Mack McLarty

Chairman of McLarty Associates, Former White House Chief of Staff

“I think one of the great things we all know about leadership is knowing when your timing is right, knowing when you're able to do the right thing for your service and your purpose, but also figuring out who your successor is.”

Summary

In this episode of Leadership Matters, Alan and his good friend Mack McLarty talk about Mack’s career in leadership in the private and public sectors and the qualities of a good leader.

When Bill Clinton won his bid for the presidency in 1992, he asked Mack to be his Chief of Staff. In that role, Mack saw the theme of opportunity, responsibility, and a sense of community and was proud of what occurred there, including the job creation and growth of incomes at all levels.

Mack left the position but stayed at the White House as counselor to the president, where he helped oversee the Centennial Games in Atlanta and the first Summit of the Americas in Miami. He gained an interest in the Americas as he saw that the Americas shared interests in security, prevention of narco-trafficking, and the environment.

Mentions & Resources in this Episode

• Robert Strauss was chairman of the Democratic Party who had served Democratic and Republican presidents

• Dale Bumpers served as the governor of Arkansas

• David Pryor is an Arkansas politician and held the positions of state House of Representatives member, U.S. congressman, governor, and U.S. senator

Guest Bio

Thomas F. "Mack" McLarty, III (born 1946) is an American business and political leader who served as President Bill Clinton's first White House Chief of Staff from 1993 to June 1994, and subsequently as Counselor to the President and Special Envoy for the Americas, before leaving government service in June 1998.

Previously, he was chairman and CEO of Arkla, Inc. (1983-1992), a natural gas company. During that time, he was appointed by President George H.W. Bush to the National Petroleum Council and the National Council on Environmental Quality, and he served on the St. Louis Federal Reserve Board.

McLarty was raised in Hope, Arkansas, where he leaned respect and dignity for the people around him. He went on to study at the University of Arkanas, and served in the Arkansas state legislature, where he learned the importance of bipartisanship.

He is currently the Chairman of McLarty Associates, an international strategic advisory firm headquartered in Washington, DC, and chairman of the McLarty Companies, based in Little Rock, Arkansas.

Follow Mack on Twitter, LinkedIn, or maglobal.com.

Clips from this Episode

• What the COVID-19 Pandemic has revealed about America

• On his proudest accomplishments during Clinton's productive early years

Episode Transcription

Alan Fleischmann 

You're listening to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. And I'm here today with a very good friend and someone who might admire very much, Mack McLarty. Glad to welcome you here, Matt. There are few people I know that you can really talk about whoever had a career around leadership and executive decision-making under pressure like Mack has. He's been best known as having served as White House Chief of Staff to President Clinton and the first White House Chief of Staff under that presidency. And before that, he advised President Jimmy Carter and President Herbert Walker Bush. He's part of, sadly, an endangered species of leaders who are loved and respected by Democrats and Republicans alike. During his tenure as President Clinton’s Chief of Staff, Mack spearheaded the enactment of so many important and significant things such as bills that became laws that impact is still with us today. The Family and Medical Leave Act, reducing federal headcount and spending to historically low levels. The Motor Bill, the largest deficit reduction plan in history, the expansion of earned income tax credit, the student loan reform, empowerment zones, the Childhood Immunization Program, AmeriCorps, the Brady Act, and NAFTA. Moreover, these successes were built around a philosophy of reaching across the aisle and finding a 202002common cause. Born in Hope, Arkansas, Mack has been a council of foreign leaders and is considered a great statesman across the globe. He helped orchestrate peace processes for Bosnia and Guatemala and re-engage Latin America to a degree, not since the Kennedy administration. He holds the highest honors of Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, and Venezuela. Mack is a tremendous leader in both the public, private and civil society sectors. He holds the distinction of having been the youngest CEO of a Fortune 500 company. And today, Mack serves as chairman of the global consulting firm McLarty Associates, as well as McLarty companies, a fourth-generation family transportation business. On a personal note, Mack has been a mentor to me throughout my entire career. And it's his warmth, his elegance, his wisdom, and his grace, that have touched the lives of countless others along the way. It's a special privilege today to have Mack on my show. And I welcome you, my friend on Leadership Matters.

Mack McLarty 

Alan, thank you for an exceedingly warm and generous introduction. Your kind words, obviously are deeply appreciated. As my granddaughter might say, back at you, in terms of the friendship and admiration and respect that I have for you and your family. You have been not only a great friend but a great counselor to me and so many other people. So we have a mutual admiration society, and I look forward to our conversation this morning.

Alan Fleischmann 

I'm so glad you're with us. It's such a special show for me. Let's start at the very beginning, Mack. You were born in hope Arkansas. The same hometown is President Clinton. Your father Frank ran a car dealership that his father started. And your mother Helen was involved in public service. So you were raised into a family that had deep roots in the community. Growing up, did it feel like public service was in your DNA? And was that consciously chosen? Or was that something that you actually, later on, came to?

Mack McLarty 

Well, I think probably a combination of that as you grow and mature and began to think about what you want to do with your life from both a professional and a business standpoint, work standpoint, and personal standpoint. And, of course, incorporated in that is how you're going to relate to other people. Alan, you got it right. As I like to say, my soul will always be in a place called Hope. We still have our family home in Hope, Arkansas. We just did not want to give it up, we still return there for holidays and other special occasions. And my dad, not only my parents who were just such loving, supporting caring parents that set such a high example for me to follow. And they gave me not only unconditional love, but they never pushed me but they always supported me. So that was the bedrock, so to speak, of my childhood in my formative years, including graduating from Hope High School. But growing up in Hope Allen was was a Norman Rockwell existence. And my real point is that there was really the basic tenant of respect for the other person. For the dignity and worth of each person. It wasn't perfect, as any community will not be, but it just had so many redeeming qualities. And I got a very good education. In Hope High School, the teachers there were capable, they were caring, nurturing. So I just got a lot of positive reinforcement. And examples set at all levels, not just the local banker ot a lawyer, as important and impressive as they were, but just throughout the entire community. So it has served me, truly, very well over my life and not just in terms of business or other activities, but just really in terms of my values that where they were forged and shaped. And it's my sense that I just have a debt of gratitude to this place for that so that that's who I am and I'm blessed because of it.

Alan Fleischmann 

Tell us a little bit about your parents if you could, and also how well did you know your grandparents?

Mack McLarty 

Well, not my grandparents were still very much in good health during that time. So I had the good fortune and blessing to know them and to learn from them. I still remember those conversations about how they talked about how much change had occurred in their lives. And thinking at that time 14, 15, 16 years old, I didn't think there'll be that much change in my life. Boy, was I ever wrong with what I've seen over my now 70 plus years. So much remarkable change so many ways, both from a geopolitical standpoint, certainly a technology standpoint, and just in so so many other ways. Mostly for the good. Obviously, change does bring some disruption and unease. Of course, we're really experiencing that now with Coronavirus, which I'm sure we'll talk about. But my parents, as you pointed out, were really just wonderful role models. My father was just right out of world war two, what Tom Brokaw calls the Greatest Generation. Great entrepreneur, great businessman, knew how to motivate people, build people, support people, bigger than life personality but grounded at the same time. We were and are different in our personalities. But he was a wonderful mentor and partner and easy to work with. Sometimes fathers and sons don't always work as easily together as I had the good fortune of working with him in our family business. We lost him far too young. He passed away at 57 so I was just about 30 at that time and so I didn't get to spend as many years working with him and learning from him and just loving him as I would have liked. My mother, on the other hand, I think I'm more like. She's a bit more formal was a bit more formal, encouraged me to write notes after being with people. She helped me with my speeches when I ran for student council office and all that and she was a fierce defender and supporter of me but mainly she was a loving and caring mother. And I just always knew I could depend on them for that unconditional love and support. So you can get me started on Hope and my parents and we'll take up far too much of the program there. Let's be sure we move on.

Alan Fleischmann 

I understand. You actually pursued elective office early in your career. I know as well. You served in the Arkansas legislature. You did decide to kind of focus for a bit on community leadership and business leadership and less on the elected roles. And I'm curious why you didn't pursue high elective office actually.

Mack McLarty 

Well, you're taking me through my life here, Alan, just very quickly. I had been involved in high school in student council, as I've already noted. I had a wonderful mentor, my student council sponsor, Mrs. Williams. A lot of the things she taught me still served me well today, I might add. And at the University of Arkansas, I was privileged to serve as student body president. So I had that interest in public service or in politics and so it was natural when I returned to Hope to think about running for office. A lot of people expected me to. But then all of a sudden, I looked at a very tough race once I'd throw my hat in the ring to be state representative. And I thought, my goodness, if I'm defeated here, this is going to be not the way you want to start your career. My wife of now 50 plus years, Donna, and I had just married. And we're not at our first child Mark, but we're certainly thinking about starting a family. So it seemed to me the odds were pretty high. And therefore, it concentrated our efforts, as those types of situations stand to do. And we worked extremely hard and we're gratified that we won that race, really, with an overwhelming majority. I'm grateful for that to this day. I had the real privilege, Alan, of serving in the Arkansas State Legislature under Dale Bumpers, who had just been elected. And Arkansas had a tremendous progressive tradition there of leadership, with Dale Bumpers, and then David Pryor, whom I was privileged to work with and serve as his campaign treasurer and serve as the chairman of the Democratic Party later. And then, of course, Bill Clinton, and then later, Governor Mike Beebe. All of those governors from the democratic side, including Jim Guy Tucker who also served, were progressive, thoughtful leaders. And when I say progressive, I mean forward-looking. Representing the new south. They really brought about great change. They were popular, they were well respected, they were trusted. And in that time, the state did move somewhat to the more conservative Republican side reflecting the national landscape. Of course, Bill Clinton had been president during that time, as well, but Mike Huckabee was from Hope, so I need to be sure I live up to your bipartisan billing. But that was my tenure in the Arkansas legislature going back to that. Once our first child was born, Mark, I really thought I had to concentrate on my responsibilities as a father and a husband as well as in our family business, which is now a fourth-generation business. I was doing a lot of traveling. And I just didn't think I could serve the people of Harrison County in the manner that they deserved. But then, later on, David Pryor ran for governor and asked me to be his campaign treasurer. I was privileged to do that, as well as work up in his administration as chairman of the Arkansas Democratic Party and then on the National Democratic Committee. So that's how I re-entered politics a few years later.

Alan Fleischmann 

That's great. It's widely known that you were kindergarten classmates with Bill Clinton and your paths crossed continually growing up. But it really wasn't until later that you became close. I think I'm right on that. Tell us about your relationship with President Clinton.

Mack McLarty 

Well, you've got it largely right. And you're right, I was very fortunate and serendipitous there to have the opportunity to be around so many outstanding people from a political leadership standpoint that I've already noted. But bear in mind, in those same years, I had the rare opportunity to work with Sam Walton, who founded Walmart and Don Tyson to founded Tyson Foods and just so many other business leaders. And so I'm, like all of us, proud of our home state. And I'm proud of Arkansas and those business leaders. They were iconic figures, both when they were living and continue to be to this day. But certainly, President Clinton was a fortuitous serendipitous moment there. We did go to kindergarten together. The President moved to Hot Springs when he was seven years old. So we really didn't grow up together in Hope. But we did begin to reunite, Alan, a bit earlier than you suggested. But you're still generally right in your framing of our friendship and long relationship. And I think it's fair to say that Bill Clinton is a true lifelong friend. And we'll kind of get into that maybe during my time in the White House and how that kind of has the impact or influence in your interaction. But we started working together when we were in high school at Boys State. He went to Boys Nation I was Governor of Boys State and of course, that's when he had that famous handshake with John Kennedy. And I would visit then student Bill Clinton at Georgetown every year and he would visit me in Arkansas every year. So we maintained a relationship and a friendship and it grew. And then he ran for office when I was chairman of the Democratic Party, Alan, for Congress against John Paul Hammersmith, who was a moderate Republican, very popular in the state, and he was defeated. So John Paul Hammersmith defeated beat Bill Clinton in that race, but it was a good starting point. And two years later, Bill Clinton ran for attorney general and was elected, then ran for governor. I've had the privilege to be his campaign Treasurer as well. And, as they say, the rest is history.

Alan Fleischmann 

That's amazing. After Bill Clinton was elected in 1992, he asked you to lead his transition team. And then he asked you to serve as White House Chief of Staff. Looking back, you led through pretty extraordinary times. It was an astonishing period, under your leadership and that of the president, of legislative accomplishments arguably probably the most productive. And I've heard this from many not just for me here. Many would say that it was probably the most productive first year of any presidency that we've ever seen. What what are the one or two or three of the successes that you're most proud of, in those early days under President Clinton?

Mack McLarty 

Well, I first thank you for your kind and affirming words about the Clinton-Gore administration. I think to frame it a bit just to touch a perspective, Governor Clinton and I had worked together in a very purposeful manner to establish what was called the New Democrat movement, the Democratic Leadership Council, and that was really an effort to move the Democratic Party more to the center in its philosophy, but just even more importantly, to have new fresh ideas. And Governor Clinton really personified that, as did Senator Sam Nunn. And then-Governor Chuck Robb, later Senator Chuck Robb, and many others. So that's how Bill Clinton ran, was as a New Democrat. And when he challenged a very popular president George HW Bush, whom you noted, I had the privilege to work with and just had such enormous respect and regard for. But then-candidate Clinton, Governor Clinton had new ideas. He focused on the economy. The campaign became “It’s the economy, stupid.” He talked about welfare to work. He talked about a different approach in some areas of International Affairs and pulled off this upset. But you got to remember, Alan, Governor Clinton only got 43% of the vote. Ross Perot was a third-party candidate, and he got 19% of the vote. But what that suggested to me is the American people, 60% plus, voted for change. Despite the fact that President George Herbert Walker Bush had done a good job. We had the Iraq war and so forth. People felt it was time for a change, primarily only the economic front. It certainly wasn't any personal distrust or animus towards George Bush. People just wanted change more in a different direction. And Bill Clinton was that person. But we did not start with a mandate. But those legislative initiatives, and I would really say the foundation for the Clinton presidency was President Clinton's economic plan. It was really to go right down the middle to really support the economy, to have work and responsibility at the same time, opportunity and responsibility, to really focus on getting the budget under control, which I really was not certain we could ever balance the budget, but I thought we could slow the rate of growth of the deficit. So that was at the heart of his first term. That was his first legislative initiative. And we were able to pass that. That really gave us a foundation. I think people then started really having some confidence. But also, President Clinton, who was a governor, of course, had to step on the international stage and establish those relationships. And that was crucial. So that was very much part of the first year. I think, following that, you mentioned or noted the North American Free Trade Agreement that was outward-looking, establishing a relationship with Mexico and Canada. And then right behind that was welfare to work, which was so important to follow up. Again, following this theme of opportunity, responsibility, and a sense of community and a miracle where you had really kind of a renewal of the Peace Corps involving young people and helping others was part of that. So these were fresh, big, bold ideas, but they were all grounded in engaging the American people and trying to bring out the best in them and at the same time, to move forward with the federal government in a responsible financial manner. And I think history will judge all that pretty favorably. And we were proud of what occurred there, including the job creation and growth of incomes at all levels, including balancing the budget as you noted. So that was kind of the first year. That was the focus of the economy and establishing international relations around the world and relationships and friendships with world leaders. So it was a big job for sure.

Alan Fleischmann 

As you're talking, I'm thinking during the campaign, that slogan, “It’s the economy, stupid” and I'm also remembering now that you brought it up, that my strong memory of that Georgetown speech about the New Democrat. They really did create the Democratic Leadership Council, which was the kind of the centrist Democratic Party and the idea of actually crossing the aisle and working together. And I know, one thing that people may not know about you, but I did mention it. I want to underscore it. The choice of you, as White House Chief of Staff, I imagine, for President Clinton was also because you were no stranger to Washington. I mean, he had been governor in Arkansas, he had certainly served there. But when you're a governor, you're not as fluid about the protocols and processes of Washington. You had advised prior presidents. So the fact that you were no stranger to Washington probably gave the administration a leg up and an opportunity to kind of have those bipartisan cross-the-aisle conversations that led to those victories early on.

Mack McLarty 

Well, thank you for your kind words. I had traveled to Washington as a member of the Democratic National Committee when Governor David Pryor was in office in Arkansas. The real icon is, I think, Bob Strauss. Robert Strauss was chairman of the Democratic Party who had served presidents both on the Democratic and Republican sides later. So he was a tremendously respected figure and someone that I learned a lot from in my late 20s. So that was certainly a great opportunity to establish relationships and friendships in Washington and across the country. But also, when I had the opportunity to serve as chairman and chief executive of Arkla Gas, which was a regional natural gas company and New York Stock Exchange company. One of the few New York Stock Exchange companies in Arkansas at the time. But we built that to become the largest natural gas distributor in the nation, save the two distribution companies in California, and have the largest mid-continent pipeline presence to take advantage of low cost and environmentally pure and domestically produced natural gas and move that natural gas to the Midwest and the Northeast. So that brought me to Washington working with not only President Bush but members of Congress and certainly the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. So that was a great precursor to my being in the White House. And I think it was important at night to be balanced here. Governor Clinton had studied at Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar. So he already was grounded there in his early years in terms of International Affairs. As governor of Arkansas, he had made a number of trade missions because Arkansas is a major agricultural producing state. So he was quite knowledgeable on the international front not. But that's not quite like being J. William Fulbright and the chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee from Arkansas during his time as Senator. So he did have to really work and we had to work hard at his establishing his relationships with world leaders, which he did in a very skilled manner. But he also, Alan, you mentioned bipartisanship, Governor Clinton had been active with President Bush 41. Now they did run against each other. It was a brief, heated campaign. And it took a little while for the relationship to come back full circle, but obviously, in the later years, President Bush 41 and President Clinton became great friends and did enormously good work around the world. But Governor Clinton had worked with President Bush on educational reform and that was quite important. So he had some long-standing friendships in Washington and around the world. I did as well and I would like to think they complemented each other and we got off to a pretty good start. You always have a few challenges in any first-year administration. In our case, remember, the Republicans had been in office for 12 years. So big change in terms of getting your cabinet in place, your White House staff. And, Alan, I think importantly, not to get off the subject, but it's very relevant to what we're seeing now, particularly with the unusual circumstances we're living in with the Coronavirus, presidential transitions are very important. And they became even more important after 9/11 and after the 2008 financial crisis. And when Governor Clinton was elected, it was, frankly felt that if you had much time, dedicated to a transition before the election, it was pretty easy for the press to accuse you of measuring the drapes and being arrogant and so forth. Now, I think transitions are looked at very differently. The federal government actually provides funding. And I think that's a major positive change and positive step. But that was kind of the way that President-Elect Clinton and I looked at the transition and the first six months, the first 100 days of the administration.

Alan Fleischmann 

You know, you really didn't have a deep long bench. Your point is that for 12 years prior, there had been a republican White House. And then actually, when you think about it, there were only four years before Ronald Reagan of Jimmy Carter. So when you're looking back on your bench to pull from folks that had served before, it wasn't a very deep and wide reservoir. When you think about it, it really was the four years of Jimmy Carter or you'd have to go back earlier to pre Nixon to pre-Ford pre-Nixon into the Johnson Kennedy era. But it was quite a few years back, actually.

Mack McLarty 

Now your ride, I think the transition, which was very quick, I mean, you had the election in early November, and the presidential race, the president-elect raises his right hand on January 20. So that's a very compressed timetable very demanding to get a full government in place, not only the cabinet-level, the White House level, but you've got ambassadors to a point you've got sub-cabinet positions, it’s just a major challenge. They have to be in many cases approved by the Senate. That was a big part of my job early on. And you've alluded to it a couple of times, my relationships on the Republican side of the aisle, were invaluable and crucial in getting our cabinet confirmed. Senator Lott from Mississippi I knew well because Arkla Gas served a good portion of Mississippi. He was very helpful as chairman of that committee to get our cabinet in place. But no, you're absolutely right. There was a lot of talent that Governor Clinton had identified in the New Democrat movement over the years. There were Democratic governors that were certainly members of the Senate in the house. There were business leaders that President Clinton wanted to consider and draw from and did. He wanted his cabinet to be diverse. And we were mindful of that to look like America, as he termed it. So that was a consideration as well. But I think we drew from talent from across the spectrum of leadership in the United States. And while it was predominantly Democrat, as you would expect, as we moved forward, Bill Cohen who served as Secretary of Defense was a Republican senator from Maine. And there were other examples of having either people that had not supported candidate Clinton or were from the other side of the aisle. So we tried to take all that into account. And one other thing, Alan, that the President-Elect and I talked about, was reaching out beyond just the traditional House and Senate members, even Republican and Democrat, and reaching out beyond the White House staff in the cabinet, but to get people like Henry Kissinger and others to give you advice and counsel on certain issues, to not get in that bubble, so to speak, of being President, I think that's quite important.

Alan Fleischmann 

You know, I'm struck by the fact that as you're talking, one thing that is held true under the Clinton administration is that, honestly, I don't think it's been the case so much since. We could recall names of so many, and not only of the cabinet, that were under Clinton. But we could also name many of the figures that were below the cabinet level under President Clinton. There were so many figures that individuals who were leaders who really were household names, not just for those in Washington or in big cities, but, frankly, were known across the country. You didn't really see that you couldn't do that as much with probably prior administrations, or maybe the last one being President Kennedy. And President Johnson. Well, I guess Nixon too because of the controversies. But that's certainly not been the case since where you know so many people and that had to be also around the kind of style of leadership that they clearly you led where you really wanted people to be out there on the frontlines and really held accountable as well.

Mack McLarty 

No, I think Alan, that's a very astute observation. President Clinton really relied on his cabinet, he empowered his cabinet. Richard Neustadt, the noted historian, wrote that he felt the Clinton cabinet was the most loyal and most effective cabinet in modern times. We worked at that in a very serious manner. You had people like Bruce Babbitt, who'd been a governor. You had Lloyd Bentsen, who was enormously respected as Secretary of the Treasury. Ron Brown as the Secretary of Commerce came up with the approach of commercial diplomacy. Secretary Warren Christopher had been Deputy Secretary of State in the Carter years, going back to your earlier points. So I think you're right. And of course, Andrew Cuomo was a young up-and-coming leader, serving his deputy HUD but became quite a figure and personality even back then, and of course now has his daily briefings, which I think he's done a remarkable job and a courageous job of leading New York and the Coronavirus crisis. He's a good man and a good friend.

Alan Fleischmann 

That's great. We're gonna dive into more things on leadership. One thing I want to do before we move into some other parts of your thinking about leadership, I want to mention another thing, which I love, which is when President Clinton won, he won with 43% of the popular vote. Under 50%. And that has much to do with the fact that Ross Perot ran against then-President Bush 41 and Clinton at the time. But he got 43% of the popular vote, which is hard when you're under 50. But when you finished your tenure as chief of staff in June of 1994, he had a 58% approval rating. So those first years were pretty extraordinary.

Mack McLarty 

Well, we did we were able to solidify and polls go up and down. And I think our high point was 58. And that was a little bit earlier than the June date that you noted. It was in January and February of that second year because we’d just come off—it was really interesting to watch the American people, many people had voted for Governor Clinton without really knowing him really well because he was just not known as a national figure. Obviously got to be better known in the campaign. It wasn't someone who had been on the national stage for many years. But people did want a change. They wanted a change in direction, and they wanted some fresh ideas. And Governor Clinton was able to articulate that in such a persuasive and powerful and engaging way. He had this God-given ability that he had honed to engage with people. So he pulled off this upset. But the point I'm making is people would kind of had the feeling okay, I voted for you. I'm going to give you a chance. But I'm not fully persuaded that you're going to be the great president that I hope you will be. And then there were others that had not voted for him, as you said, about 65% there—if you take the Perot vote and the Bush vote. So we had to really build on those initial efforts. But I think once the economy got going, once people could see that, remarkably, the deficit was beginning to decrease, this was a democratic president who was going to be very responsible from a financial standpoint. Once it was shown that President Clinton could step on the world stage and establish relationships and friendships with other leaders from around the world, including Boris Yeltsin of Russia. John Major in the United Kingdom, Helmut Kohl of Germany, Fernando Henrique Cardoso in Brazil, and so many others, people begin to get a sense of conference there and take the measure of this man. And with all of that, going forward, and really following the New Democrat philosophy, the 43% at the January, February, March of the next year rose to 58% which really solidified the foundation. Now then you have these other issues and health care was introduced. That was quite controversial. It had been a major issue in the campaign. And that started to maybe have a little bit of the effect on those numbers, but what it showed is that President Clinton was able to really build that level of trust. And of course, that served him well as the first democratic president that was reelected since Franklin Roosevelt in 1996.

Alan Fleischmann 

Which is extraordinary. You're listening to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. I'm here with my good friend, former White House Chief of Staff, CEO, philanthropist, senior statesman, Mack McLarty. And we're talking about leadership. And we've just been talking about the early tenure, the early years of the Clinton ministration and President Clinton. You decided to step down as Chief of Staff, Mack, and we're going to start talking about other things now. But I wanted to at least mention this because one of the great signs of leadership is to know when you want to serve and how you serve. And it's always that critical thing, whether you're a CEO, or you're an elective office, or frankly, you're just got any form of power. When do you want to switch? And when is it for the right reasons? And one of the things I'm always struck by you, you're extraordinarily humble. You decided yourself to step down as White House Chief of Staff in the summer of 94. Obviously, ushered in so many of the successes we talked about with the president. You had assembled an amazing team. It is all pre health care debate, obviously, that that kind of came following. But you went on to serve in senior roles. We'll talk about that. You certainly continued to serve President Clinton and this administration in various senior roles. But the White House Chief of Staff role is probably the most significant position one could ever have, other than being president, and certainly one of the most sought-after jobs in the world. So just for a minute or two, just share with us a little bit of that thing that led you to say, this is my moment. I know from hearing it from President Clinton himself that was not an easy thing for him to hear. But you felt that that was the right moment for you to decide that it was time for you to step aside and take on other senior roles. But tell us a little bit about that thinking if you could?

Mack McLarty 

Well, first of all, when you mentioned the Chief of Staff role, it is an influential responsibility, there's no doubt about that. You're about 15 steps away from the Oval Office, and the President of the United States. But by the same token, it is Chief of Staff. You do report to the President and you work for the American people. So you have to keep that in mind. It has been called the Chief Javelin Catcher because it can be a lightning rod position. And you're dealing with a lot of broad issues. Trying to give the president the best advice, you can. Manage the White House, manage the cabinet. And of course, a lot of your job is saying no to various requests that come in, as well as build relationships in Congress and all of that. I did not seek the job. I had never worked with Governor Clinton directly. I'd been his treasure when he ran. But I've been a businessman, part of this kitchen cabinet, if you will. But I worked closely with David Pryor and Dale Bumpers when they were governors. So as I had already noted, as a business person and chairman of a publicly held natural gas company, I had worked very closely with President Bush who had appointed me to three presidential commissions. And I just really had the highest respect for him. Now, a lifelong friendship with a governor of your home state with whom you share a political philosophy, i.e. the New Democrat philosophy, when he asks you to help him serve the American people, the right answer barring some personal circumstances it might prohibit or inhibit that is Yes, sir. I'll be honored to do it. And that's so when the President asked me to be Chief of Staff the day after the election, I was very surprised. And I discussed it with him. I did not give him an immediate Yes. And I wanted to understand why he thought I was the right person to do that. And Alan, to summarize, that it was basically I want somebody that I know and trust that shares my political philosophy that can help me organize the White House, organize my administration in the priorities and get started. That was the real unique relationship standing ability, hopefully, that I brought to the table with President-elect Bill Clinton. And so once we got through that first year and really had moved our major legislative initiatives and hand other good initiatives, teed up for the future, established social relationships with the world leaders, gotten the political standing as you kindly noted in terms of the American people's view of this president whom they had gotten to know and taken his measure, we were beginning to get into a highly partisan period of midterm elections. Health care, which is so important to the American people, was a very contentious issue. And that was making things much more partisan in the second year, particularly as we moved into it, which, and all of that just did not play to what I thought were my natural strengths and abilities to make the contribution that needed to be made from that position. I had really served and honored the commitment that I made to President Clinton and the American people. And I really felt like we needed to build on it. And that's why I did recommend Leon Panetta to the president. Leon had been Office of the Management of Budget and had been in Congress was more of a political failure, really, in many ways, particularly from a democratic side than I was, and I felt like those experiences would build on what we accomplished and serve the president well. I really was prepared to step down and just return to the private sector and my family because it's a very demanding responsibility. And Mark and Franklin, our two sons, Mark was a sophomore at Georgetown, Franklin was a senior at Little Rock Central when I was named Chief of Staff. But at that point, President Clinton asked me to stay as a counselor to the President, and that's when I moved into the international portfolio and later to be a special envoy for the Americas. And that was one of the most fascinating, rewarding, gratifying, passages in my work career that I've ever had. So it proved to be something that I really enjoyed and felt like it was important and felt fulfilled by. But I did make the decision that—with the president, obviously. But that it was time for what I called a half change, to build on. By that I mean not a radical change, but taking a half step to build on the progress we'd made. And I think it was the right decision, even with the benefit of hindsight in history.

Alan Fleischmann 

No, I think one of the great things we all know about leadership is knowing when your timing is right, knowing when you're able to do the right thing for your service and your purpose, but also figuring out who your successor is. And in this case, you kind of fulfilled all and did that by recommending Leon Panetta, by saying this is I've done what I can do in the way that best serves the time, which really did have so many extraordinary accomplishments in the second year with those other priorities that were brewing, knowing that there are others that maybe needed to take it on. You mentioned something in passing, I just want to mention something because we share a great love of Latin America and I was a  director of the Subcommittee on Latin America during that period. And the diplomatic work that you did in that newly formed role or that renewed role of being special envoy to the Americas did usher in a whole period. I remember going to the 1994 Summit of the Americas in Miami, the first of its kind, and that you, in that role later on ,as the envoy, which came later I know, really did do what, frankly, no one else has done. I mean, Mack, you're known throughout the hemisphere in a way that frankly, to this day, everyone remembers that President Kennedy's Alliance for Progress, and you had the great fortune of being close to the Kennedy family. And I'm always struck how multi-generational that awareness is about President Kennedy's contributions to the hemisphere. And frankly, as a good friend of Mack McLarty, I'm always struck how many people at all levels know about you and President Clinton's great leadership, and frankly, collaboration throughout the hemisphere as well. You know, this is a region that actually has been long overlooked in history. And you build trust where it had gone a whole different direction during the Cold War. So I just want to mention that, because it does fit in that idea of like we're here talking about bipartisanship nationally or in Washington. Bipartisanship, the way you went around your diplomacy was in a new position, frankly, and building trust is still, frankly, understood and appreciated and respected so many years later.

Mack McLarty 

Well, Alan, thank you for those affirming words. It was not an opportunity that I had focused on or thought about when I first became counsel to the President. It was a broader role after my time as Chief of Staff. And taking on really individual major projects at the direction of the President including the 1996 Olympic Games, which was a great, great joy and great privilege. And of course, it was important to our country and important to relationships around the world and to work with the people of Atlanta and Billy Payne, who was the organizer there and so many others was just a great privilege. But the Latin American assignment has become a very important and meaningful part of my life now for 25 years plus. And it did grow out of the Summit of the Americas. President Clinton had the vision of convening a summit of all the democratically elected heads of state, which would not include Cuba. And it really built on the passage of the North American Free Trade Agreement with Mexico and Canada. And he asked me to help organize that. And that's when I became so engaged in the region in the two and a half years that I've worked in that capacity and responsibility, beginning with a with the summit of the Americans in Miami. And Miami was a great host city, just a perfect venue to have it. That was a bipartisan effort. Again, going back to that theme, and I remember seeing you often as we would travel the Pan American highway together in various wonderful elegant cities around the region. But we did convene that summit in Miami. President Clinton did a masterful job of engaging the leaders there. There were a lot of great leaders in the hemisphere. They appreciated the engagement and recognition of the importance of creating a relationship, the shared interest of security, of trying to much make real progress on narco-trafficking. All of those important areas, including the environment. And I must say that Vice President Gore really led that effort regarding the environment. Of course, Brazil with the rainforest is such a key player in the environment. So it was just a great opportunity for me that I'll always cherish. And I had a double report, so to speak, or double interface with the President who was just always accessible, always engaged, and that gave me a lot of credibility and standing in Latin America with presidents there, whom I was able to establish relationships and friendships and trust, as you noted. But also with Secretary of State Warren Christopher, and then later was Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. So it was important in that job, Alan, I think this is important in terms of government, but in companies as well, to establish rapport, trust, relationships with other key players in the organization, in this case, it was with the National Security Council was Sandy Berger and Tony Lake. It was with the State Department with Secretary Christopher. And Jeff Davidow and Alec Watson were head of Latin American affairs. You have to have compatibility and collegiality and trust with those other people or you will find yourself at odds and just not able to accomplish nearly as much as you otherwise would be able to. So it was a great opportunity and I appreciate your highlighting it. I think as a final word. I think I would be remiss if I did not note that our older son Mark, is how we found Latin America. He actually worked in Bolivia and Brazil in the year before he came to Georgetown. Right after he graduated from Little Rock Central. And that was well before I came into government in the White House with President Clinton. So it was not in a purposeful way or knowing that I was going to serve in government. But that gave me a feel of the wonderful attributes of faith and family and work that I think the Latin American people personify. And that all served me well. And I was just very, very fortunate to have that experience.

Alan Fleischmann  

It speaks to the background that kind of led you in there because so much was about economic focus as well as societal, social, and political focus. I mean, so we really was a bringing forth elements of your, of your journey today. And I would be remiss also, I know we're gonna run out of time, so I didn't want to forget a few things I want to capture. I do want to talk about the pandemic and how you and your wife Donna are addressing it. I will say though, one of the other things that struck me in thinking about this show today was, for a long time, Henry Kissinger was this the only kind of a one-man show kind of guy out there who had had kind of bridged from diplomacy to working with the best of American Enterprise to kind of see the world more globally. When you left the administration, I guess it was in 1998, you really were the first if I if I'm right. Because I was part of the Albright Group and the Stonebridge International world that was born in 2000. I believe that Bill Cohen created his group in 2000. But McLarty Associates, which I know started with Kissinger McClarty, you really were the first of a new generation who understood the power of bringing the best of the private sector, public sector, and civil society together to kind of think more globally and do more globally. And I wouldn't want to not let that be mentioned. Because again, in your own very quiet way, you assembled a pretty extraordinary team. And of folks who had served, who understood the global temperament, but also understood the need to think globally. And as I'm thinking here now, as we're looking at the pandemic, and we're looking at the Coronavirus, one of the things that I know people are really looking at, they're looking at technology and seeing if science going to win, is technology collaboration across borders the answer? There's a lot of folks who are arguing for we got to reaffirm our faith in globalization, which you've been doing with a public policy, from a government and also, as I just said, from a business side for the last decade, 25 years or more. And then there's this issue of leadership and having leaders who are from the private sector who are speaking up and bringing their own ingenuity but thinking globally as well. Is globalization, for example, is xenophobia the dawning of a new day? Are we going to be able to reaffirm our faith in globalization and how important is that to you as someone who's actually been a leader from the private industry and from the public sector for all these years?

Mack McLarty 

Well, you gave me a lot to unpack, there's, as our two sons might say, but I'll try to make an effort to respond to it as directly and succinctly as I can. Number one, our firm is now McLarty Associates. I was very fortunate to have a partnership with Henry Kissinger for 10 years, Kissinger McLarty, and to work with Dr. Kissinger and to have the relationship and trust that we had, that’s special, meaningful and rare. And I'll always be mindful and grateful for that. And I just exchanged communication with Henry last week, and who is still remarkable at 97, offering his words of wisdom and strong views on the important issues of the day. Our firm does have an engagement with companies in the US and around the world, trying to help open markets and solve problems. But, Alan, I think you hit it about right. The world has changed. And part of the Clinton presidency was that the world is beginning to change in terms of interconnectivity and technology. And I think, frankly, Bill Clinton was the right person at the right time, along with Vice President Gore, I'd be remiss if I did not include First Lady Hillary Clinton in that to help manage that change with the support the American people in their understanding and engagement with that change. And I think that served our country well. But I do think that the key is, for America to remain strong at home, we must be engaged abroad. But by the same token, we cannot be engaged abroad effectively unless we are strong at home. So I think that the two are interlinked. They go hand in hand. And certainly, America's interest comes first. That's our priority to safety, security, the welfare, the well-being of the American people. That's a sacred responsibility of any president and public servants. So that's very clear. But it is also clear, what happens over there matters here. And what happens here, matters over there. So I think it is just essential that we continue to stay outward-looking, very realistic in our views. We've got to be very realistic in our engagement, about protecting our interest. But I just think in this interconnected world, with technology and so forth, we can't be an island unto ourselves from an economic or a security standpoint. And the more we can build that common consensus, the better off we're going to be. And where we have legitimate differing of opinions or our interests that are different, whether it be competitive-wise, or perhaps security-wise, we've got to be very realistic about that. And I think that's where the vast majority of the American people are. And I think that's where we should be as a country.

Alan Fleischmann 

That's extremely important. It's probably the highest priority of what we need to focus on the fact that we have to stay global. But we have to make sure we take care of our own. And make sure that we're strong here at home is a really critical message. When we're talking about that new normal, what people are asking about as we come out of here, what it will look like. And I think that's a dead-end question, frankly, because nobody knows there's so much uncertainty, but people have a strong sense of what it should look like. And maybe this is what it always should have looked like, and then this may be an opportunity, I want to spend the last couple of minutes if I could, mentioning also that you mentioned you refer to your two sons, and you did refer to your wife of over 50 years, Donna, and she's in herself, an incredible leader, a global leader in her own right. And she was a chair, co-chair of Vital. And she, I believe, is still the co-chair of Emeritus. And I know that in between the two of you and what you do workwise, what you're doing philanthropically, what she's doing and impacting women and children and family. You know, I see you here in Washington. I see you in New York. I see you globally, both of you. And I'm curious, as you think about what you're thinking about for that new normal, what it should look like, and your efforts both in government still today as an advisor to political failures, your role both in the United States and globally as a business leader, and then you're a philanthropist who's done some extraordinary things with McLarty Scholars and be involved in organizations that matter. What do you think and what do you hope for? I mean, you're a mentor to me, you've been a mentee to others what would you want to challenge those who have access to influence and power to think differently? What would you and Donna want to make sure that we're all kind of galvanizing around so that your grandchildren and hopefully great-grandchildren will see a world that we want to aspire to be, not just a world that we imagined is.

Mack McLarty 

Alan, thank you for your warm words. Donna has been not only a great wife and partner but she has been a real leader in her own right and of course, I'm proud of our two sons and their work and leadership as well as are practically perfect in every way granddaughter, Briana and her daughter in law, Gabriella. So I think what this pandemic has, perhaps, brought to the forefront is just the goodness and decency of the American people. I mean, in times of crisis, and around the world, I might add, whether it's a tornado or a flood, you'll see that in those kinds of situations, but this one has been different. It's been longer-lasting, it's been more impactful. And just the remarkable, remarkable examples of good and caring and contribution, whether it's from the doctors and nurses, first-line responders, essential workers that get up every day and take some real measure of risk to serve their fellow man. And what that really brings us to, is we have lost some sense of our community and togetherness. And that is a concern, particularly in a world that is more interconnected as we just talked about. In many ways it's more competitive, and it has more vulnerability and has more opportunities for some major disruptions, as we're seeing both with this disease and perhaps from a security standpoint. So the stronger, closer-knit, we can be at home and find our common ground and our common values, the stronger and better this country will be for the current generation and for future generations. I think that’s hopefully, what we were seeing examples of that every day during this highly demanding stressful period with the Coronavirus. I hope that will lead us to a better place as we move forward toward the new normal. But the new normal will still very much be based on the same values, the same character, the same work ethic, all of those things that made this country great and will continue to be central and serve as well going forward. So that’s really how I see things.

Alan Fleischmann 

When I told the producers of this show that we're so lucky to have you on. I said this may be one of those that needed to be an hour and a half and not an hour. But unfortunately, we only have an hour slot for this. I just want to say you've been listening to the Leadership Matters on Sirius XM. I'm Alan Fleischmann, your host, and I'm here with Mack McLarty. We've had an extraordinary hour-long conversation and it should have been an hour and a half or two hours. But we're gonna have to have you back on Mack, because I'd love to have you talk a little bit more next time even about but some of the counsel and advice you give to others. You touched on a lot today but I feel like it's one of those things where I need more. So I just want to say thanks. I'm just grateful for you, and I know that our listeners are as well, for your service to this country that continues every day for your leadership, both in civil society and in the public sector. And then frankly, for the global way in which you look at the world as you lead your companies every day and advise CEOs. I just want to say thank you from the bottom of my heart for the impact you've had and you continue to have and I can't wait to our next conversation excellent.

Mack McLarty 

Alan, I return the sentiments to you and being such a good friend to me and so many others and lifting people up and bring the best out of them. And all of us, building on my final comments. Thank you for having me. It's been not only a pleasure but a real privilege.

Alan Fleischmann 

Thank you. Looking forward to more. Thank you so much. My best to Donna.

Mack McLarty 

Okay, take care. Bye-bye.