then, 2008. And we got that we were basically stuck in old strategies, old structures. And for us, the miracle of China has stopped working, it worked for other companies. And I got the assignment, the change assignment basically to figure out why and I am with the support of the group management at that time, and lead the change process of how we would set ourselves up for the future. It was, looking back at it, it was quite exciting. These were the days where we went from no commitment to a full commitment on retail building three stores per year, we invested in our own industry, we built up Test Lab Distribution channels, we set up actually a product development and design office.
So we basically brought in all the capabilities of IKEA into China those years. It was the first time I had a bigger geographical organization. And it was actually the first time I had to deal with redundancies and changing of structures, which was a necessity, which was quite difficult for me after seeing the beginning. But but it was such an incredible experience, both from a business perspective but also to have the opportunity to be exposed to yet another culture and find out how we reflect ourselves and operate and coexist in another dimension.
Alan Fleischmann
It's amazing, actually. And then were you based back then in Sweden, again? Were you actually at home?
Jesper Brodin
We are based in Hong Kong, we had our trading office, the central office in Hong Kong. And as I recall it I was sometimes in the office on Fridays otherwise Monday to Thursday at least that would be in Shanghai, Beijing, Charmin, Qingdao etc, or in other parts of the IKEA world, but it was a lot of traveling. I found out China is a pretty large country.
Alan Fleischmann
Yes, it is. And when you were kids born during that time, my kids were made and born in Älmhult in a small city of Älmhult where IKEA actually started. Some 8000 inhabitants live in the forest, deep forest of southern Sweden. And we used to say there was nothing else to do so that's where we got our three kids from. But then of course to China and Hong Kong and so their first memories I would say are from Hong Kong and those happy days as a family.
Alan Fleischmann
And after Hong Kong, where did you go?
Jesper Brodin
So basically after Hong Kong went back to Sweden. I took on a job as supply chain manager responsible for IKEA and about a year after I think I got the opportunity to lead the range and supply part of IKEA which basically stem product development overseeing the total offer of IKEA and then the supply of it worldwide, which was a super exciting assignment the company's called IKEA Sweden, it is in a way you can say the heart of IKEA is we, we don't buy products for somebody else we develop and design our own products. So this was the place where we had all of that creativity, design engineering, which I love, from a problem solving and design perspective. So these were, I think, about six years of leading that activity in and out of Älmhult in Sweden.
Alan Fleischmann
And I guess from there, you were still traveling constantly, as well.
Jesper Brodin
As often as I could!
Alan Fleischmann
That's amazing. That your leadership style has been characterized as being very “value-based”, I actually refer to it very much as being “values based” as well. So it was interesting when I was hearing you talk about, your predecessors, there's an emphasis on this idea of togetherness, when you're talking about your leadership style, I actually read a really nice quote from you, that encapsulates this idea pretty well:
“the power is where the people are, believe in yourself and your strengths. But don't forget to rely on other people's strengths, too, because we're really, truly stronger together”.
And love that quote, explain a little bit about those speeds, you know, your definition of your leadership, I'd love to hear, it's hard to talk about yourself. But I'd love to hear that. Am I right, when I say it's not just value based, but values based as well. And this concept of togetherness.
Jesper Brodin
You know, I found over the years that IKEA has a set number of values that have been developed, or at least the values that we have found important for us over the years. And I found it incredibly interesting, because I’ll give you two examples. First of all, I think we are taught that organizations need to be driven by hierarchy, which I think is obviously there is a necessity of having structure, not anarchy to any organization. But from there on, I find it incredibly modern. As soon as you can work with engaging people, their passion, their competence, the reliance on structure and hierarchy becomes less important. And what you find is 100 fold, unleash of energy really. And I can give you one example, when during the pandemic, I had the opportunity to meet a journalist. I think it was in May, a few months only into the pandemic, and that scaring a period for all of us, I think globally.
For us as humans and also as leaders. In that time, the journalist actually asked me, he had done some research and he said, “How can you have outperformed so many other companies in speed decision making and coming back on your feet, basically, in those times? I hadn't had time to do so much external benchmarking. So it was a bit new to me. But what I realized was at that time, that the IKEA organism, if you like, the question from the journalist, was, “how did you take the right decisions during that time”? And what I realized was that the organization was not paralyzed. A lot of organizations that are driven by strong hierarchies, and a top down, typically in times of crisis, get paralyzed, because you're more afraid of making mistakes, when the stakes are higher.
For us at IKEA, to be honest, when the pressure was on, people knew they had the privilege to make decisions, which meant that we set some compass directions, we told the organization, we don't have a map for this situation, we need to rely on common sense. And the only thing we shouldn't do is to be paralyzed, we need to take action and follow what we think is right for business and for our hearts with people. And it was a converging timing, we all came to similar conclusions along the first weeks amongst there. But it turned out that if you like the value of togetherness, the value of taking responsibility was an incredibly more than important part of unleashing the power of the organization. And for me, you know, if you look at it today, we have 170,000 people in the organization. Everybody's educated, everybody's engaged. Everybody has a contribution. Very seldom when I travel alone, and I meet hordes of co-workers, young people in Korea, in the US, in Sweden, and I ask them questions, they ask me questions. I ask them questions, the questions that I have in my supervisory board, and the quality of the answers is phenomenal. So again, don't underestimate the power of the intellectual capacity and understanding that the answers are actually out there if you care to listen.
Alan Fleischmann
It's amazing. And I'm sure they're what I love about this as a concept is sort of what we do as a global company. And you could argue there's one culture that brings everyone together, at IKEA and around the world. But the idea that, that the idea of togetherness and this idea of being vulnerable together that you're describing earlier, you know, that is a concept that's relatable in all corners of the globe. And I'm sure that people appreciate that, it goes back to the idea of teamwork. And how do you build this idea that we're better together, if we're open and honest, and, and share with?
Jesper Brodin
What you’re talking about I think, it has to be part of the modern leadership. And it's just a strong encouragement to any new leader out there. The idea that strength or having all the answers or avoiding vulnerability would be a good idea, it's a dead end street, right, it can lead you to maybe some forceful decisions, and if you're lucky to have a phenomenal leader on the top, then maybe we'll do one or two things, right. My leadership style and the leadership style we advocate at IKEA is more, by being vulnerable, we can open up for the things that not only we are amazed about, the things that we are afraid of, the things that we are concerned about. And by opening up and providing dialogue, we provide an collective intellectual platform that is so much richer, right than by having one or a few people representing the idea of what is the right thoughts, and what is the right direction. And therefore, I can share that too. Because these are, of course, insights that might seem for a lot of people listeners as absolutely obvious. It hasn't been to me. And the last time I had the wake up call on this was actually when I took this job seven years ago.
I decided to do a road trip. It was almost a month, and it was around the world actually. So I went to a place I can't remember, I think it was some 10 or 12 IKEA countries. And the idea was to listen to customers and listen to coworkers to pick up on. Where are we? What do we think is important? What do we need to do? Three fairly simple questions. And the interesting thing was, there were many interesting things, but the interesting thing was all the answers were out there. And secondly, the answers were the same in Japan, Poland, Spain, Canada, etc. So that it was truly a global unity around what was important and what actually IKEA needed to do to go ahead.
So what happened was coming back from that trip to my management group, I'd provided some sort of travel report, in a graphical way. And there and then we realized that was the new strategy. So the travel report actually became our strategy, which we call “10 Jobs in Three Years”, we've been we've now basically concluded the third, no, let me see the second sprint and heading for a third sprint of often action based strategy if you like, but it's always based on collective, the collective brain. So to say, not consultants are a few people at the top deciding, and I found that quite interesting.
Alan Fleischmann
Love that, as I love the fact that you bring up your mentors a lot. You know, one of the things I understand is that one of your mentors gave you, you know, advice that has helped guide you, during your career, the mentor, advising you that “you shouldn't follow the shimmering objective of a title”.
I love that because people too often are so consumed by their position and their title. And they don't understand that it's really about becoming meaningful contributors and to show your value and to excel, because you're indispensable. And we get that. And I never have heard anybody actually say it that way. That is what I love to hear you talk about that more. This is practical advice, obviously. But, you know, how do you think others who have heard you tell that story have changed the way they look at the world? This is an amazing principle, and has it affected your career because you seem to be very eager to get out there and be exposed to things and to drive change and transformation along your journey. And I don't think titles really were part of that calculation.
Jesper Brodin
Maybe in the beginning, there was something about the pleasing of the ego of getting a title and getting a good job, being able to show off to your friends that you're actually were on the way and all sorts so, you know, that's that's all human behavior. But you know, that is a dead end street. Right, that's not going to lead you anywhere. In my case, the question is, I guess what is it that motivates you? And if you're motivated by titles, and so to say feathers and the surface of things, that's one thing but I think my style and my energy and my passion comes from leading change from trying to make things better.
We normally say in school, we were taught to say it's good, better, best. But what I think is that better, is better than best. If you see my point there, the opportunity to think that we are never done. But there is something, you know, beyond whatever we have achieved, the greatest things we have done, there's something exciting about how that can take us to the next phase?
And for me, that is the passion, what can we do better, which has been obviously, throughout my years, also part of not only pursuing the opportunities, but also giving some sort of, I think faith in approaching not only problems, but deep dive Lam has like climate crisis, for instance, to say, with the same appetite and belief in that we can make things better. You don't have to have all the answers. But you can find them out along the way.
Alan Fleischmann
I love this idea of better versus best. Because this idea of better means that you're never is a verbose, you're never going to stop changing, you're never going to be complacent, you're never going to assume you've hit the you know, the goal. Because once you say you're the best, you just
Jesper Brodin
I could tell you a funny short story. I actually had a meeting with the founder, we had a business counsel. I do believe it was IKEA, and normally these business councils within but he would challenge, he would challenge and if you would come to him and tell them that we are the best, it would be a bad day.
So this group of people, they took the risk. And they said, Actually, we have a problem because we think we are the best, we have the best sales, we have the best quality, we have the best this and that. And I thought this was going to be a long day. And then he turned to them. And then he said, you know, he said: “of course you're the best. But that doesn't mean you're good”. And then he left.
And you know, that stayed with them. And that stayed with me. And that that was a trigger for an enormous creativity for that group of people. And that I think it's a beautiful way of summarizing an approach to, you know, to leadership and why we are here and what we can do in the future, it is a dangerous thing to be number one, I think, then then you're lacking benchmarks, then you have to really open up your creativity and be the new benchmark. And that takes a little bit more energy and creativity than being number two or three on the list.
Alan Fleischmann
I love the idea that you never rest on your laurels. But it really, you know, you're only as good as your tomorrow. And I'm sure that's why quality is so important to you. And it continues to be so important to you. I think that's great advice. It's a great restatement and all that this intersection also of what you're good at, and something that makes you really happy.
How do you figure out what you're good at? And, and, you know, obviously, if you're really good at something and you feel purpose, you feel passion for it, you are happy, which is what you're saying? But how do you actually advise people to figure out what they're good at?
Jesper Brodin
And, you know, for me, there's only one way and that is to roll up your sleeves and get to it and test and try. So yeah, in my early days, I was a bit too cautious in some areas in testing and trying things. And over the years, maybe it's a thing of age as well. I simply don't have the time to reflect too much. And when I do look back and people asked me what do you regret, I can't come up with a lot of mistakes I've made that I regret but I do regret being too slow and maybe not acting on some of the things I believe were important and right. I think that's the second thing, the best gift you can have is feedback loops in any dimension, we've tried in a key and I think we can still do a better job. But we tried to implement feedback loops in any in any dimension of our business meaning we have all coworkers are part of a survey where we basically rate all leaders including myself, of course you can misuse or you can use feedback loops, but we try to use that to strive to be the best leaders for our people. And thereby also making sure our leaders are in a good place and you know, are happy and feel content and inspired.
We have feedback loops with our suppliers where feedback loops with our customers. So the aspect of being only yourself deeming if you're good or not, I think is wrong. You need to listen to others, when it comes to happiness. It's enough to listen to yourself right so then you need to have the inner conversation and like that there is no at least what I know no other type of feedback loop for that. But then continue to ask yourself in different stages of life. What is it really that makes your heart warm, makes you develop, makes you expand, if that's what you like, and generally feel content with yourself.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. And I also think the fact that you've made certain issues be front and center for the whole company worldwide is another purpose. And I think, you know, you have a personal purpose, but people want to be part of a community, as well. And they forget that part. And one of your most important stakeholders I'm sure it's not just the customer, or the investors or the shareholders, it really is the company employees. And I'm curious about the bold goal that you have. And it really is a bold goal to be climate positive, not just, you know, dealing with the climate issue, but be climate positive by 2030. Tell us a little bit about how you got to that, explain to our listeners a little bit what the term means, and how IKEA is planning to achieve this incredible objective?
Jesper Brodin
Yeah, absolutely. I think this is a highly interesting topic, right? Because it's, as we see it, the climate crisis, of all of the challenges humanity has faced and been confronted by in this decade, we believe this is the biggest one. And when we look upon it, we found three motivations why we think this is important.
We start with, you can say, from an ethical values perspective, it would be seemingly totally wrong, to ignore or to think that we can pass on this challenge to the next generation, it is a here and now question. We need to basically, in our generation, make sure that we are the ones who set ourselves up for the limit of 1.5 degree and basically the massive world transformation that is needed.
Secondly, I think from the brand perspective, we have the data today, we know that in all our markets, 30 markets in IKEA across the globe, latest research 33,000 customers interviewed through GlobeScan, more than 60% of people are deeply engaged and deeply concerned, the variance is not so big from China to the US to Sweden, as people might think.
The variance comes in age groups, if you go down towards the 30s. And the 25 year olds, or up in the 80s and 90s, this is where the question for the next generation basically comes in. And if we ignore that, how would we be able to recruit customers or the best talent out of them.
But the third one, which I think is one of the most interesting needs, right, right now, still, and which I tried to be part of busting is that sustainability will cost and will come at the premium. If it would, of course, we will not be able to resolve anything, because only a few well off people will be able to pay for it anyways. So the transformation that we are now deeply into it's not ahead of us, energy transformation, mobility, agriculture, circularity and consumption is basically what we believe is going to benefit IKEAs economic model. If I turn to the opposite, if we do not address this, we will get more and more expensive, have less sales and profitability in the future.
So the motivations are quite clear to us why this is important, so to say. And then when it comes to climate positive, it was found that it was the first climate plan that was released shortly after the Paris agreement back in 2016. If I remember correctly, it contains, technically it contains three parts. Today we talked about the first part, we talked about scope three, which basically, in layman's terms means all your activities in IKEA from raw material from the forest production, transport, retailing and all the way to the customers use of the product. So that's the carbon footprint, number one. Our preliminary goal, which was then signed off by SBTI science based targets, was minus 15% by 2030. And the remaining part was done beyond activities, investments in carbon capturing in our products, investments in renewable energy, forestry, etc.
Right now we are updating, we are sending our updated goals for approval to actually hit minus 50% by 2030. So if you like, in short, it is now aiming and we feel quite confident that we have the plans to deliver minus 50% Carbon already by 2030. And then we are doing investments beyond scope three, where we for instance, today have invested in renewable energy gap 160% of our own needs if you like and and here it's a big topic, and it's also partly fairly technical, which adds to the complexity maybe. But the good news is Alan, which I'm proud to share is that when we looked a bit more than a year ago, we had grown the company by 24.6%, we have reduced absolute carbon by 30.8%. So not relative carbon, actually absolute carbon while growing the company, which tells me that this is not only a good idea, but it's actually proof that decarbonizing is a good business model.
We will present the numbers in a few weeks from now. And I know for a fact that the trend continues, and we will have good numbers to report, which makes me hopeful that actually, this is going to be good not only for IKEA, but serve as a great example for other companies out there. Sorry for the long, long answer.
Alan Fleischmann
I had the great pleasure of seeing you in Abu Dhabi and Dubai, where you were there. You attend on behalf of the INGKA group and IKEA, you know, pretty amazing gatherings for climate and serious climate conventions such as COP and Climate Week in New York in September as well.
You know, this is through the UN General Assembly coming together with leaders coming together, I think there are 57 Heads of State who came together during cop, cop 28 in Dubai. Out of these forums, you advance your objectives in some ways, actually, the way I saw it. And the way I looked at you is you're actually informing them I felt like your your ambitious goals for IKEA are inspiring to those who are trying to really help the private industry actually embrace bold goals, other CEOs that were there looked at IKEA and you as a leader in this area, you're breaking new ground, I'm just curious, how much of it was you getting something out of it? And how much was you bringing IKEA into that world?
Jesper Brodin
That's a good question. I think a few years ago, we were less active, I think in this type of arena, a Swedish home furnishing company from the deep forest of southern Sweden. We didn't engage that much. And I think what made me and us realize that we need to was simply that the problem is too big for IKEA to manage on its own.
So for several years now we have been working collaborating, for instance, I'm co-chairing the World Economic Forum's climate Alliance, we part of the B Team, we collaborate with them in business, and other constellations and groups of companies and organizations basically, to create momentum and learn together, but also to create advocacy together. I think this COP was a great success, we were capable together with some of these organizations to actually collect more than 2000 signatures of CEOs and leaders of organization, in the middle of the negotiations when we felt things were going in the wrong direction, to basically call out leaders, the negotiators to do what what we believe is right.
And again, you know, we are not owned by a foundation, we're not a philanthropy, this is something we do, because we think it's ethically right. But also because it's business, right. And the COP itself is an interesting event. This COP in the Emirates drew the biggest crowd, if I understand the right, bigger than any other, I think Glasgow was about 30,000. This was about under 510,000 people. So it tells us, Alan, that there is an enormous interest for the world now, that not only the data I share with you from the IKEA consumers, but the world sees this issue and the world will engage. Regardless of where we have those events, whether it's your NGA in your work, or a COP meeting in the Emirates, people show up.
And at this point, I would say from a summary, the collaboration between companies, internet companies, NGOs, youth movements is quite phenomenal. And we still have a little bit of way to go to establish structures where we can have planned ways of interacting with politicians. It's a bit too much siloed on that side, we believe. And we hope that the next COP in Azerbaijan can take a step in the right direction. So we actually gained speed by collaborating.
Alan Fleischmann
Did you leave Dubai feeling optimistic, or more optimistic than when you arrived or…?
Jesper Brodin
I left feeling hopeful and then as it was concluded I was there in the first half of the meetings. As the meeting was concluded. It was a great step in the right direction. And I think for many reasons, it was an important call. And not at least for the hope for everybody out there that leaders of the world are actually taking responsibility and going in the right direction. There were several great progresses in loss and damage to nature, agriculture and methane. Agreeing on tripling renewable energy might actually be the most important decision of them all if you asked me, doubling energy efficiency, but it was also historic.
Abandoning oil and gas and fossil fuel has been inked, so to say on the agreement, where everybody of course knows that, that we need to, the sooner we get the world out of carbon, and reliance on fossil fuels, the bigger chances we are to actually stay within 1.5. And now the world has taken a big step in acknowledging that challenge. And at the same time, I think we celebrate for 10 minutes. And then it's at it again, because now it's about implementation. It's about how we support all parts of the world, the Global South, how do we make sure that countries live up to their investments? How do we speed up and collect the money through all financing instruments in order to live up to the tripling of renewables, etc. But to summarize, I'm quite optimistic and grateful that the world came together and has taken a big step in the right direction.
Alan Fleischmann
I love it. And I also love that it doesn't mean I believe in CEO statesmanship and, and being there, right in the arena, I think private sector has to play a role that which it hadn't for so many decades, or at least it was on the periphery, I felt like it COP 28 You being right there, you know, leaders like yourself, and they're not many to doing what IKEA is doing. And certainly not as bold as you're doing it. We're right there at the arena right in the thick of it. And I think, you know, if we lead change through leaders, like yourself will make a big, big difference.
Jesper Brodin
You know, in our last year, I can just add a small word of hope there. I think, a few years ago, six years ago, I was part of the First Wave Climate Alliance first for me. And at that moment, we decided to leave that constellation. And then the World Economic Forum convinced me to stay.
And the reason for the debate time was that at that time, there was no, I think, real commitment or no action plan among the companies there. Today, that group of leaders, it's a CEO-led platform, it is 129 companies. I think the latest number together, the collective carbon footprint is right up there among the biggest countries in the world. So you can say it's an enormous collective responsibility, which is, of course, a problem. But then you have people that are voluntary, committing to Paris, working together on establishing plans, learning from each other.
Six years ago, none of us understood climate plans, scope three SBTI targets ESD norms. Today, I would say it's a group of big companies represented by CEOs who believe in this and are willing to educate themselves and take some personal risk as well. So I think I'm happy that there are more and more companies joining that movement. To the point I would say, it starts to be quite empty and awkward on the platform of companies. And industries have decided not to yet commit to Paris, for instance, so times are changing.
Alan Fleischmann
A lot have a lot of work to do. And in our last minute if you could just one bit of advice, you've shared a lot of advice throughout this, this last hour, but what advice would you offer young men and women in particular who hope to one day follow in your footsteps who have great aspirations to lead to believe that there's a lot that can be done in the private sector, as they carry about the intersection between public and civil society? What would be your, your one thing you'd want to leave them with?
Jesper Brodin
Wow, one thing? That's the one thing that's like, when I get that question, I feel my people know me with a smile now because I'm, I'm not the one thing kind of person, unfortunately, I wish I was. But I had this idea, you know that.
At least if I say one thing, I think make sure we have fun on the journey, whatever you do, add to have a playful attitude and enjoy what happens to you and your bodily sensations, when you’re having fun, verses when you force yourself to do something, determines who is going to be there down the road. So whatever you do, make sure that you're inspired and you follow your heart and what you do. And then if I can't, I you know, I think the coming generation of leaders more than maybe the generation before needs to be really good at working with dilemmas.
And for me, dilemmas are basically problems that do not necessarily have obvious 1,2,3 solutions but complex matters. And to be a believer in that through dialogue and a bit of faith, we will figure out pathways to situations that can seem impossible. I've seen that happen many times and I've seen many times that the proof that if you have the people and positive approach, you will actually grow your business, lower your cost, make more money, and certainly be part of the next chapter, the chapter of humanity which I think we actually are on the brink of I think, partly thanks to the climate crisis. But I'm an optimist, we will have to see how we do.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that you're an optimist. I love this idea of togetherness. I love this idea of the urgency in which you lead. When you set goals, they're not goals that are out the horizon far for us to reach. I can feel that they're on the other side of the hill, we have to climb that mountain to climb that hill, but we can get there. Your optimism is intoxicating. Thank you so much for this time. You're listening to leadership matters on Sirius XM. And leadership matters. show.com. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. And we spent the last hour with an extraordinary, innovative, thoughtful, bold CEO of the INGKA Group, the parent company of the global furniture, retail brand IKEA. And we are so grateful for the time yesterday you spent with us. And just to really know that there are leaders out there who are willing to take big challenges on and and do it at scale like you and I think that's leaving us with a great deal of inspiration. So thank you so much.
Jesper Brodin
Thank you so much for the opportunity, Alan.