Judy Woodruff
Journalist
Former Anchor, PBS NewsHour
Most of history is written by people who are not famous, but who nonetheless have broad impact.
Summary
This week, Alan was joined by one of the most formidable voices in American journalism, Judy Woodruff. Judy’s impressive career as a journalist spans over five decades, and she best became known as the long-time anchor of PBS NewsHour.
Throughout their enlightening discussion, Judy shared with Alan her extensive journalism and broadcasting experience with both local and major news networks like NBC, CNN and PBS. Judy was often a source of reliability and comfort for many watching political news during her career covering White House administrations. This was a timely conversation as they dug into the importance of truthful reporting, honest dialogues and healing the divides of our polarized world through genuine and meaningful discussions.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
Guest Bio
Judy Woodruff is a senior correspondent and the former anchor and managing editor of the PBS NewsHour. She has covered politics and other news for five decades at NBC, CNN and PBS.
At PBS from 1983 to 1993, she was the chief Washington correspondent for the MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour. From 1984 – 1990, she also anchored PBS' award-winning documentary series, "Frontline with Judy Woodruff." Moving to CNN in 1993, she served as anchor and senior correspondent for 12 years; among other duties, she anchored the weekday program "Inside Politics." She returned to the NewsHour in 2007, and in 2013, she and the late Gwen Ifill were named the first two women to co-anchor a national news broadcast. After Ifill's death, Woodruff was named sole anchor.
In 2011, Judy was the anchor and reporter for the PBS documentary "Nancy Reagan: The Role of a Lifetime." And in 2007, she completed an extensive project on the views of young Americans, titled "Generation Next: Speak Up. Be Heard." Two hour-long documentaries aired on PBS, along with a series of reports on the NewsHour with Jim Lehrer, NPR, in USA Today and on Yahoo News.
From 2006 – 2013, Judy anchored a monthly program for Bloomberg Television, "Conversations with Judy Woodruff." In 2006, she was a visiting professor at Duke University's Terry Sanford Institute of Public Policy. In 2005, she was a visiting fellow at Harvard University's Joan Shorenstein Center on the Press, Politics and Public Policy.
At NBC News, Woodruff was White House correspondent from 1977 to 1982. For one year after that she served as NBC's Today Show chief Washington correspondent. She wrote the book, This is Judy Woodruff at the White House, published in 1982 by Addison-Wesley. Her reporting career began in Atlanta, Georgia, where she covered state and local government.
Woodruff is a founding co-chair of the International Women's Media Foundation, an organization dedicated to promoting and encouraging women in journalism and communication industries worldwide. She serves on the boards of trustee of the Freedom Forum, The Duke Endowment and the Carnegie Corporation of New York, and is a director of Public Radio International and the National Association to End Homelessness. She is a former member of the Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics, a former director of the National Museum of American History and a former trustee of the Urban Institute.
Judy is a graduate of Duke University, where she is a trustee emerita.
She is the recent recipient of an Emmy Lifetime Achievement Award, as well as the Radcliffe Medal, the Poynter Medal for Lifetime Achievement in Journalism, the Gwen Ifill Press Freedom Award from the Committee to Protect Journalists and the Cronkite Award for Excellence in Journalism from Arizona State University.
She is the recipient of more than 25 honorary degrees.
Judy lives in Washington, DC, with her husband, journalist Al Hunt, and they are the parents of three children: Jeffrey, Benjamin and Lauren.
Episode Transcript
Alan Fleischmann
I'm joined today by a groundbreaking journalist, television anchor and veteran fixture on news broadcasts across the country. Judy Woodruff’s wide reaching reporting has brought her to many stations through the years but she may be best remembered as the longtime host of the PBS NewsHour, during her 15 plus years with a highly regarded nightly public broadcast, Judy enlightened millions of viewers with a balance insightful and thorough presentation of the day's news. Over decades of her career, Judy has received wide acclaim for her coverage of Jimmy Carter's presidential campaign, served as a Washington correspondent for NBC, hosted national programming for CNN and PBS, and moderated more presidential debates than she admits she can count. Between the many programs that she has hosted over the years, Judy Woodruff's calm and collected voice has been current events and expert analysis into living rooms around the United States. She is truly one of the most trusted figures in the country. Judy, welcome to Leadership Matters. It is a pleasure to have you on.
Judy Woodruff
Thank you, Alan, it's a pleasure to be with you. And thank you for that very, very generous introduction. Thank you.
Alan Fleischmann
Every word is true. Let's start with your early life. I'd love to know that you traveled extensively as a child, you were the daughter of an army officer. What was life like growing up in so many different countries? And where were you living when you were growing up?
Judy Woodruff
Well, I was born Elena in Tulsa, Oklahoma, which was my mother's hometown. My father was from North Carolina, and my stepfather was from North Carolina. And he was in the army. And it was soon after World War Two. When I was born in Tulsa, it was after the end of the war. And I'm the beginning of the baby boomer generation. We lived in Tulsa for five years. And when he received orders, they called it to move to Mannheim, Germany. And so I moved to Germany in 1951, which was, as you know, six years after the end of the war, and we lived there three years.
And what I remember so vividly about that was driving through the streets of Mannheim and other cities in Germany and seeing skyscraper-high, almost skyscraper high, piles of rubble left from the war. And I, of course, was too young to fully understand what it was all about. I did. I knew there had been a war. But I think you know that, in some way has, has, has colored my life in a way knowing that. Yes, I was born in Oklahoma, I'm fully American. But I saw another part of the world when I was very young. And then I grew up moving from military base to military base, we came back to the United States, we lived in Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, for a year.
Then we moved to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, we lived in Red Bank, in what we call civilian housing. And then my father received orders to go to Taiwan. And so my mother and I moved back to Tulsa, with my younger sister by then, while my father moved to Taiwan, and then we joined him in Taiwan. And we lived in Kaohsiung in the southern part of Taiwan for two years.
So I was in the fifth and sixth grades, and was speaking Chinese at least a little bit of it when I was there, just as I've been speaking German at first grade level when I lived in Germany, but of course, none of that was retained because I would come home and nobody else was speaking German or Chinese. But it exposed me to the rest of the world. And you asked me, What effect did it have? And I think it did give me a sense of the world out there, which is bigger than anything you see on the street that you live on. And so he then received orders to go to Fort Gordon, Georgia. And so we were planning to move to Augusta, Georgia and I ended up living with my grandparents in North Carolina for about half a year while my parents resettled in Augusta but so by the time I reached seventh grade Alan, I had been to seven different schools.
Alan Fleischmann
And you and your sister were the two kids right?
Judy Woodruff
We were the two she was my very much baby sister. She was eight years younger than I.
Alan Fleischmann
So it wasn't like You two grew up as a two-some kind of living together she was your baby sister. So a different experience for her.
Judy Woodruff
Very different experience because I always remember that when I went away to college, she was in third grade. So we were different generations. And I adored her. She would come into my room and rummage through all of my teenage things. But we were very, very close. And I'm so sad to say that I lost her. In 2022. She had type one diabetes, which is a cruel disease. And she managed it without complaint. But it's a cruel disease. She managed it without complaint And it took a toll. And I lost her and was just devastated.
Alan Fleischmann
I'm so sorry. I mean, and all the memories that very few people experienced the journey that you did, except her. I mean, honestly, in the way you came from and your parents, it's, that's tough. I'm curious as you were growing up, because you had such an interesting perspective of the world, how you looked at the United States, from the lens of a girl living in Germany as an American girl living, you know, in lots of places actually, as an American, and then even living among military families as an American, even in the US. How did that actually happen because you know, you're so known for getting the pulse of the country and understanding the country from different lenses. And I'm curious how much influence that had on you. Because you really did look at the world differently growing up the way you did.
Judy Woodruff
Now, that's such an interesting question. I don't think anyone's ever asked me how I looked at the United States. And as I reflect on it, I think I didn't really understand the United States because I hadn't lived here long enough to get a grasp on either the culture or maybe even the ethos. So if you think about it, I mean, I was five, when I left, came back, when I was eight, I was living on a military base in Missouri. But third grade, half of fourth grade, was in New Jersey, the other half was in Tulsa.
And then I was overseas again for more than two years, and then moved to Augusta and then North Carolina with my grandparents, and then Augusta, Georgia. For seventh grade on to finish high school. So for the last six years of school, I was living in the South. So that was my most prolonged experience in the United States. I didn't I will say this, that when we moved to Georgia, I didn't. I was worried about it.
Because I had never lived in that part of the country. And I had this image of the South being plantations and cotton, cotton fields, and I didn't know what it was. And I guess if somebody had said, Oh, well, people go around barefoot, and they have plantations. And that's all I knew. And I thought, well, what, wait a minute, what does that mean? And of course, I found out, you know, when we moved there, Augusta is a very sophisticated Southern, small southern city with a lot of history. But it was for me, a big change because I was used to living as I said, military bases, being part of a foreign culture, learning other languages. I mean, when we lived ________ in Taiwan, my mother would let me ride by myself and a pedicab, from our home to my Girl Scout meetings, and sometimes even to school. I mean, it was just a very different time. I was used to being around people who didn't speak English. So I didn't really have a good grasp on the United States until I moved to Georgia, I think, other than visiting my grandparents in Oklahoma, and North Carolina, and so it's been a constant, maybe it's been a constant effort to understand America, something I'm still trying to do right now.
Alan Fleischmann
And I guess it's America that keeps changing on you. So of course, it's gonna be a challenge that continues, as well. You went to high school in Augusta, Georgia, you attended Meredith College in North Carolina, what attracted you to Meredith and North Carolina at the time, and then how different was that than your experience in Georgia?
Judy Woodruff
Well, I grew up in Augusta, knowing that there was a big world out there. I had a lot of good friends who were going to school in Georgia. They were staying close by and I think pretty early on, I set my sights beyond that. But neither one of my parents had gone to college. My mother only finished 10th grade. And I'm not even sure she finished 10th grade. She never completely told me because her father died when she was 14 and it was during the depression or just after and her mother had to take three jobs to support five children and my mother stayed home to take care of her siblings. So she didn't finish school.
My father finished his high school GED while he was in the army. I didn't have anyone to talk to about college other than my teachers. And so when I thought about where I wanted to go to school. I knew from my grandparents living in North Carolina that there were some good schools up there, but I didn't know much about them. I knew that Duke had a good reputation and I kind of focused on Duke but I didn't get in. I did receive a wonderful scholarship and a grant from Merida, which ended up making all the difference in the world. Merida was, was and is a terrific four year women's college. And in Raleigh, and I, I just felt incredibly grateful for that. I was worried about how I was going to pay for college because we didn't have money to, for me to pay independently, I knew I was going to have to borrow depending on scholarships, grants, and so on. And so that grant made a huge difference that they gave me a scholarship. So that's what the appeal was to go there. But I arrived and ended up loving North Carolina and Raleigh, and I also still had my sights set on Duke. And so we can get to that in a minute. I don't know if you want to talk more about
Alan Fleischmann
America? No, no, tell me a bit. You went and you studied political science emeritus as well. Right.
Judy Woodruff
So I started in math, I started studying math, because I didn't know what I wanted to major in. And I'd love science and math and actually did well in math in high school. I mean, as I reflect on it, I haven't had much of a connection with math ever since then. Except I have enormous respect for people who are good at it. But yeah, I went to college thinking I'm going to, you know, study calculus. And somebody said you could be an insurance actuary. I wasn't sure what exactly that was, but I thought, well, at least I'll be able to make a living. But I took a freshman course in advanced calculus and calculus, and the instructor was a graduate student from North Carolina State who basically thought women shouldn't be taking advanced math.
He really didn't encourage me, I didn't know that he encouraged any of the women in the class. And at the same time, fortunately, I was taking a course in political science, from another professor of narrative who was just on fire about politics and government. And so during the course of my freshman year, at narrative, I changed my mind about what I wanted to be and do, and decided, Oh, yes, this is pretty exciting. I want to study government, politics. And that was from zero background, because I had not, I didn't come out of high school with a great political background.
Alan Fleischmann
But you did. get interested. When you think about people who influenced your life along the journey. It sounds like that professor was one great even if he didn't know it, mentor, who inspired you.
Judy Woodruff
Carolyn Hapur. I am in touch with her to this day. I think her married name is different now, I think. But she and I are still in touch. I've thanked her many, many times. Because she made all the difference. I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't taken her course. And I think I probably would have continued in math a little bit longer, but clearly would have wondered if it was the right course for me. And I love science. By the way, I've always loved chemistry, biology. But once I made that decision, I turned in a different direction. And you're right, she made a huge difference.
Alan Fleischmann
I'd love to add that you mention that people like her because it's amazing. The power of one person in someone's life and you've had the most extraordinary career almost immediately, I got to thinking is to say thank you to her. Because you know, you wouldn't you wouldn't have gotten to where you were if she didn't actually make the switch. You may have been a great, you know, person in math, in sciences, two great things. Do you think you would’ve gone to Duke as well?
Judy Woodruff
I doubt it. But you know, I wouldn't. I think I clearly would have gone in a different direction if I hadn't been.
Alan Fleischmann
Was that partly why you went to do it because of the political science part as well? Well,
Judy Woodruff
I think I mentioned I already had my eye on Duke, I knew it was a great school. And I thought I want to get the best education I can possibly get. And kind of hand in hand with that I was changing my mind about what I wanted to study. And Duke. By the time I finished, I had finished emeritus as a four year school. But by the time I finished two years, you probably know what it's like to transfer you get most credits because you don't get all and so by the time I arrived at Duke, I had to cram every semester at Duke and my last two years in college with political science courses, I think there was a required religion course and one or two philosophy, a few other things.
But mainly in Russian I took the Russian language my senior year at Duke. But other than that, I had to cram it full of a lot of international relations. And interestingly more international than domestic politics, which is now what I spend most of my time covering, but I was interested in all of it and in retrospect I wish I'd stayed in college another year or two and taken a lot more courses but back then, it was so expensive. We were borrowing money from me to go to school and they gave me a grant. But it was not enough and I had to borrow money. I had to work. I worked at Meredith and Duke to pay my way through school.
Alan Fleischmann
And you were an intern for a Georgia representative Robert Stevens Jr. and I understand that that experience actually turned you off, not turned you on but turned you off from wanting to work in Washington. What happened?
Judy Woodruff
You've done your homework! So what happened was I wrote Congressman Stevens out of the blue, he was my congressman 10th District of Georgia, what was then the 10th district. He was from Athens. He was on the Banking Committee, a lovely southern silver haired Southern gentleman, the nicest disposition, kindest face. Lovely, lovely man. And I wrote him out of the blue in my freshman year, no it would have been my sophomore year, starting my sophomore year at Meredith. This was after I had been turned on to politics and political science. And just said, I live in your district, I would love to work in your office as an intern. And for some reason, I didn't know anybody .It was not one of those things where I knew somebody who knew somebody he wrote, they wrote back and said, Sure, come on up. And so I worked in his office for I think it was two months, at least, in the summer after my sophomore year, at Meredith, before I transferred to Duke and he, and that was an incredible experience. They invited me to come back. So I went to work there. A second summer after my junior year at Duke. And I loved it.
I lived with a group of girls, women from Duke, we lived in a wonderful townhouse, apartment just down the street from what is from the State Department, it's now been torn down at something else. But it was just, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. But at the end of that summer to get to your point, I was sitting around talking with the other women who worked in our office and other offices. These were women who were permanent. I mean, they were out of college or out of law school. And I was asking them for advice on “Where should I apply for a job?” because I was thinking I would come back to Washington, they were pretty universally discouraging.
They said, Well, sure, come back to Washington, and you'll be the Gopher, you'll be the coffee girl. So you ought to think about doing something else. That was like a splash of cold water, and went back to Duke thinking, Oh, my goodness, if I'm not going to go to Washington, what am I going to do? I took it maybe I took it too seriously. And I was lamenting my situation with one of my political science professors at Duke who said, Who told me he said, Well, you know, if you're not going to go into politics, or work in politics, you ought to cover politics, did you think about covering. And this was a man named David Pallets who covered not covered he taught political science at Duke. And I thought it was like a light bulb went off in my head. I thought that's really interesting. I could try reporting on politics, and then decide if I want to work. And it was just this idea that I had in my head.
Somehow it took hold I started talking to a lot of people wrote letters, figured out that I could get an entry level job in television news in Atlanta, because I decided my parents were living in Augusta, if I went to Atlanta, fell flat on my face, it didn't work out, I could just drive two hours to Augusta, stay with them, and then rethink everything. As it turned out. I applied for a job at all three TV stations as the newsroom secretary. And that's when I was hired as so after finding out that women weren't welcome in math and politics. I thought, “Well, I'll try journalism”. And you know, but of course, I went on to find out that there weren't many women and the news director, I mean, he hired me, but he said, When I stood up to thank him for hiring me, that news director who I was a spring break of my senior year in college. I said, Mr. Conover, thank you so much for this opportunity. And he said, “of course, how could I not hire somebody with legs like yours?”
Alan Fleischmann
You're like, thank you.
Judy Woodruff
Yeah, I mean, so that was Spring of senior year. And then a few months later, after he was fired for another reason, the next news director, I would pester him to let me go out and spend time with reporters and he said, I don't know why you want to do that. God, we already have a woman reporter.
Alan Fleischmann
A woman reporter? Yeah.
Judy Woodruff
It was 1969 something like that.
Alan Fleischmann
So amazing. So you did become a reporter right at ABC and CBS in Georgia?
Judy Woodruff
Well, after I was newsroom secretary at the ABC station. I had already written to the news directors at the other two stations once I got the sense that they weren't going to hire me at this station where I was working, where I thought they should appreciate my talent and ambition. The news director for the CBS affiliate called me up one day and he said, you know, you come over here for an interview, he said, I'm losing to reporters. So I do have an opening. Can you just send me, you know, come over for an interview and what they called an audition where you read something on camera. But he hired me as an on-air reporter. This is, in retrospect, unbelievable. Here. I was a year and a half out of college. I had never done any reporting ever. I had reported I've left out the little secret I was doing Sunday night 11pm weather for the ABC station because they fired their weekend, quote, weather girl.
And the news director asked me he said “you wanted to be a reporter why don’t you try out for the weather job”? I said, I don't want to do the weather. But he said, Well, if you're ever going to, you know, everybody thinks that you can do this. You need to so I auditioned, I was hired. So I was Cinderella. Cinderella. During the week, I was a newsroom Secretary and I would come in at 11 o'clock on Sunday nights. So that lasted six months. But that was the sum total of my on air experience. I had done no reporting. And the CBS News director and an amazing man who's also still alive, anyway, I also stay in touch with Bob Brennan hired me to cover the Georgia legislature and to cover Georgia politics and to cover Atlanta politics. Isn't that. I mean, as I think about it, my head explodes because today, people would kill for an opportunity like that.
Alan Fleischmann
Well, he must have seen something in you. He sounds like an amazing guy, and realized how you are the perfect person for doing that. So that's incredible, actually.
Judy Woodruff
Oh, he told me later because I asked him, I said, “Why did you do that?”. I think he said Well, I knew you had graduated from Duke and he said, I knew you. And I talked to him about studying Russian for a year. And he was somehow that impressed him. I guess he thought, I don't know what he thought, but. But whatever it was, I'm so grateful that it happened because that was the beginning of my reporting life. And that was three years ago?
Alan Fleischmann
How long were you doing that? How long were you in Georgia then at that point?
Judy Woodruff
I had been there for a year and a half as a secretary, five years as a local reporter for the CBS station. And then I saw my colleagues leaving to go to bigger markets. So I thought it's time for me to go knocking on the door of a network. I went to New York, and knocked on the door at all three networks, asking them if they would take a flier on an Atlanta political reporter. And believe it or not the only one who was really interested, I interviewed all three was the NBC vice president who said, Well, you know, you go take voice lessons and work on your southern accent. Call me back in a year. So this was December 1974. So I went back to Atlanta, went through the Yellow Pages, found a voice coach and set up an appointment with her. And then a week after that, an NBC vice president called me and said, we've just fired one of our two correspondents in our southeastern bureau in Atlanta based in Atlanta, why don't you quickly send me another audition? And so I did that. And they hired me. So I never had a voice lesson. So I don't know what I would sound like if I had.
Alan Fleischmann
You don't, but you don't sound like- you know I couldn’t say I would know where you come from in this country? I don't think you have a Georgia accent or anything.
Judy Woodruff
Yeah, some people tell me that when I talk to Southerners. I do because I've had all those years.
Alan Fleischmann
It Goes home. Yeah, that's so funny. Well, amazing, I guess that this man named Jimmy Carter decided to run for president or Georgia too I guess, because I understand that in the 1970s you were on his campaign when you got started in ‘74. That must have become increasingly a focal point of your big assignment.
Judy Woodruff
It did. I had the good fortune of covering his campaign for governor in 1970. That was where I cut my teeth. I Learned how to be a reporter, so to speak, in 1970. And, and then lo and behold this one term governor, you couldn't you couldn't serve two terms back then. So Jimmy Carter, and his people were already eyeing running for president. And that word was filtering out. At the same time, I was applying for a job and being hired by NBC in 1975. So they mount this big campaign. Nobody takes them seriously. However, I will tell you that I told my bosses at NBC I said, you know, they make fun of the peanut farmer from Georgia. But I said look, yes, you know he’s a former peanut farmer. Yes, he's from Georgia. And he's got that big toothy smile. But they're also deadly serious about getting organized and making a serious race. And so the rest is history. He went on to be elected against all odds.
Alan Fleischmann
And I guess the relationship was struck between you and Rosalind and Jimmy Carter.
Judy Woodruff
Well, that's how I met them when he was running. But actually, the second time he was running for governor was 1970, when I was a brand new reporter, and yes, that's how I met them. I can't say that we were friends or anything like that, because I was a reporter and he was the candidate, and then he was governor, and she was the first lady of Georgia.
So I knew them in their official roles. It was only I think, over the years, I got to know, you know, there was some familiarity because I'd been around for so long. When they were running for president, I kept thinking, surely they're gonna give me a break, they're gonna give me a story that they're not giving everybody else because I've known them a long time. But that never happened. I had to work really, really, really hard to get anything out of their team.
Alan Fleischmann
So the familiarity didn't always help. No, it didn't always work.
Judy Woodruff
And what is it? They say, familiarity breeds contempt? I don't think there was contempt. But I think it's always the case that maybe politicians look at reporters who've known them for a long time, and they expect them to be a little more kind, or a little more understanding. But my job was to be a reporter. And so I don't know, nobody's ever told me that I just suspect that’s part of what goes on in every political relationship between a politician and the press.
Alan Fleischmann
Now, is that what brought you to Washington when he won? Is that what actually was the reason why you came to DC?
Judy Woodruff
Well, that and a lot of lobbying. Because when I covered his campaign, I was so new at NBC, you can imagine that there were several other reporters who had seniority over me, who were waiting to cover the front runner, the Democratic front runner, so as soon as he won in New Hampshire, even though I'd been covering him, then for a month or two, well, actually longer than that, they pulled me off the campaign in order to put two more senior people on him. And I was made the backup to the backup. So I would come back on when the other two reporters were exhausted or taking a weekend off. And then I did, “babysit” the campaign that summer after he won the nomination at the convention. I went to the planes and spent a lot of time there, which is where he would hang out in between campaign trips. And I would go on some of those trips. But mainly I was the backup. And it was only after that continued to the election. Then after he won in November, I was again monitoring the campaign living in planes and on planes in America and Georgia, and was able to break some stories about what they were doing. And I lobbied NBC to let me go to the White House. And the day before Christmas 1976, NBC Vice President calls and says, “Okay, we're going to send you to the White House, you're going to be number three, and you're going to do weekends and mornings”. But I was, of course, thrilled. I thought I'd died. I loved it.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah. And then the whole all that advice about don't come to wash it to the time to change and who you are you moved to Washington. And you were at NBC for how long?
Judy Woodruff
I stayed at NBC nine, a little over nine years. I joined them in 1975 and was with them until through ‘83 When I moved to PBS to the NewsHour.
Alan Fleischmann
And with those good years? They were amazing years. I mean, I learned so much from editors, producers, and my bosses. I had an incredible experience. It was a learning experience for me because while I had great producers and bosses in local television, of course, the network is at a different level. And I learned how to be a better writer and how to be a better reporter. And all those things helped. In my career. No, no doubt about it.
Alan Fleischmann
And friendships were struck. I know during that time as well, I mean good friends were met the whole time but Andrew Mitchell's a great friend of yours, I remember.
Judy Woodruff
Great friend, and when I was covering the White House for NBC and sharing responsibilities while starting with Marilyn Burger, it was Bob Jamison, John Palmer. There were several of us. And John Palmer and I were sharing responsibilities. But you know, sometimes you have to take a day off. NBC had hired Andrea to come in to work, and I believe it was 1978. And she was a general assignment reporter. She was covering other things, but they had her come to the White House to back us up when we needed more reporting help. And she was like a dog with a bone. I mean, this was a great reporter. And somebody I became very close friends with I'm so grateful to say she is our daughter's godmother. And we've stayed very, very close. And I'm just thrilled to see the career that Andrea has had. She, of course, stayed with NBC and is still doing incredible work for them. Both on NBC and MSNBC. It has to be the hardest working most productive reporter and not just in Washington, but probably in the country. I mean, she's pretty amazing.
Alan Fleischmann
I agree. That's amazing. I love the friendship and how you both are colleagues and partners and great friends at the same time. It's pretty amazing. When you're listening to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM, and leadershipmattersshow.com. I'm here with an extraordinary leader in this country, actually. And one and one of the most trusted figures in the country, Judy Woodruff that we know from many years at NBC, but also warm more recently, for many years as the anchor at PBS and tell us a little bit about that transition because you were there at NBC, for long enough. It sounds like obviously with friendships and you know, you were the person people started to see when they started to see why the White House you went through transitions obviously in Washington during that period. What made you want to go to PBS and 1982? That was your first in the public network. What led you to the NewsHour? And what made you want to go in men became, you know, an important fixture with people like Jim Lehrer and Robert and others?
Judy Woodruff
Well, you're absolutely right. I had a great run at NBC. They had offered me great opportunities. I was learning a lot at the same time. And actually, it was 1983. I saw that Jim Lehrer, who was a friend, and Robin McNeil, who I didn't know personally, who was in New York, were expanding their half hour, then half hour program on PBS called the MacNeil-Lehrer report. They were expanding to a whole hour. And this is something that the commercial networks had been talking about NBC, CBS, ABC, there'd been all this discussion about when are they going to go to an hour goes through, you know, the country needs a whole hour of news.
And there were Jim and Robin on PBS doing it. And they had hired a former president of NBC who I knew very well, a man named Les Crystal, from Duluth, Minnesota, a wonderful human being who we lost just a little over a year ago. But they had hired him to be the executive producer of this one hour program. And I was intrigued by it, because they were going to create something that was a platform for longer form journalism, and I was already even in 1983, I was already feeling there are limits to how long you can report when you work for a commercial network, you can do great reporting, but you've got to cut it back to a minute and a half, or interview to three minutes or four minutes, whatever, because I was doing interviews for the day show at that point. And, it just intrigued me and I love the idea of doing substantive journalism. And I had enormous respect for Jim Lehrer, who I knew and I knew Robin only by reputation. And then of course, less I had great affection for. So I talked to them and decided I'm going to make this leap. I was talking, there were people on NBC who tried to talk me out of this, I had very painful conversations with some of my bosses about what I was doing. And I was told in no uncertain terms by everybody that I was making a mistake, that I shouldn't leave NBC. I had great opportunities there. In the end, though, I decided, you know, I'm going to jump off this diving board on this high high board and see what happens. And it turned out to be the best professional decision I ever made.
Alan Fleischmann
Amazing, and it's true. And it also was public television. What Public Television has become not really either yet, right? And the show was the best day of the NewsHour. That came later. It was that you must have seen something, though, right?
Judy Woodruff
I mean, there was no NewsHour. There was the report, which was subject, half an hour and they had been doing it you know, they had anchored. Jim and Robin had anchored the Watergate hearing coverage for PBS, which had been an enormous success for PBS. They were the only news organization that was putting the Watergate hearings on the year they were replaying the Watergate hearings at night. And it drew a huge audience. It drew enormous attention to PBS. And there was an outcry after the Watergate, you know, hearings ended to do something more with Jim and with Robin and Jim. And so, Robin started a news program in 1975, called the Robert McNeil report. But he didn't want to do it without Jim who was in Washington. So he very quickly pulled in Jim, they changed the name to the MacNeil Lehrer report, half hour, one subject, serious, but compelling. And then as I was saying, after seven or eight years, they decided, you know, hey, let's go for a full hour, we can do a lot more, we can cover more than one subject. We can, we can be an alternative to the network news, we're not competing with them. We're an alternative. And they were just intrigued by that.
Alan Fleischmann
It worked. That's so when you were there.
Judy Woodruff
They're the ones who've made it. They're the ones who created this thing. And I went along for the ride and then was so fortunate just to stay there as long as I did. I was there for 10 years, then I went somewhere else, which or if you want to ask about it, then I came back.
Alan Fleischmann
By the time you were there, you were known for moderating presidential vice presidential debates already. That must have been interesting to do, they kind of became your thing. I mean, you know, in many ways people kind of expected you to be showing up. And because PBS was known for not being biased journalism, it's, you know, it always seemed like you were the arbitrator of truth. At least that's how I perceived it always and others who watch you and I'm curious if How did that happen? And it became a big deal that you were the very constant moderator for presidential and vice presidential debates.
Judy Woodruff
Well, to me that is the highest compliment you can pay, I mean, to say that we were trying to be fair to all sides, trying to not to take sides and not to express opinions. But that was just in the DNA of what Jim and Robin created at the NewsHour and at PBS it was, we're not going to tell you what to think, we're going to give you as much information as we can give you in the time that we have. We're going to try to inform you we're going to give you historical analysis as it's appropriate. We're going to try to explain why this story or this phenomenon matters. But in the end, it's up to you to decide what your thinking is about it. And that's it's always been respecting the viewer, the follower, as it turns out with media as media has evolved. And that's a philosophy I'm very comfortable with. And so, to the extent people identify with that I'm just grateful.
Alan Fleischmann
That is amazing, because it is something you know that people feel confidence in you. And it is true, that it was about let's seek the truth together. And you asked the questions that we wanted to hear the answers to which mattered. I'm just curious about that and maybe I got the dates wrong, but I think literally 10 years into the job, or into working at PBS, you left in 1993. And you went for another decade where you were at CNN. I know Inside Politics, I think of you and CNN Worldview. What made you leave to go? I mean, again, another experience when you went from a different kind of network television, to a public network, and then you went to a commercial network, but a different kind of network.
Judy Woodruff
Well, this is another case of an individual making a difference. I was at a dinner in Washington and was approached at that dinner by none other than Tom Johnson, who was a friend of mine, we served on a board together. He had been recruited by Ted Turner to be the new president of CNN, a year or so before this. And it or maybe it was maybe it was a couple of years before that, but he I had known him as someone who had worked, of course in the Johnson White House. I wasn't around at that time. But he had gone on to follow Lyndon Johnson to Texas then he was recruited to be the publisher of the Los Angeles Times. He had a distinguished career on the news side. So when Ted Turner hired him at CNN, as he's explained it later he came to me looking for an anchor in Washington to work with Bernard Shaw, and Bernie had become kind of the face of CNN.
He had been in covering the Iraq War, the first Gulf War, remember he was in the Al Rashid hotel and Baghdad missiles came in so he was part of history. And that that really I would say that war coverage really put CNN on the map. I think I like a lot of other people who didn't take CNN so seriously, I thought, how can they possibly do with networks and PBS too? Because we've got all the experienced people and they had newer people or people who were leaving to go there as a second job, third job in their career.
But long story short, Tom approached me and said, Would you ever think about leaving the NewsHour? And I said, No, I love the NewsHour, I've been there 10 years, I don't have any plan to leave. But he was pretty persuasive. He kept saying, “I would like to offer you a chance to, you know, to broaden your horizon”, you'll be the leading anchor alongside Bernard Shaw. In Washington, you'll be covering all these big stories out of DC you'll do international reporting. And it was very, it was pretty compelling. It did take me a few months to make up my mind. Because in the beginning, I just rejected out of hand.
I'd never imagined leaving the NewsHour, I thought that was where I was going to live and die. But he finally persuaded me. And it was a painful decision, as you can imagine, because I loved him. And Robin, I love where I was. But I did go to CNN and learned a lot there. It was another extraordinary journey for me at CNN, I was there through 12 years, from 1993 to 2005. Covered, well, everything that happened during that period, including 9/11, which was the most painful day of my experiences at CNN.
But at the end of that time, I just decided, while I loved it. And while it was a great experience that I was coming to a time in my career, I thought, Well, I'm not sure I want to continue to do cable news, cable news was changing. News was changing. And I thought maybe I want to go do documentaries. Maybe I want to teach but I wasn't sure. So I just said I'm not, I'm not going to resign, not going to stay and I left. And again, I was told I was crazy. You shouldn't do this. But I decided the time was right. And I started working on a project to study Believe it or not millennials. I had become good friends with Rebecca Rimal, who ran the Pew Charitable Trusts at that time. And Rebecca and I were talking about, you know what I was thinking about what I was interested in. And she told me Pew was interested in understanding the next generation. And I said, I'm really interested in that too. And I'm interested in voters and Americans and what, and this was an opportunity to travel the country. So we can cooked up this idea of doing a couple of documentaries. And a number of multi-platform reports trying to explain millennials to the American people. We had an RV. We traveled around the country. We called it Generation Next trying to understand the next generation. And I pitched it to several different news organizations. But the one news organization that was really interested was PBS and the NewsHour. So I sort of came back into their orbit. And before I knew what they were asking me to fill in on the show, and eventually, at some point, Jim Lehrer said, Well, what would you think about coming back, which I had never dreamed was going to happen? Because they had such a phenomenal team at that point, Margaret Warner, Ray Suarez, Jeffrey Brown, and others. And I thought they didn't have room for anybody else. But, they did offer me an opportunity to come back. And of course, I said, Yes, I was thrilled.
Alan Fleischmann
How long until you actually started to build, you started to become a co-anchor of the news hour. And then you tried that partnership with Quinn.
Judy Woodruff
So I returned to the News Hour in early 2007. Okay, mainly covering politics, and occasionally filling in for Jim, as a substitute when he was off, along with a few others. Jim retired from anchoring in 2011. So that was, what four years I can't do the math a few years later. And when he retired, he really didn't name a successor, they had five of us correspondents kind of rotating as anchors. When and I were probably doing more than then but it wasn't nobody was keeping track. It was just a rotating thing. Then, in 2013, Jim and Robin who owned MacNeil Lehrer productions, which owned the News Hour came to Gwen and me and said, We'd like for the two of you to become the next anchors, co anchors of the NewsHour making us the first two women ever to co anchor a national evening newscast.
Of course, Glen and I were thrilled. And because we were already friends, we were colleagues and friends. And I just, I mean, we went into it thinking, wow, people are going to look at this and say, Oh, it's two women, and they're probably competing with each other and what's going on behind the scenes. So we decided at the very outset, that we were going to stay close, that we were going to have each other's back, that we were going to share everything with each other. We were not going to be competing that. And it worked. I mean, we were close. And I mean to the point I'll tell you, when you think about two men sitting side by side on a set, they're both wearing a suit and tie. So when two women are sitting there, they're wearing a dress or a suit or a blouse. And they can't wear the same color. You know, the guys could both be wearing a dark suit and a black top red tie or a blue tie, going and I couldn't be sitting there both wearing red or both wearing blue or purple or yellow. It would look like the Bobbsey Twins.
And so we decided that we had to exchange messages every, every week about what we're planning to wear. So we didn't show up in the same color. And guess what happened? After a few months, we kind of intuited what the other person was wearing, because we kind of knew what was in each other's work. And we stopped trading and it always worked, we inevitably would show up in non matching colors. One day, we both showed up in purple. And Gwen insisted on going home to change clothes. And I said, No, no, I'll go home. And she said, No, I'll go home.
But, no, it was such a blessing to work with her. She was an icon, an extraordinarily courageous person. I mean, given what she had to go through in the earliest days of her career at the Boston Herald where, you know, she had very ugly things happen. But she just blazed her way through. I mean, she was in print journalism, she went on to the Washington Post in New York Times, NBC News. And then she came to the NewsHour, Washington Week, she was the moderator of Washington Week. And then, so tragically, in 2016. Cancer came along, and we lost her just way, way too young. A huge loss.
Alan Fleischmann
She was so much like you in this way and was so complimentary of each other because you both the friendship, the affection, the friendship was genuine. But she also carried forth with this sense of trust, and you can trust me, you can lean on me, I'm not trying to sell you I'm, I'm going to help you answer the same answer the questions or get to the questions that we need to ask ourselves and report the news and discover things together. But in a way, I can't imagine anyone else other than she to be your co-anchor. What do you think about it? Amazing.
Judy Woodruff
Yeah, no, I mean, and Gwen had a courage that I can't even put into words, because of what I mean what she had to overcome. Come as a black woman, as someone who, you know, people didn't expect her to be successful in the very beginning. And she was just determined she was going to prove them wrong. And she did every step of the way. And so by the end of her career, she was this enormously respected political reporter. Debate. Moderator, you mentioned debates, I mean, when moderated to Vice Presidential debate, Commission on Presidential Debates, invited her twice, she was enormously respected, and I mean, she had all these young people who she had mentored over the years, I mean, I had said there was such an outpouring, after she passed, and young people who talked about and especially young women of color, who would take when would single them out and say, You can do it, you can do it. And so her legacy is, is long lasting, everlasting.
Alan Fleischmann
You know, people talk to people talking about her, and they talked about the loss of her as well that she was too young. When she passed away there was still such promise and a void that actually left that has not been fully filled by anyone else. I
Judy Woodruff
I mean, she was only 61 when she passed, which is way too young. I mean, she should have lived much longer.
Alan Fleischmann
So you stayed longer without her.
Judy Woodruff
I did. She passed right after the election in 2016. So Donald Trump had just been elected president. And then she died within a week after that. And then I became the sole anchor of the NewsHour through 2022. And then, at some point along the way, I knew that I'd been doing this for a long time. And it was time to think about doing something different. And turning that anchor desk over to the next generation. And so I came up with a plan and went to the NewsHour, and I said, I'd like to spend two years leading up to the 2024 election, trying to understand America and trying to understand why we are so divided. In a way we have not been in my career covering American politics, and thankfully, they liked the idea. And so that's what I've been doing.
Alan Fleischmann
And that's American at a crossroad it is. And tell me what have you learned about that? Because we all want to know, why are we so divided? It's not just this country, but it seems like every country, and every community is divided 50/50. You know, it's almost stunning that every election, no matter where you are local, you know, regional, global, and certainly you're nationally, we're always waiting for the results and not sure what the outcome will be. Why are we so divided?
Judy Woodruff
Well, we've learned a lot from talking to people. We've also learned a lot talking to the sociologists, psychologists, political scientists who've studied what's going on. Some of it is clearly media related. Our media today is much more divided. And an emphasizes division, it emphasized the media is taking sides in a way that it didn't used to when I started out. So that's part of it. It's also our political identity, and this was explained better than any, any, any by anyone better than I. There's no one better at explaining this than a woman named LillianaMason, who's a political scientist, maybe she's’ a slash psychologist and political scientist.
And she studied psychology and sociology at the University of Maryland, and she had been at Johns Hopkins, she has done a ton of research on this. And she said, essentially, what's happened is people have taken on board their political identity, and it has now supplanted so much of their personal identity that, you know, it used to be that people would get to know each other. And it was, you know, Where'd you grow up? What sports do you like, you know, where do you go to church? Tell me about your family. And today, our political identity has become the first thing often people will think about when How will you identify someone, it's, are they an R or a D. And hand in hand with that, we've seen that not only are we taking on these identities, but we have darker views of people on the other side, we went to the Pew Research Center here in Washington, which does probably the most respected polling of this kind in the country, if not in the world. And they've looked at how over the last several decades, not only are people farther apart on the issues, I mean, if we were this far apart, I'm holding my hands up, maybe six inches apart. If you look at a graph 20 years ago, today, we're 10 or 12 inches apart on the issues. And when you ask people well, what do you know, what, if you're a Republican, what do you think about Democrats? Eight years ago, Republicans or 10 years ago, Republicans, maybe 35% of them, said they thought Democrats were immoral or dishonest. Today, it's 72%. It's doubled. It's tripled. More Republicans think Democrats are really bad people. And almost as many Democrats think, really bad thoughts about Republicans. So all that has happened.
At the same time, media has been changing, media has been coming more, becoming more opinionated and more split and divided, people can now go into their own corner and spend all day long just listening or watching or reading media that confirms what they already think. They don't have to hear anything in the middle. And so And there's this sense that, again, that people on the other side are bad because of what you read in some story about them. You know, we'll all Democrats believe in you know, fill in the blank are all Republicans believe, you know, that everybody should carry a gun or and they're all Democrats believe, you know, abortion is right, right up until the day of the baby's born, or even after the baby's born. So the worst kinds of opinions are held, whether they are accurate or not. And in many cases, they're not at all accurate. But that's what people have come to believe. And so when you think the other side is bad, you don't want anything to do with them. You don't want to sit down over Thanksgiving dinner with people who have different values from you. And so families are splitting up. Fathers and children are not talking to each other, brothers and sisters, neighbors, cousins, aunts and uncles. And we found that we've done focus groups around the country we've seen. We interviewed a group of Republicans out in Iowa to time Trump voters who said they didn't think it was possible for a person to be both a democrat and a believing Christian or a person of deep faith.
And we said, "Well, why is that for the focus group?" We had a young woman named Sarah Longwell who works with a bulwark group. She does focus groups every week and does a great job and she's right down the middle. And the question was, why not? And they said why? How can you because Democrats believe in abortion, and Democrats believe in transgender rights, that you can change your gender. And Jesus didn't believe in that. And God wouldn't sanction that.
So that was their belief. I mean it and it was sort of making Democrats this “other”. And then you talk to Democrats who, of course, when you told them what Republicans had said, We interviewed two time Democratic voters in Pennsylvania, northeastern Pennsylvania, Bethlehem, who of course said “That's ridiculous. That's not the way we see our faith. We don't believe it, you know, that we think it's entirely possible to be because we are people of faith and then they in turn, said all Republicans have this cult-like loyalty to Donald Trump”. And there was discussion about how some of them are racist. I mean, there are some pretty awful things that both sides think about the other. And that is just, it's just fed by social media, by the media, by politicians. Let's face it. I mean, there are politicians out there every day, bad mouthing, the other side, it's coming out of Washington, it's coming from the presidential candidates. And as long as that continues, it's like they're fertilizing our division.
Alan Fleischmann
What about the role of social media? Because I imagine it'd be, you know, you can almost, you made a really good point, you're only talking or listening to people that agree with you. And then you have folks who are, they're looking at sources of news that are not really sources of news. In some cases, there are people sitting on their couches, who haven't even left there with their, you know, their bedrooms, but they're giving you their points of view. And somehow, they're now becoming the sources of news they're giving.
Judy Woodruff
They're giving you their point, and they're giving you their take on the news is not tethered to any fact or it is so bent in a way to only reflect one side, I mean, you and I both know, you can look at the same sort of budget numbers, for example, and have a completely different take on them. You can say, Well look, if you compare this spending number to that one, and look at what you have, but if you look at it over a 10 year period. So there are ways to twist facts, twist numbers. But in the end,there are ground facts, if you will. And what too many news organizations in my view are doing now is only taking one side of that one side of that story. They're only listening to one side, and in my view to keep our democracy strong. And not just in my view, this is what the researchers will tell you after studying the demise of the crisis and local journalism around America: 2500 plus newspapers have closed down over the last 10 years. I mean, it's astonishing number, when you have that color, that kind of collapse of a straight journalism, what fills the gap, cable news, and its most in its most partisan form, talk radio, in its most partisan form, social media in its most partisan form, and in the internet, in its most partisan form.
And so when you take away reporting, which is what's happened, I mean, we've lost, I talked to someone this morning, who said, the state of Iowa, I think this is in the last decade, has lost over 700 reporters. In that period of time, the country has lost tens of thousands of reporters who's going to who's going to share information. And yes, you know, people talk about others, the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, and there's Fox and CBS and NBC. But we need more than that. We need reporters in every city and every community reporting locally, reporting about the state government. Reporters are not covering City Council's and school boards anymore, there may be one person covering it. And it's just a crime. It's a tragedy. And we got to do something about it. And you probably know there are now big efforts to try to save journalism, local journalism in America. And the reason it matters is because our democracy is hurt, you know, we don't have How do you have a democracy if people are not informed? If they're, you know, if they're covering their ears and covering their eyes, and they're only reading one source of news? That's not information.
Alan Fleischmann
How do you blame them if they make the wrong decisions? Because they're not informed. And, you know, rogue agents can influence you if they're the ones that dominate the conversation, and that's 100%. What's happening? It's a big concern. I had breakfast this morning with the chief of staff to a governor. And I was telling him that in my days in politics years ago, I would wake up early in the morning and I'd read the news. The Washington Post the ball resigned in the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, you read the newspapers, then you looked at the morning shows, you wanted to know what people were saying, and you wanted to know how they were reporting on your world.
And today, they look at digital things, or they'll, they're looking at blogs, and they're looking at different things. And a lot of the reporting isn't happening from those publications anymore. So it's then where's it going to be reported to your point that's national? Then you get into the local stuff that you're saying there's nobody there? It's dangerous because there is no democracy. There's no drivers. This is an effort I want to get more involved in because I do believe that if we don't make journalism thrive, and figure out ways to make it thrive, we don't have we don't have a democracy actually.
Judy Woodruff
No, we don't we don't . By definition, a democracy calls for an Informed Electorate, people to know what are the choices they're being offered? What do these candidates believe? Where do they want to take the country or the state or the city or county or whatever. And if you don't have that information, if you don't know, the real status of the economy, of whether things have improved or gotten worse, whether it's the economy or immigration, border policy, foreign policy, if you don't know that, if you don't know the facts, then how are you going to make the right decisions or decision.
Alan Fleischmann
And there is truth. That's the other thing too, right? We always get to a point in our country where like, you have your truths, and I have mine, or you have your facts, and I have mine. But I really believe and we need to start talking about there are facts, and there are truths. And it's okay to say this is the fact, this is the truth. And that's where you come along, because even today, you're a very credible, trusted voice where people, they know you've done the homework. They know you're reporting, you're not trying to persuade, you're not trying to sway, you're trying to inform. And that is not happening, and that trust is not there.
Judy Woodruff
Well, again, I appreciate the great compliment. Thank you very much. But I mean, for me, it's pretty simple – we are going to need reporters as long as we are a democracy, we're going to need people to go out and gather information to play it straight. You know, I'm not against opinion. I think it's great that we have great debates. I mean, that's an earmark of our democracy, the fact that we can disagree. But we need more than just opinion and nothing in between. I mean, there has to be a way to stay informed. And that's what I think we've been losing. And I see it just drifting away.
I guess, you know, I'm very lucky – you and I are very lucky, we live in the Washington D.C. area, we have access to great news organizations here. We can afford to read the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal and The Washington Post, of course, and the AP. And all these other, as you mentioned, digital news organizations, in The Atlantic and The New Yorker and on down. So we're exposed to great journalists and great journalism. But, so much of the country doesn't have that. I mean, so much of the country, there are places that are news deserts now with nothing. And so that's why they're these great philanthropic efforts now to build up and support, frankly, just to pay the salaries of reporters. Because to do reporting, you have to make a living, you’ve got to put bread on the table so to speak.
Alan Fleischmann
And it's even when we're talking about artificial intelligence and AI and how its transformed the world, even of journalism, I don't agree with people that say, oh, it's going to replace reporters. It may replace some of the editors, but it will not replace the reporters. Because at the end of the day, other things are already replacing reporters, nothing is replacing reporters – that's the worst part. But but it's not AI that’s replacing reporters because we still need human beings to talk to human beings and to actually get to the story and connect in a way that you can only do when you're human to human contact. And I think it's one of the great – it should be one of the great places to go work that will not be replaced by technology.
Judy Woodruff
Well, you make such a good point, because AI can be a blessing when it comes to doing document research, records, historical research – it can go back and dig through that thousands and millions of pages of data, information, finding quotes and the rest of it – but when it comes to talking to human beings and understanding what's going on and trying to make sense of something and to make a smart analysis, that's the human mind. I'm sure at some point AI will come close. But right now, it's not there. It's not close. It's not even close to that right now. And so, again, that's why I worry so much about the state of journalism. And I would just would say this, that I think it is incumbent on American citizens to realize they have a bigger role now, in figuring out what journalism to trust, because a lot of people have said to me, I don't know who to trust anymore. I don't know what to read and I can count on. And I generally say, you know, go to those sources that you recognize that are familiar to you, that you you have trusted in the past. But I said, if somebody sends you an article by email or text or something, that it's just an astounding story about something, I said, give it the reality test. I mean, could this be real, look at the URL, look at where it came from. Check it out, don't just assume. I mean, we have a responsibility as citizens not to just assume that somebody sent us something, or wrote something on Facebook, or put it on Twitter or Tik Tok that it's accurate. And so we have a job as citizens. It does mean a little bit more work when people probably don't have a lot more time because life is just busier than ever right now. But I do say to audiences when I'm asked about this question of trust, you know, that I say you have more responsibility on your own shoulders right now to determine the difference between news that you can believe, information you can believe and information you need to be suspicious about.
Alan Fleischmann
And PBS probably has never had a more important need and role. And it's always had it, but it probably needs it more than ever because you can feel like you can trust PBS.
Judy Woodruff
I certainly hope so. In my view, I've said this often to my colleagues, the only thing we have in the end is our credibility. And it's so easy to lose, and once you've lost it, it's very, very hard, if not impossible, to win it back. And so we need to work really hard every day to keep that credibility.
Alan Fleischmann
This has been such a pleasure. And I wish we had another hour. I'd love to encourage you to come back on because what I'd love to do, also, is to talk a little bit more about this issue about democracy and journalism and preservation of our society and that great divide that you're trying to not only uncover, but discover even some solutions we might be able to embark on based on those observations and insights. And if you're willing to come back, I'd love to do that. And also love to, you've been such a great philanthropist, I mean, for your philanthropy and your advocacy has really been on behalf of people with disabilities. And that's been a personal thing for you. You've been very involved in that, even involved in bringing light to caregivers of those who have disabilities. And I'd love to talk to you more about that as well. So we needed either two hours or we need another hour.
Judy Woodruff
Well, I love the conversation, I'd be glad to come back on. You're right, disabilities is a subject very close to my heart because of our son, we have a son with disabilities. So it's a passion of mine. So, sure. I’ve loved having this conversation, it would be great to come back sometime later.
Alan Fleischmann
So let's do that. Let's come back. It's been such a pleasure having you on Leadership Matters. I really would love to talk to you about that. And it fits, you know, to have a thriving society, we have to be a benevolent one and a caring one and a generous one, and an empathetic one and an understanding that we don't all agree. You said you'd like this idea of debates. I mean, even the big controversies in universities right now, we want to debate, we want to have discourse, we want to be deliberate in our disagreements – but we have to also be safe and secure, respectful, and strive for empathy. You know, maybe there is something we could learn by being in the presence of someone else. And I think that's how I think of you, I think of you as being an arbitrator of that, honestly. And that you are not afraid of the disagreement. You're not afraid of the discourse, what you are advocating is respect. And, you know, I think that would be something that I'd love to talk to you more about, because we have a lot of listeners who are determined to make a difference, who understand that either they are leaders today, or they're going to be increasingly taking on the reins of leadership and they want to make a difference and maybe our conversation could give them a way a little bit.
Judy Woodruff
I think your choice of the word respect is exactly right. We need to be able to talk to each other and even when we disagree, respect what the other person is saying. But those are very generous words, Alan. Thank you so much.
Alan Fleischmann
We'll get another one scheduled.
Judy Woodruff
Would love what love
Alan Fleischmann
Thank you, talk to you soon.