Lonnie Bunch

Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution

“In some ways, part of what leadership for me is about finding the greater good, finding the vision that is transformative. I learned this motto: Make no little plans. So, therefore, for me, leadership was about making the big plan, having a vision, but making sure that it wasn't about you, it was about the greater good.”

Summary

In this episode of Leadership Matters, Alan and his good friend Lonnie Bunch talk about the qualities of a good leader, including curiosity, passion, and fairness.

They discuss how, during his tenure as the 14th Secretary of the Smithsonian, he has orchestrated the construction of the African American History Museum. In his role as Secretary, Lonnie has found how important it is to reach across the aisle and strategically ask for help and favors. Before starting at the Smithsonian, Lonnie was the President of the Chicago Historical Society where he learned about leadership and reaching for big plans.

In this episode, Lonnie opens up about his role models, including his grandfather, who was a sharecropper, and his father, who held a Ph.D. in early childhood development.

Mentions & Resources in this Episode

• A Fool's Errand: Creating the National Museum of African American History and Culture in the Age of Bush, Obama, and Trump is Lonnie’s book 

• What The Negro Has and Has Not Gained is an essay written by Martin Luther King Jr.

Guest Bio

Lonnie G. Bunch III (born 1952) is an American educator and historian. Bunch is the 14th Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, the first African American and first historian to serve as head of the Smithsonian. He has spent most of his career as a history museum curator and administrator.

Bunch served as the founding director of the Smithsonian's National Museum of African American History and Culture (NMAAHC) from 2005 to 2019. He previously served as president and director of the Chicago History Museum (Chicago Historical Society) from 2000 to 2005. In the 1980s, he was the first curator at the California African American Museum, and then a curator at the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History, wherein the 1990s, he rose to head curatorial affairs. In 2020 he was elected to the American Philosophical Society.

Follow Lonnie on Twitter.

Clips from this Episode

• On the story that profoundly shapes us all.

• On looking back at the March On Washington and his ability to connect the Civil Rights Movement with his own life.

Episode Transcription

Alan Fleischmann 

Today, I'm honored to be joined by my good friend Lonnie Bunch. I say it's an honor for me to have him because Lonnie is a historic leader. And his life story is one of a kind. I'm excited to have him here to tell it on Leadership Matters on Sirius XM. Lonnie is the 14th Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, the first African American to hold the position. The Smithsonian is a sprawling enterprise and a massive responsibility. It encompasses 19 museums, 21 libraries, the National Zoo, and it houses some of our nation's most treasured artifacts. Prior to becoming Secretary last year, Lonnie was the founding director of the Smithsonian's National Museum of African American History and Culture. What he did in that job was amazing. He started out with no collections, no funding, no building, and created what is now one of the most important and beloved museums in the world. The project is a subject of Lonnie’s latest book, A Fool's Errand: Creating the National Museum of African American History and Culture in the Age of Bush, Obama, and Trump. Lonnie previously served as the president of the Chicago Historical Society and has held teaching positions at the University of Massachusetts, George Washington University, and he also taught at his alma mater, and mine, American University. It is a remarkable career that has spanned across academia and civil society. And I'm looking forward to diving in with him today. Lonnie, welcome to Leadership Matters.

Lonnie Bunch 

Well, thank you. You're so kind to have me.

Alan Fleischmann 

I am so excited by this. I get the great joy and pleasure on Leadership Matters to interview some of the most extraordinary leaders who really do transcend time and transform what they build. And I would say to date, nobody has accomplished what you've accomplished. Because what you've done for us transcends private, public, and civil society. You put a stake in the ground that marks our history and our future. And you've done something, I'd often say this, you did something, as I just mentioned that with nothing at the start, in fact, no promise, or true direction. And you took it and led it, which is a true sign of leadership. But you also, in my humble opinion, hoping that you will confess that you were the lead curator, in many ways, you were the fundraiser, you were the lead operation CEO. I mean, really, truly every aspect of that glorious museum. Every detail inside and out was really through the detail and vision, and leadership of Lonnie Bunch. I am grateful. And even today, obviously, we're in the pandemic right now where people aren't going to museums. But even until the pandemic, after the last few years of it being open, you see long lines, and it was the interest was and is rather extraordinary. But we're going to get to that. I want to make sure that we spend a little bit of time not only talking about that museum in particular, but their Smithsonian in general, but also how you're dealing with the pandemic as the CEO of the Smithsonian. But I want to start with your life story a little bit. Your family history. Your grandfather was a southern sharecropper who moved his family to New Jersey and eventually opened a dental practice. That's an unlikely path to be sure. And we know that the museum, the National Museum of African African American History and Culture, prized the research and documentation of family history during your tenure. So I'd love to have the start of this conversation by you telling us a little bit more about your grandfather and other members of your family. And as a kid growing up, what you heard, and what you know.

Lonnie Bunch

Well, first of all, I'm so excited. And you are so kind. I'm just some historian from New Jersey trying to make it in the big city, but you're much too kind. But I'm also successful in part because of my family. I realized that when I look back at my grandmother and grandfather, I realize that they transformed the trajectory of a family. I mean, this man starts out as a sharecropper, basically, outside of Raleigh, North Carolina. For whatever reason, decides that he can go to college at night. So he goes to Shaw college at night and takes some 10 years to graduate. Then he graduates and somehow decides he wants to be a dentist. And he found out that you could go to Howard University dental school, but they want him to pay some money. So he and my grandmother moved to Atlantic City. She takes in the wash at the hotels, he pushes the rolling chairs along the boardwalk. Finally makes his money, comes to Howard, and then comes back to New Jersey in 1919 and practices dentistry until he dies in 1957. And I wish I knew more about him. He died the day before I turned five. So I have these strong memories of him. He was a very tall man. And what I love is that he really started my interest in history. He sat down with me one day, and I was reading books. And one day, there was a book with pictures of kids. And I was looking at them and they were my age. And he said, that picture is 100 years old, and more than likely those kids are gone. And when you're four and a half years old, almost 5, you’re like, people like you are gone. I was stunned. And then he said words I'll never forget. He said in those days, people could live their lives, die, and the caption says, unidentified or anonymous. And that's what motivated me. I felt my job. ultimately, was to give voice to the voiceless and make the invisible, visible. And it really started from my grandfather telling me those stories and pointing at that picture and saying, I wonder who they were. And that fascinated me. Were they happy? Were they treated fairly? And then, candidly, because I grew up in a town that was overwhelmingly Italian. My brother and I were the only black kids in the elementary school. So that meant I learned how to fight. I learned how to talk Sicilian. I learned run. But what I realized is that I wanted to understand how people treated me. Some people treated me wonderfully, some people did not. And I thought, How do I learn? So I thought learning history was one of the ways to do it. So really, history began as a personal journey, and then also became a professional journey.

Alan Fleischmann 

And how did your family then get—you grew up in Belleville, which is a suburb of Newark, was that because of your grandfather?

Lonnie Bunch 

Yes. My grandfather moved to—again, we don't know why he moved to Newark. And he was a dentist, but he didn't have any money. So for several years, he worked in factories trying to save money. Then they buy this house in Bellville, New Jersey. The only black family there. And so I thought he must have been amazing to think, I'm gonna move my family here. Part of it was good schools, I bet that was part of it. And so, I feel very fortunate that if he stayed a sharecropper, nobody would have ever heard of me. I probably would be picking cotton somewhere.

Alan Fleischmann 

It's amazing. And you got to see devoted an extraordinary part of your life to actually making sure that he isn’t an unknown either. One of the invisible. Which is also, I’m sure, part of the passion. Did you have a love of reading growing up? Did that become part of it too?

Lonnie Bunch 

Absolutely. One of my proudest moments was when I realized I read every biography in the Belleville Public Library. I had a passion for reading and a passion to compete in sports. So my reading was competitive. I got to read more. And it was really partly to find knowledge, but partly to escape. I mean, literally, I can remember times where walking to school was dangerous. That people would call me names, and we'd have fights. So sometimes just coming up to my room and reading a book about George Washington or Clara Barton was really my way of saying, okay, I can put aside what I've got to face tomorrow, and really revel in the past and learn something about other people. And so that's really what got me going. It was both an escape and a desire to understand and learn more. And besides, I realized that I couldn't fight every day.

Alan Fleischmann 

It was your place of peace, where you actually could find solace. Was your brother similar to you?

Lonnie Bunch 

My brother is five years younger and I think he really didn't have the same passion for reading. But I think we both wanted to understand the circumstances we found ourselves in because it was really pretty—there were probably other people that grew up like we did, but I didn't know anybody. So at the time, you're trying to both fit in, but recognize that you're different. What I remember more than anything else, is how race would tap you on the shoulder when you didn't expect it. You're conscious of it, but then you would go play baseball. And I'll never forget. I was a pretty good athlete. We're playing baseball and a kid said, I said, we all want to go somewhere. And I said, Oh, don't be different. Let's all go. And the kids said to me, you're the only different one around here. So it would always tap you on the shoulder when you didn’t expect it.

Alan Fleischmann

They were thinking, he’s different.

Lonnie Bunch

Exactly. And so I learned to anticipate it. I also learned that what race taught me was how to put feet in many worlds. It taught me how to understand people who are different. And it really made me, I hate to sound sort of pollyannish, but it made me want to fight for fairness for everybody. Because I remember what it was like to not be picked for a baseball game because you were black or people calling you names. Little girls calling you names. And so I wanted to always be the guy that would treat people fairly. And my whole career has been about making sure that the stories that need to be told, are told, and that people embrace our history in a way that's fair and true.

Alan Fleischmann 

What did your mom and dad do? I know one of the things I know about you, Lonnie, as your friend, and I am so grateful to be your friend, is your devotion to your mom? I know you're very close to your mom. So I know that you grew up with a great family with your mom and dad both.

Lonnie Bunch

But what was wonderful was—I'm Lonnie Bunch the third, right? So therefore you already know you're part of this family. And my parents were both teachers. My mom is still with me, my dad's gone. But what you learn is, one is the value of education. More and more and more you learn how important it is. But the other thing is being the son of two teachers, you also learn how to treat teachers with respect, but not to go overboard. They were just human people. You saw them come over to the house and acting foolish when they got drunk. And so what you realize is that my parents had certain expectations. And the best story I can tell is one day in my working-class neighborhood, we were on the front porch. And all these kids were there. And my mother and father came out and asked, so Jimmy, what are you going to do after high school? Jimmy said he's going to the Navy. And then somebody was going to the community college. And they went around. They got to me, and they said, so what are you going to do after graduate school? So there was this expectation that education was really the key, right?

No choice. It was in the water.

Absolutely.

When you were 11 years old. You were 11 years old during the March on Washington. You obviously were aware at 11 years old. So the fact that you were five years old and you were very aware of your grandfather, I imagine knowing you at 11 years old, you were very aware what was happening in the country at the time. What do you remember most?

Lonnie Bunch 

What I remember is that my father saying that we need to watch certain moments on television. And he never did that. And so suddenly you're looking at the March on Washington, exactly what it is. And you realize that what my parents were able to do was they were able to allow me to connect the civil rights movement, the March on Washington, with my own life. To suddenly realize that I was going to be a beneficiary of that and I had an obligation to contribute in whatever ways I could. And so I've always found that strong memory of my father saying, this is something you need to pay attention to.

Alan Fleischmann 

That's very cool. And obviously, both as educators wanted to make sure that you were absorbing everything and remembering as it happened, as well.

Lonnie Bunch 

Well, I think that for me, it was partly—I always wished I was as good a father as my father because he was so brilliant. What I love is, when he got his PhD in child and adolescent development, I think we were probably six or seven or eight. And at that point, he no longer spanked us, it was more, let's discuss this, and we were like, I understand the value of education, I will not be spanked. For me, it was sort of his ability to say, you've got to confront the things that scare you, even though you don't want to. And I just remember being in ninth grade and having to do an oral report, and I was gonna do what every other kid did was do something on Mickey Mantle or some sports figure. And my father said, here is an article by Martin Luther King. I remember the title What the Negro Has and Has Not Gained. And I'm terrified. I'm the only black kid in the school. I don't want to do this. He said, this is something you should do. Of course, if you don't want to you don't have to. So of course you did. And I remember standing in front of the class saying the title, and somebody yelled in the back and I'm all nervous, but I got through it. And I think I got an A or something. And to this day, whenever I'm scared, whenever I think, Oh my god, I got to get in front of these people. I remember that ninth grade. I said if I could talk about What the Negro Has and Has Not Gained in front of that class, I can say that in front of anybody else.

Alan Fleischmann 

It's amazing how much one becomes who they are and how they confront fear by overcoming something at a young age. And then for you to be the only African American and the only black kid in the whole class. Was it the whole school?

Lonnie Bunch 

It was the whole school to elementary school. And then in junior high, there were a couple, but I didn't know them because they lived in a different part of town.

Alan Fleischmann 

Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. Any mentors along the way, besides your parents that struck you?

Lonnie Bunch 

You know, I think that I was—I want to be honest. I think it was sort of watching family and friends. You know, my father's friends coming together. My mother's friends. I think it was really my parents. And I can only remember one teacher, a history teacher in high school, who would answer my questions after class and who sort of inspired me, Mrs. Snyder. I'll never forget her. And I got to know her years later. She wrote me about the museum. I actually went to visit her. But on the whole, most of what I learned was through my family and friends. And I used that as the cushion to move forward.

Alan Fleischmann 

And your father got his PhD, I heard you say, that's pretty extraordinary as well.

Lonnie Bunch 

Yeah. In Child and Adolescent Development. He was like this brilliant guy who basically wanted to—I hadn't thought about this, but his commitment was to help kids get through school and do well. And that was sort of shared to me. And what's been really powerful is, since he's died, because I'm Lonnie Bunch the third, I get letters from students of his. People talk to me about in 1958, he took us on a field trip, and he taught us about this and that. So I really feel grateful that the Smithsonian gave me a chance to be visible, which gave me a chance then to connect with my father in ways I never would.

Alan Fleischmann 

And I guess his legacy, and then your name. I love the idea that your carry is his name. And I guess your grandfather's name as well.

Lonnie Bunch

Exactly. Even though as a kid, you hated it. Because you never know any other Lonnies.

Alan Fleischmann 

You're the only Lonnies I know.

Lonnie Bunch 

Is your name Lionel, Ronald, Leonard? In fact, it was so bad, even in Spanish, when you begin to learn Spanish, they want to give you a name. They couldn't figure out a name. So they called me Paco, which is Frank.

Alan Fleischmann 

This is Leadership Matters on Sirius XM. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. I'm here with the 14th Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, my good friend, Lonnie Bunch. And we're talking to you, Lonnie, about your life, and your journey, and how all these different spreads, especially the influence of your mom and dad had such an influence on who you are today. And how lucky are we? How did you get to American University?

Lonnie Bunch

Well, the true story is that I fell in love. There was this girl who was at American University. I said, that's a good place to be. But basically, I was very fortunate. There was a professor named Dorothy Gondos. And I was stumbling, walking around, and I went to the campus and said, I'd like to talk to somebody in the history department. And this woman talked to some guy with this big Afro who didn't know anything. And we talked history. And she said, here's what it means to study history. Here are questions she asked me. And that moment, she was so kind. I said, this is the place I want to be.

Alan Fleischmann 

Wow, that's great. You went there for undergrad and for graduate degrees.

Lonnie Bunch

I started out in Howard, fell in love, went to American, and stayed there for graduate school. It was a great experience.

Alan Fleischmann 

That's so amazing. So Washington had been your home then for a bit. And did you ever leave Washington? You did, obviously. You went to Chicago and other places after that.

Lonnie Bunch

I've left Washington several times. I stayed for sort of nine years, right. And then I went to teach at the University of Massachusetts. And then I went out to California for a while. Then I came back to the Smithsonian. And then I went to Chicago, and then I came back again. So I'm probably the only person I've ever left the Smithsonian twice.

Alan Fleischmann 

Wow. Did you consider Washington to be home? Do you feel New Jersey is home? Do you feel Chicago is home? Massachusetts?

Lonnie Bunch

New Jersey's home. Although I spent more time in DC. I think that New Jersey is home because it shaped me in those important years, right? But I love DC now. It took me a while. For a couple of years I was like, what is this place? But I love it and I'm committed to it.

Alan Fleischmann 

You've been a college professor, you're obviously an author, a curator, a CEO. You've held managerial jobs throughout the Smithsonian. At what point did you see yourself as more of a historian—I guess what you're still a historian. But you're obviously a leader and a CEO as well. How did you learn the skills necessary to lead? Because I think of you as this incredible leader because you inspire others to follow you. And you do it with extraordinary humility. It is amazing. When you were describing your father and his evolution and how he was as a parent, I couldn't help but think of the word respect. That your father respected you. What I think of you and I've been so many meetings with you. And I've seen you and no matter who I've missed a meeting with you, there is this humility and respect you share with the other person when honestly, you're the dominating person in the room in almost every case. Or you should be or you are by their perception or mine. And then you're just you just make everybody feel so comfortable. But I'm just curious, where did the leader versus the CEO kind of versus the historian come in? And it really isn't either/or in your case?

Lonnie Bunch

That's right. First of all, everything I do is shaped by history. Right? So I don't do history. I'm a historian, right? So it shapes everything I do. But it's also my father and mother were really good. My father would always say son, never believe your clippings. And that was his way to sort of say, don't think you're hot deal. Let's bring it down. And so what I realized is that my parents taught me that no matter how smart you are, you don’t have a monopoly on wisdom. So part of my leadership was to realize I had to learn how to listen. I had to have a strong vision. And what I realized when I became more of a leader, I was making the transition from a curator to being kind of an administrator. And I realized I would hear people at the Smithsonian say, Oh we can't get anything done. This bureaucracy is so awful. I was like, all you got to do is figure out how to work a system and how to build personal capital. I don't think anybody ever disliked my father, right? So I realized that, what I wanted to do was to build relationships. And I'll tell you where it came from. I was on train. I was in graduate school going to visit some somebody in upstate New York, and the train is crowded and there's an old Jewish guy, that's how he defines gimself, an old Jewish guy. He sits down next to me and I'm trying to read my books and he says, do you know what a chit is? And I'm like, Yeah, I know what a chit is. And he starts telling me about the key to success is to remember that you have to have more chits in your pocket than you owe. And I never forgot that. And so I realized that part of leadership was building chits was to use personal capital to get things done for people, but to have a pocket full of chits if you absolutely needed them. And for years, I never pulled the chits until I started building the museum.

Alan Fleischmann 

And then you went back to the folks you helped over the years?

Lonnie Bunch

That's right.

Alan Fleischmann

It's time. When you started building the National Museum of African American History and Culture. It's an American treasure is it's a date open. But when you started your book, you called it the creation of Fool's Errand. What do you mean by that?

Lonnie Bunch

I thought that this was a journey that I wasn't sure I could pull off. And I had read a book in graduate school called A Fool's Errand about somebody who tried to bring the races together after the end of the Civil War and failed. But implicit in the failure was, it was better to make the effort than not. So even though I told everybody we could pull this off, I wasn't sure. And I kept thinking to myself, am I on a fool's errand? Am I giving the most productive years of my academic life to an endeavor that may not happen? And then I realized that I'll make it happen. But even if it doesn't, I'm going to try to make the country better, I'm going to try to raise certain issues that are important. So in some ways, part of what leadership for me is about finding the greater good, finding the vision that is transformative. During my time in Chicago, I learned this motto, Make no little plans. So, therefore, for me, leadership was about making the big plan, having a vision, but making sure that it wasn't about you, it was about the greater good.

Alan Fleischmann 

And how did the conversations begin? Like was their conversations started somewhere else that was beginning the museum and you got a phone call? Would you lead the effort? Or was it you yourself who said, You know what, I'm going to take this on? How did it all begin?

Lonnie Bunch

Well, what happened is that this idea has been floating around for 100 years, right? And even when I was a curator, there were discussions about should there be an African American Museum? And I was ambivalent. I mean, I wasn't involved directly, but I didn't know. And then what happened is that they got legislation passed in 2003. And I was president of the Chicago Historic Society and people are reaching out. Am I interested? And I'm sort of like no, on several levels. First of all, I wasn't interested because I wasn't sure I was good enough to do it. But two, it was also because I had become the president of the Chicago Historic Society. It is so rare for African Americans to run these kinds of institutions. And I didn't want to leave that. And to be honest, they talked to me about it and I realized that I needed to try to do this because being the president of the Chicago Historic Society nurtured my soul. I was happy. But if I could do this, I could really help a nation see itself in new ways. And I could help people like my grandfather be remembered. And so that was too strong a lure. And also, one of my great strengths, or great weaknesses, is that I can envision at eight o'clock in the morning, what's the big picture, and then by nine o'clock, I could focus on what I need to get done. And that's the way I began to sort of work through the museum. When I look back, I'm stunned, to be honest, that we were able to do all that we did. Because when you sat down and said, as you said, you start with nothing. Holy mackerel.

Alan Fleischmann 

An the politics, the fundraising, the artistic curation here, and creation had to be overwhelming. I was hard throughout, I'm sure, but the beginning was a blank canvas.

Lonnie Bunch

Well, and the good thing about the beginning was, I'm not sure anybody believed we could pull it off. So, therefore, we didn't have the kind of oversight. So I was able to sort of make it up as I went along. And then there are two things that always moved me. One is the support of colleagues. So I would call people that I knew over the years. They helped me think about doing this kind of exhibition, or how do I make this more visible? But the other thing is, I always remembered every insult, right? I mean, when I was in high school, a woman said something about black guys aren't smart enough to go to college. So I actually wrote that on a piece of paper and kept it in my wallet. And every time things got tough in college, I pulled out and I say, I'm not gonna let her win. And so when we're trying to build a museum, there are people that said you can't do this, it's impossible. And I would sort of keep that little chip on my shoulder. And that would motivate me. So it's both the greater good. And also, you don't think I can do it? Watch me.

Alan Fleischmann 

That's amazing. Even the thing you just said a minute ago that you start the morning, and you say, at eight o'clock in the morning, you're saying, this is what I got to tackle the day, and then at nine o'clock, you start to do it. Is that something you still do every day?

Lonnie Bunch

Absolutely. I try to make sure that every day, I think about what's the big picture, what's the greater good that I'm trying to accomplish? And then trying to figure out how to let it go. Because I think the challenge for me as a leader is—building the African American Museum, the challenge was, trust yourself, trust your instincts. To say, after these many years, I know what a good museum should be. I know what it would take to do that. Now, as the head of the Smithsonian, it's both the vision, but it's now delegating more, letting go more, and trying to find the right tension between leading and listening.

Alan Fleischmann 

When I think of you, you mentioned a second ago kind of in passing. When I think of you, I think of the rigidity of the Smithsonian as an institution in so many ways. Because there are so many passionate leaders. And when you're getting around art, and you're getting around history, you get a lot of stubbornness among many. And you seem to always break the bureaucracy in some way. I don't mean that in a negative way, mean that in a positive way and I don't know what that is because it goes back to the issue that you were building something that nobody believed, or whether they knew your ability was something that nobody else could do. But when it came time to actually have things happen, that would have been an obstacle to anyone else, you seem to always overcome it. And you had that perseverance, that focus, to overcome it. So I can see very logically why you would be the head of the Smithsonian, from a cultural point of view, because when you were ahead of the National Museum of African American History and Culture, you did break the culture in some ways from what it normally had been.

Lonnie Bunch

I think the challenge for me, as head of the Smithsonian, is to remember to be yourself. To say, wait a minute, I'm the Secretary of this Smithsonian Oh, my God, what does that mean? How do I make sure Congress—put that aside and say, here's what I here's how I believe what I can do and here's how I do it. So as long as I'm true to myself, in other words, find the common humanity, find a bit of humor, recognize that my strength is not in the details. I tell people all the time, I can tell you what the promised land is and how to get there, but somebody else has got to build a ladder. Aand so I think for me, the challenge of leadership at the Smithsonian has been to be true to myself, and to not sort of not be the Lonnie Bunch to build the museum, because he's now the secretary of the Smithsonian. And that's been the challenge for the first year for me.

Alan Fleischmann 

So bring Lonnie Bunch to the Secretary position, rather than look at all the former secretaries and say, I'm gonna do exactly what they did.

Lonnie Bunch

Exactly. Although I must admit, sometimes I walk down the hall, there's a hall with all the pictures of the former secretaries. And how do I say this? I realize how different I am on so many levels. But I also feel the burden. I think that every Secretary made a major contribution to an institution that should matter to all Americans. So I do feel that weight that sense of Oh, my god, you're the secretary. And so I find myself trying to downplay it. And I've done Zoom meeting where I said, Call me Lonnie, don't call me the Secretary. Because I keep hearing my father say, don't believe your clippings. Don't believe you're better than you really are. Always remember that every day, you're proving yourself, you're proving your worth. And so that's what it is.

Alan Fleischmann 

Have you managed to bring that same ethos and same philosophy in your daily job in a way? ecause obviously, it's a nonpartisan job, right? Yet, it's obviously in a very political time. And you've worked for presidents Bush, Obama, and Trump. And these are treacherous waters in Washington. This is not a time where Washington has actually been known for its unity. And you've managed to navigate, I would argue, in a way where you've got support and fans among so many who are not the same, who come from different parts of the country, who are leaders in Washington who could become a big albatross if they wanted to, but they're not somehow with you. How do you navigate Washington?

Lonnie Bunch

Well, I think part of it was, even before I came back from Chicago, is thinking carefully about how are you bipartisan? How do you get support from both sides of the aisle? So when I knew that when I came back to the Smithsonian, in 2005, and I went on the hill, people would immediately see this face and go Democrat. And so what I did was I was friends with many of the republicans from the North Shore of Chicago, and they would introduce me around. So suddenly, people would say, wait a minute, he's got both. And I really pride myself on trying to get to know people on both sides of the aisle because you realize that you're going to get beat up. And you can't manage Congress, what you want is to find a core people who will say, he's a good person. He's doing good. Let him continue to go down this road. But I recognize one anything else that being a museum director, that being the head of the Smithsonian, is political. And if you don't keep your eyes on the politics, if you don't listen, if you don't realize that—when I was building the museum, I was on the hill every week, I didn't ask for anything, just on the hill every week, building those relations. And I believe so much that everything is driven by personal capital. And I want to make sure that I have that capital on the hill as well.

Alan Fleischmann 

And was it under the Bush administration or the Obama administration where they started putting money aside?

Lonnie Bunch

Well, the challenge was to figure out strategically and tactically. Strategically, it was because you had to have money for building a building, both from the government and from the private sector. But you also needed money to build the staff. So really trying to figure out okay, what year do you ask for x? Because you knew Congress, there was no mechanism in the legislation that said, if you raise $10 million, Congress will give you $10 million. So it was really every year trying to figure out, Okay, how to make this work. And to be honest, President Bush and President Obama, very supportive because I had to go through—you can't lobby, so you educate. And so I spent a lot of time educating the Office of Management and Budget or educating Congress, but both administrations were very supportive, and helped us move the project along,

Alan Fleischmann 

Because I remember the first time you and I met, we sat in your temporary office, when you think about that visit, and you helped me, I imagine you did this hundreds of times. You visualize something that hadn't even had any bricks or mortar. And I saw these plans and you brought it to life. You helped me imagine why it was important. And you also helped me see it physically. So you were already, in a way, creating exhibits along the way. And sometimes I remember asking you, wow, you have that in the collection. And now when I think about all the things that you have, you've got one of the most extraordinary collections, obviously, across the Smithsonians. But at the museum, at that point when it was being envisioned, you didn't have a collection yet. And now you have too much to display that's in the vault. But I remember you sharing with me this idea that I visualized, what it would look like. And then when I asked you, wow, you have that and you said not yet. I must have been part of the persuasion when you were on the hill or and when you were experiencing some challenging feedback from people saying that's an impossible feat, you would say, let me tell you what it will like. And all of a sudden people join.

Lonnie Bunch

You've got to believe, right? You've got to believe that you can pull this off. And what you have to do is find moments of victory that you can point towards. So whether it was when somebody called me and said, I've got material from Harriet Tubman, I'm like, really? And so when you get that, you suddenly realize, okay, use that. One, let people know this stuff is out there, you can find it. But it was a risk because I didn't know. I had to believe. I learned very early in my career that people have amazing stuff in basements, trunks, and attics. And you got to ask. So this notion was, let's take the idea of the Antique Roadshow, let's go around the country, let's see if people will open their trunks and basements. And I'll tell you, this is the strength of the Smithsonian, not me at all. People trust the Smithsonian. So they'll open their trunks and they'll say, here's this material from Emmett Till, or here's this material from George Washington Carver. Here's some material from somebody you'd never know, but whose story is important. And so what I love is being able to share my excitement about history, get people to recognize that they too are the stuff of history and that their family stories are as important. We're not all Frederick Douglas, we're not all Rosa Parks. But we all contributed to shaping a culture and a country. And if we can help people recognize that, then suddenly, that pocket watch that they'll find from their great grandfather, who was a Pullman Porter, takes on new meaning.

Alan Fleischmann 

What strikes me so much, Lonnie, is that you—I remember being very involved with you, obviously, when Robert Smith gave the resources where they explore your family history center, the Robert Smith Center. And even then you were talking about how it's so important that it not just be the Harriet Tubmans and the Frederick Douglasses or the famous athletes or the famous scientists, but it had to be everybody's museum. But you even went beyond that. It wasn't the black museum.

Lonnie Bunch

That's right.

Alan Fleischmann 

You know, when you talk about culture and history, you made it be our museum. No matter where you are, who you are, where you come from, this is your history too. And that was the brilliance there too because it wasn't like a museum say, Okay, this is the museum we got to build for African Americans. This was the museum we had to build for Americans.

Lonnie Bunch

I think that was the most innovative part of our vision to say that this is a story that's too big to be held by one community. It's the story that profoundly shapes us all. And I was lucky. I came along after 50 years of real scholarship. So there was a lot that I could draw from. From the John O. Franklins and others. But I think I felt that the most important thing we could do is say, This is the story of us all. And by doing that, what you do is you expand the notion of who America is. Rather than say, Oh, that's an interesting ancestry story. Because it's not my story. Suddenly, you realize it is my story. It shaped exactly what I know about our notions of citizenship, our notions of fairness. So that, to me, was the most important part of what we tried to do, in essence, to find a balance that said, if you're of this community, you will dip deeply into this and you will learn, you will see yourself. But if you're not of this community, you'll still dip deeply in it and you'll understand yourself better than ever before.

Alan Fleischmann 

That's how you feel, Lonnie, when you walk into the bottom floor. You could spend a week because it's really the history, heavy history and you feel so humble and so moved emotionally. And as you go up every floor, I really feel like you're lifted. And by the time you get to the top floor, you're really about music and culture and sports in a different way. And that's when you realize how much of your music, how much of your own culture, how much of your own love of sports is being honored, and frankly celebrated in a museum and then you leave on a high. I believe that the bottom floor really is tough and new. And as you go up, you embrace—you're dealing with adversity all along, you're dealing with incredible obstacles and hurdles just like you did growing up. But then you come out of there and you realize it's a celebration of America.

Lonnie Bunch

Absolutely. If you don't come through that museum changed, and ultimately hopeful, then I failed. Because it seems to me that one of the things I love about history, especially African American History is that here are people who love the country that didn't love them. Here, people who believed and had a vision for what America could be, but I can't imagine how they could have that vision.

Alan Fleischmann 

And served in the defense of a democracy that wasn't actually democratic for them. Exactly.

Lonnie Bunch

 Exactly. To suddenly say, here it is. We care. I wanted you to see that how we are made better by that caring. Plus I just love history. Good Lord, I do.

Alan Fleischmann 

Is there a favorite exhibit that you have and is there a favorite exhibit you'd like to have?

Lonnie Bunch

Well, these are what I like to have is Willie May’s his glove. I’m baseball fan, but the exhibit that moves me the most, obviously, is Emmett Till’s casket because I knew Emmett Till's mother in Chicago. Studs Terkel, the great oral historian introduced it to me. And she used to say to me, as we got to know each other, that she carried the burden of Emmett Till for 50 years. And now I needed to. So part of this was—often what I try to do is pay back debts, right? That here was a woman that shared her life with me, I want to make sure that story is remembered. So the museum is ripe with scholarship, and unbelievably personal.

Alan Fleischmann 

I would say the thing that you learned on that train rides in upstate New York, that you learned about chits from that older man. When I think of you, I don't think of you of having chits for you, I think the view of having chits for others. A kind of currency in the bank. When you come back and make something happen, often it's because you want to celebrate somebody else. And when you're in that museum, I feel like you had to do an enormous amount of convincing. I mean, if there's the art of the negotiation. That's your next book, how did you negotiate and get people to give up? Because you're right, so much is in people's attics? And how do they actually want to believe that giving it to you isn't giving it up? And the fact that you've even digitized things, and you've made it 21st century and you've made it living? But how do you convince people? It has to be an enormous task.

Lonnie Bunch

I think its both the ability to tell stories, to sort of immediately connect with people. I don't know how I have it, but I have this ability to sort of sit down with people and understand what they need, where they want to go. And then the other thing is that when I'm talking to somebody, it's not phony. At that moment, they're the most important people in the world. And I need to stay focused. And so that gives me the opportunity to listen and be made better.

Alan Fleischmann 

Well, you're listening to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM, I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. I'm here with my good friend, the 14th Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, Lonnie Bunch, who is telling us about the story of not only what he's dealing with as the leader of 19, museums, 21 libraries, and the National Zoo, but he really is the first African American not only to hold that position, but he is the creator and the founder of the National Museum of African American History and Culture. Leaving that Museum, which you had built, which you had to have been so hard, even though it's the same institution, obviously, it's part of the Smithsonian, it could not have been an easy thing for you to make that—what an honor obviously, and what a historic honor, and obviously never been done before. But to leave that institution that had been your baby, and now be the parent, if you will, the leader of all of these institutions, must have been a big deal and a big decision.

Lonnie Bunch

Yeah, I'm still not sure I made the right decision. But part of it was it was so hard to leave because it was a family. You know, I built that staff. It was the most diverse staff of any museum in the country. And that was so important to me. And leaving it was really awfully painful. But the only reason I left was because I love the Smithsonian so much. Because I felt that maybe I could contribute in modest ways to helping the Smithsonian continue to become a great 21st-century institution. The Smithsonian gave me everything, right? I met my wife at the Smithsonian, it gave me a career, more importantly, gave me a calling. And so I felt that at this sort of stage in my life, that my job was to give back to the institution that shaped me. That's honestly why I took it. But I must admit, there are days where I'm thinking, what are you kidding me? You could be teaching somewhere, no stress. But I also know that—and this is gonna sound awful. I'd rather lead than follow.

Alan Fleischmann 

Yeah, I don't know, I can't imagine you ever being a follower. And I think obviously when you took the job—I think education has always been your passion. And you wanted that to be one of the landmark parts of your tenure. Then the pandemic comes along. And I got to imagine that obviously, all the public institutions in our country right now are closed. Certainly the Smithsonian, but you're keeping it alive. I think not just preparing it for when we all open up, hopefully, sooner than later. But you're keeping it relevant right now, which is hard to do. That's a very different task of education only.

Lonnie Bunch

Well, I think that part of what hit me is that these are the kinds of things I know how to do, right? I know how to stay focused, I need to think about a vision. And I felt that it was important for the Smithsonian to say, even though our buildings are closed, our expertise, our collections, our scholarship is not. And therefore, let us get it out digitally. And I love the way the Smithsonian has responded. We've created something called Smithsonian cares, all the educators put amazing content on it, to help the parents who are struggling to be teachers and help the students. And so suddenly, what it's done is I've told people, let's not think about this as how to get through a pandemic, let's think about how we use this to also transition us into a 21st-century institution that's more nimble.

Alan Fleischmann

You're advancing it now. You’re on the defense rather than the offense.

Lonnie Bunch

I'm not a tread water guy. And so what I wanted to do is to say, let's look at how we accelerate the digital. Let's look at how we make the Smithsonian a valued educational partner. Let's think about are there organizational changes and structural needs that we've never thought about, that we never wanted to do? Because they were too difficult. Maybe now's the time to do that. And ultimately, I want people to say, this is the moment where we realized just how valuable the Smithsonian was because not only did it help us understand the pandemic, understand the virus. But it also helped us grapple with the fear. It helped us find our common humanity helped us remember the beauty, it helped us realize that we're better when we come together and cross these lines to help a country make better. That's what I wanted us to do.

Alan Fleischmann 

Yeah, there's no issue, no topic that I can imagine that the Smithsonian doesn't touch, historically, or in the future. I mean, really, from science, to thinking math, genius, history, culture. I mean, everything we treasure, you're touching in some way through all the different galleries, museums, and institutions.

Lonnie Bunch

I think that's the strength of the Smithsonian. We want to use it more. Today, when we think about education, we think about crossing lines, blurring these lines understanding how science shapes culture, how culture shapes history, and so we're better than the Smithsonian. I mean, I spent time up at our Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory talking to the people that figured out how to take the image of the black hole. It's amazing to me that the Smithsonian is this amazing resource, and that what we want to do is both let the public understand better what we do, but continue to do the research that we've done on coronaviruses. You know, some of the smartest people in the country work at the Smithsonian thinking about this. So my job is to figure out a way to illuminate all the dark corners of the Smithsonian and let the Smithsonian be the Smithsonian by helping people be made better.

Alan Fleischmann 

You know, you inspired me when I was looking, reading your book, and then preparing for this conversation on Leadership Matters. One of the things that inspired me, is your insatiable curiosity. And when I think about the best quality of a great president, or a great CEO, or a great governor, or a great leader in anything is that they have this extraordinary curiosity. And that seems to be the one thing, when I think of the Smithsonian, when I think of being a father of two daughters, you're the father of two daughters, I think of the fact that I want my kids more than anything else, to have a life just with wonder and curiosity and passion. And when I think about what we're missing right now, during the pandemic, and I hope that we figure that out as a loss that we get online now, digitally, but that as soon as these buildings are open, again, that we rush to the door, because without the Smithsonian without museums without living institutions you've helped create, we can't fulfill the full promise of that curiosity. And I'm just curious, both as the chief executive officer of these extraordinary institutions, and the 14th Secretary of the Smithsonian, but also as a leader, how much do you value curiosity and other skills like that? Other traits?

Lonnie Bunch

I mean, I think curiosity is crucial. I had to tell my new staff at the Smithsonian, I got to go visit all the museums. Don't keep me in my office. That isn't who I am. I've got to be able to say hi to the guards, or go look at a curator doing something that I don't understand. But I will by the time we leave. For me, it's curiosity. It's fairness. It's recognizing the greater good for me, that's always the key. How does what I do matter? for the greater good? Yes, we've got to make sure the revenue source is right. We got to do all of that. But it's really not about that. It's about saying, how do we make a place better? Make a world better? So for me, it's about fairness. It's about curiosity. It's about efficiency. You know, I hate wasted time. And I hate missed opportunities. So I keep coming back to what I think is the best definition I've ever heard of leadership, which is a great leader defines reality and gives hope. I love it. That's what I think I try to do.

Alan Fleischmann 

And you have role models that you think of the draw from history since you're such a historian?

Lonnie Bunch

Well I mean, I look at a lot of people. And I'm so moved. I mean, I learned so much from people like Dick Parsons, and Ken Chenault and Robert Smith. But looking back in history, I really look at people who persevere. I look at John Johnson, who created Ebony. Here's somebody that envisioned something when the world saw black people in a stereotypical way said, let me counter that. And I can make a business model that would work. So for me, it's really been about recognizing I don't have a monopoly on wisdom, and recognizing that history is that reservoir of wisdom that I can dip into.

Alan Fleischmann 

And are you bringing African American history to other institutions? Because I imagine if everything's in one Museum, and not telling the story, through all the extraordinary museums and galleries that we have, that would be a missed opportunity.

Lonnie Bunch

I said that the most important thing was that the museum that I built would not be the only fount of African American History. We never took collections. from other museums. There's amazing African American art at the Smithsonian art museum with the National Portrait Gallery. There's great stuff, some of which I collected at the Museum of American History. So the goal was to say that the Smithsonian is special because the Smithsonian gives you different portals into what it means to be an American. And you should be able to get to that through the Air and Space Museum and technology or get to that to the African American Museum or the Native American Museum. So for me, it was a kind of—I'm a child of the 60s, an integrated approach. And so for me, it's about making sure that the Smithsonian reflects the diversity of this country, in all aspects, in all of its collections, and of staff throughout the Smithsonian, and people who are serving on its boards. So that's one of my challenges.

Alan Fleischmann 

I think right now, I think of again, curiosity, the other great Mandela quote, in my life that I always tell my kids and I live by is “Courage is not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it.” When I hear your story that you're telling about giving the report in front of the class, and you learn whenever you're fearful, that means you actually know that we're always fearful as human beings. People learn to overcome it. You know, we're living in a very fearful world right now, there's a lot of worry. I'm sure you've got people who were looking to you every day for optimism, you yourself have to kind of curate that as well. How do you do it and what are you optimistic about?

Lonnie Bunch

You know, as a historian, you realize that this moment will pass, we will be changed, it won't be without loss. But that ultimately, the best thing you can do is figure out how to be prepared when you come out the other side, right? And so what I try to do is give people hope, is to make sure everybody who works for me knows I care about them more than anything else. They know that I believe in creating a sense of family. I think that one of the criticisms you can make of me is that I tend to bend over backward for people that have done good work. Maybe keep them around longer than I should. But for me, it's about recognizing that folks are special, and they need to be treated specially. You will never ever see me yell at anybody, other people. I'm not criticizing you, I would never do that. I remember somebody yelled at me once. And it I was really early in my career and I said, are you crazy? Do you think yelling at me will get me to move better? So what I wanted to do was to learn how to manage so that I had the skills that the person that needed to be kicked in the butt, I knew who that was. The person that needed to be challenged, I knew how to do it that way. So it really was understanding people and recognize that there's no one way to lead, but that the best thing that you can do in leadership is to recognize you've got so many different talents, you make sure you help each of them find their fullest potential.

Alan Fleischmann 

Is there another book in you?

Lonnie Bunch

Boy, there's a whole lot of books with me if they have the time. You know, I think there's probably one that is even more autobiographical. You remind me. I don't think that I'm anything special or my history is all that important. But I think it illuminates the changing notions of race over the last now 67 years. It both inspires and it's got a lot of cautionary tales. And so I think I'll probably do that. But then I think that when I step away from the secretary, I'll probably just write some more great history. I might do a history of film or something just so that I can remember to be a historian.

Alan Fleischmann 

You know, I think that you writing a book about leadership would be brilliant. And drawing from folks kind of the way you've dealt with everything. Regular people who you might not know about, they may be invisible if you don't tell their story, like you've done so beautifully, not only about your family, but about so many families. But also the people that we should know about that, frankly, we don't know about enough. Or we think we know, and there are so many layers to their leadership that, frankly, you just take the top-level thing and you don't necessarily know it all.

Lonnie Bunch

I agree. I just hope that when all is said and done, that I've contributed to the Smithsonian, I hope that the work we did at the museum will shape the way people think about what museums can talk about, hope it influences museums around the country to be bolder, to be more candid, to have confidence in people's ability to learn, and to explore. And ultimately, what I want people to realize is that I never once thought about leadership about me, I always thought that it was about someone else. And my job was, as I tell people all the time, I may not pat you on the back every day because you're getting the acclaim anyway. Do the good work and that'll get you there. I feel very uncomfortable, to be hones, then people make a big deal about me, I really do. I can hear my father say don't believe your own clippings.

Alan Fleischmann 

I'll be great. That would be great title of your book, by the way. I love that. Let me ask you a question. Because as we're the last few minutes of the show, you are somebody who doesn't ask a lot. But you probably should. As we have these listeners here we have millions of people go on Sirius XM every day. And I hope millions listen to this show. And when they're hearing about Lonnie Bunch, who is a historic figure ,who's actively in the arena dealing doing things that frankly, one can only imagine if you're Lonnie Bunch, and then we follow? What would you want us to do if, during this pandemic, in particular, as we're in this transition, but more importantly, even beyond? If you had one, two, or three things you would ask us to join you on your effort? What would that be?

Lonnie Bunch

I think it would be, one, to support cultural and educational institutions like the Smithsonian. That these are the places that are the glue that holds community and country together. I think the second thing I'd love is for people to recognize that it hurts when we're divided. And that the challenge for America is to recognize we'll always have political differences, but we've got to find common ground. We've got to find that way. So that as Martin Luther King said, we could move towards a beloved community. That's what I’d like.

Alan Fleischmann 

I love that. And then know that we have something in these institutions, at the Smithsonian particular, that is a gift to the world, not just to Washington, and certainly to the country. This has been such an honor, we could do this for two hours more. I’m glad you gave me an hour of your time. I am so grateful to you as a friend. And I am so grateful to you as a guest as a constituent of yours. Because I see you as my leader in so many ways and I just want to say on behalf of Leadership Matters, and on behalf of Sirius XM, and you'll see that this show will be played a few times because you are a historic leader, not only now, but you will always be known as that and you're still as relevant today and tomorrow, as any leader there is. So I just want to say on behalf of so many listeners, so many people, thank you for all that you do. And I hope that the next years of this journey will be as profound as the past because I know with you the best is yet to come. Thank you so much.

Lonnie Bunch

My so kind, thank you so much for what you do. I appreciate it. And now you take care, my friend.

Alan Fleischmann 

I'll talk to you soon. Thanks so much. Bye.