Marshall Goldsmith
Founder, The Marshall Goldsmith Group
If you don’t leave when people ask you to stay, you’ll be waiting until they ask you to leave.
Summary
This week on Leadership Matters, Alan is joined by Marshall Goldsmith, founder of The Marshall Goldsmith Group, a firm dedicated to providing professional training and leadership coaching services. Throughout their conversation, Alan and Marshall discuss Marshall’s upbringing and early life influences, his career journey, his works as an author and the many lessons in leadership he’s learned along the way.
Mentions & Resources
Guest Bio
Marshall Goldsmith was recognized in 2011 as the most influential leadership thinker in the world by Thinkers50/HBR! Along with being named as the #1 leadership thinker he has also been listed as the #7 greatest business thinker in the world. On November 11, 2013 Marshall was recognized again as one of the top ten Most Influential Management Thinkers in the World -- and the top-ranked executive coach -- at the bi-annual, global Thinkers50 ceremony in London. Many thanks to all of the people who have supported him.
Dr. Goldsmith is the author or editor of 34 books, which have sold over two million copies, been translated into 30 languages and become bestsellers in 12 countries. He has written two New York Times bestsellers.
Episode Transcript
Alan Fleischmann
I'm joined today by one of the world's most influential voices in leadership and executive coaching, Doctor Marshall Goldsmith, recognized as one of the top 10 business thinkers globally by thinkers 50 has spent decades transforming the way leaders approach, their roles, their teams and even their own personal growth. He's the author of multiple New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers, including What Got You Here Won't Get You There and triggers. His books have been translated into dozens of languages, and he's inspired millions and millions of people across the globe, a recipient of a Lifetime Achievement Award from figure 50 and a trusted advisor to many. Marshall is a true gift for connecting with people, offering practical wisdom and creating meaningful change. I'm excited to have him on the show today to discuss his upbringing, his early influencers, his inspiring career, his groundbreaking books and the many lessons in leadership that he's learned along the way. Marshall, welcome to leadership matters. It is such a pleasure to have you on.
Marshall Goldsmith
Oh, thank you for inviting me, and I love what you do too. It's very, very fascinating to me, different than what I do. Very important, very fascinating.
Alan Fleischmann
Well, we help people get out in the world and transform the world, and it's a lonely world leadership for many. And I'm always grateful when I see your name attached to anybody I know. And as I said to you before we went on air, if you're endorsing a book, I tend to buy it. I buy all your books anyway, but I even buy the books that you endorse. Let's talk a little bit about your background. You were born and raised, if I'm not mistaken, in Valley Station, Kentucky. Tell us a little bit about your early life, what your parents did, any brothers and sisters what life was like around the house? Anything special that you'd want us to know about your growing up, but about your folks in particular. I was brought up in very much low income, low education environment. My elementary school, we had an outhouse. The first four years I was in school, we didn't have been indoor plumbing. The High School, one year came in next to last in Kentucky, an academic achievement. So I didn't exactly go to Harvard prep. So I was brought up in a pretty much low income, low education environment. My mother, on the other hand, was she went to college two years and was a first grade school teacher, and my father had some dumb idea that women shouldn't work when they had kids, so she didn't work. Now, the bad news, we got to be poor. The good news, 100% of our school teacher energy was on one student me. I knew how to add, subtract, multiply and divide before I went to school. So you can imagine, especially there I first I was in school, I came home, I told my mother, I'm the smartest person that ever lived.
Alan Fleischmann
You do so much. I love that.
Marshall Goldsmith
Let me tell you, brothers and sisters around the house, no, just me, just you. So you were beloved. The best student was, I was I was her only student. So it was all about me. You're the best student in the house too. That was it.
Alan Fleischmann
And then you later, did you? How long were you home? By her, how long did you I wasn't homeschooled? No, she just taught me. I knew how to add, subtract, multiply and divide before I went to public Oh, wow. Oh yeah, that was, I mean, you know, I went to public school. I thought teacher goes one plus one is two. I'm going, Yeah, nobody knew it, but me, whoa, what's that all about? I love that. And then you went, and it tells us a little bit about some of the schools you went to growing up. Well, then I went to Rose Hulman Institute of Technology, which is excellent engineering school, ranked number one small engineering school the country the last 24 years. Wonderful school. I was not a wonderful student. I had an attitude problem, made five D's. Was lucky to graduate, but last year, I went back and gave the commencement speech, and I got an honorary PhD, and I said, Well, let's hear it for the bottom of the class. Yeah, you don't know there. Sometimes they do okay, you know what? It happens so often where the kids that actually don't necessarily be at the top are the ones who take risk and are willing to actually lean in and learn. And then I went from there to Indiana University, where I got an MBA, again, didn't really learn a whole lot. It wasn't school's fault. And then I got a PhD in the Graduate School of Management at UCLA, the Anderson School. And there I actually started taking things a little more seriously and studying the topics. So that's where I got interested in what I do. My PhD is in organizational behavior.
Alan Fleischmann
Was there a mentor or someone that kind of turned you, that someone inspired you that said, wow, this is an area that I'm interested in.
Marshall Goldsmith
Well, I had several mentors. I'm very blessed over the years. I mean, Peter Drucker was a great mentor and hero of mine, and I met a very famous guy named Dr Paul Hersey, and he and Ken Blanchard invented situational leadership. And, you know, I'm smart enough to just see him teach. And I said, man, that guy's good. I want to be like him. So I said, Look, I'll sit in the back of the room and serve the coffee, whatever. Just let me sit there. And I did. And then one day, he got double. He said, Can you do what I do? I said, I don't know. He said, I'll pay $1,000 for one day. I was making $15,000 for one year. My dad had a gas station in Kentucky. You know what? I said, Yes, sir. So I did a program for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company. They were pissed off when I showed up, because that wasn't him. But he rang first place of all the speakers. So he called him up expecting to get killed. They said, We love this kid. Send him again. He said, you want to do this again? I said, Paul, I'm making 15,000 bucks a year. You're paying me 1000 bucks a day. Sign me up. Coach. That's how I got into the leadership development and then coaching. Also by accident, I was working with the CEO of a big company. I didn't start at the bottom. I mean, I work with Paul, we work with IBM and McKinsey. So we were, we work with blue chip companies from the get go. I was a kid. I was, when I say, kid, I was in my late 20s, working with big people. And then, you know, I worked with a CEO of a company called Warner Lambert, which he ended up getting bought by Merck. And, you know, the CEO said I got this kid working for us, young, smart, dedicated jerk. He said, worth a fortune me if I could change his behavior. So I said, Look, I like fortunes. I saw he said, it, I doubt it. I said, I think I can help him. He said, I don't think so. I came up with the idea, I'll work with a kid for a year if he gets better, pay me. If you don't get better, it's free. You know what? He said, sold. I love that, as you know. I mean, you've had a few of my clients here Uber Jolie, and, you know, they probably told you, I don't get paid. If they don't get better, that's part of your deal. Yeah, it's a deal, yeah, and not judged by me. It's judged by everyone around them. How's that work? You just, you literally have it like a, like a fee at a certain milestone moment, or that's it. And so like in Uber's case, I interview everyone around him, develop a profile. He gets feedback. He picks what he wants to do better. Works hard. I talk about how to follow up with people. He follows up on a regular basis, admits his problems, and then he gets better, and I get paid.
By the way, he wrote a book called The heart of business, I know if you seen that book, but he talks a lot about me in the book. Which book the heart of business? Yeah, virtually, yeah, yeah. We've had him on the show. Yeah. He's a great guy. Just a great guy. Talked about you a lot. Ashley, yeah, that's cool. I love that. I love the fact that you guys, that you know, that people collaborate with one another, and they highlight each other's greatest strengths, which is wonderful.
Alan Fleischmann
That's great so that when you say you started these Roma any, any other mentors you want to mention? Because I love the idea that you said, what you said about having been so lucky to have so many mentors. I tell you your mother was a mentor.
Marshall Goldsmith
Oh, yeah, my mother, Paul, Hersey, Lauren Bennis, Francis, hesselbein, Alan Mulally, just on the phone with Alan. Alan was the CEO Ford, probably one of the great CEOs in our lifetime. And I mean, in theory, I was Alan's coach. The reality is, if I learned, you know, if he learned this much from me, I learned that much from him. So he taught me much more than ever. Taught him amazing CEO, amazing leader. Yeah, he's just amazing human being too. He came to speak at him. Speak several times, and been with him, but he came to speak at when Raj Shah, who's been on the show you and I share as a friend, was the head of USA ID. He had Alan come and give out town hall to what USAID was really one of the most beautiful and powerful town halls I've ever seen. Oh Alan, well, the reason he knows Raj is through me. I imagine that was the case. Yeah, yeah, you are the great connector.
Alan Fleischmann
That's very cool. And then, and any role models today, I'm just, I'm going to get back into talking a little bit about your career and your career and your time at teaching Loyola Marymount University, but I'm curious whether you're being an educator, and I will want to get to hearing about the people you most admire. Maybe we'll hold back on that one for a minute, but the people you most admire as well, but tell us a little bit about what made you then become an educator and go that route for a brief period.
Marshall Goldsmith
You know, I always, my mother was a teacher, and I always liked teaching, and I was I got, fortunately, I didn't get great grades until I got a PhD, but I got very high test scores. And basically I thought, well, you know, I'll just kind of skip reality for a few years get a PhD, which I did, and then it just turned out I really love speaking and teaching, and like a lot of a part of life is a gift. Like me working for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, I was 28 years old, with people at that level, and being a success, that's not hard work. Now, that's basically you study and you love what you do. So you know, a lot of it is just loving what you do. So I no longer give these public speeches. I quit. I retired from that, by the way, just a couple of months ago. What made you decide not to do it for what reason? Tell us, uh, well, I always tell my clients like I told Alan Mulally, leave at the top Uber. Jolie, leave at the top Marshall.
Smith leave at the top. I mean, you know, don't hang around too long. I've had a great career. It's going great if you don't leave. When people ask you to stay, you're going to wait till people ask you to leave. Yeah, it's a great line. Actually. That's one of the hardest decisions to make, especially when you love being in the arena. But it doesn't mean you have to exit stage right for everything. You just decide which things you don't want to be doing anymore, exactly. And I love doing it, and I'm still good at it, but that's a good time to leave, yeah, but definitely retired yet. Oh no, not at all. I work all the time. I'm working on all kinds of cool projects, my biggest projects, my AI computer bot, which is mind blowing. And so I'm working on so many interesting things, new books. And, you know, I was just talking to Alan today. Alan Mulally, he and I are working on a book together. So, you know, just all kinds of fun things.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that, too. So you were Loyola Marymount. You also were at Dartmouth Tuck School.
Marshall Goldsmith
I was, yeah, I loved there. Dartmouth's a great place. Hard to get in and out of. It takes a year hours to get there. But I love it. Beautiful play a little bit, a little bit like Vanderbilt. I'd say, yeah, there's a there's, there's something similar about the two. I think that's right, uh, great leaders, actually, in both cases. See on Bylaw is the is from the University of Chicago, where she was vice provost, and you got Daniel diermeier, the Chancellor of Vanderbilt, who was the provost at University of Chicago, so there's some DNA there too, maybe.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, exactly. But were the different ways that they were there's experiences different for you and how it impacted your views. That did you all have Marymount and the Dartmouth experiences?
Marshall Goldsmith
Well, you know, I learned a lot there. I think I just love teaching, and the part I liked about being a professor was just teaching and coaching, which I just basically to me, my job wasn't that different after I left teaching, because I was still speaking and teaching. I was just doing it in a kind of different place, in a different way. So in my job, if you look at my life, I've done a few things. One, I do, thinking and writing, and so I've done, as you mentioned, I just paused a milestone. I've now just cleared 4 million books. So I sold, sold a bunch of books, thinking and writing. Then I do coaching. What I love about coaching is where I learn everything. So I teaching and speaking. I don't learn anything. I just love doing that. Coaching is where I learn, like working with great people like Alan and Uber and Francis helselman. That's where I learned things. And then so I do speaking, which I love coaching, where I learn a lot. And then the way I reach people is writing or social media. And, you know, I have 1.5 million followers on LinkedIn and and then also say I'm doing my own AI computer bot now, which is mind blowing.
Alan Fleischmann
So tell us a little about that project if you can, it'd be great to hear
Marshall Goldsmith
Yeah, it's, it's, it's an amazing project. What I'm doing is I'm teaching a computer bot everything I know and and when I teach it everything I know, you can ask it questions, and it's all free, so all you have to do is go to Marshall goldsmith.ai. Haven't really started promoting it yet. It's already had 100,000 questions asked, right? So it's pretty mind blowing. And what it does is like, let me give you an example. My daughter Kelly asked it a question. She said, how is your coaching related to utilitarian philosophy? I don't even know what utilitarian philosophy is. It studies utilitarian philosophy. It studies my coaching, and it answers the question exactly as I would have answered it, had I studied utilitarian philosophy, and soon to be in 44 languages. So it's, it's pretty mind blowing. It is just as I say, it's been a mind blowing project. Anybody wants to go, go to Marshall, goldsmith.ai, just my name, plus AI. It's all free.
Alan Fleischmann
What a great what inspired you to do this?
Marshall Goldsmith
Well, you know, I always want to give everything away. And one of my clients is called fractal analytics. And, you know, I don't know if you know about India, but in India, there's a term guru, yeah, Guru just means teacher in Hindi, and I'm the guru. And, you know, they basically love what I do, and they felt they have helped them a lot, and they this is a favor they did for me. I mean, they've spent a lot of time. I got eight engineers in India working on this. So it's just, you know, it's just mind blowing. And right now I'm writing a new book. Well, it's kind of the world's first AI book. So you'll be able to go to my computer bot and get everything from the book on my computer bot. Let me just give you an example.
My coaching is related to Buddhist philosophy through the integration of key principles such as mindfulness, compassion and the understanding of impermanence, I encourage clients to be fully present and aware, which aligns with the practice of mindfulness which is compassion is central to my coaching. As I strive to foster empathy and kindness within leaders towards themselves and others. Lastly, by helping clients to embrace change and understand that all things are in flux, I draw on the Buddhist concept of impermanence to assist them in becoming more adaptable and resilient. These principles guide my coaching practice and support my clients in their personal and professional development and is soon going to be able to speak in 40 languages.
Alan Fleischmann
And that's amazing.
Marshall Goldsmith
By the away, you know, there's so many wonderful people we know in the world, like yourself, who we want to influence at scale beyond you. Jane Goodall is a great friend, and we work closely together, and she we want her to, you know, she travels 300 days of the year, but we want to be able to reach people, so it's not just dependent on her being in the room, yes, so you're inside and wisdom and and the millions and millions of people that have now read your books.
Alan Fleischmann
What you're giving them is you have access to you at wherever they are, and it's free. It's free. Yeah, what a great – I love it. I love it. Wow, that's amazing. Actually, I love that.
And it sounds like it's a great it wasn't, wasn't wasn't too hard to do, because you could just build all your, all your insights.
Marshall Goldsmith
I put in hundreds of hours on this. This is not so easy to do, all right? It's like anything in life. It's easy to do. It's hard to do. Well, yeah, and so what I've done is I have an edit mechanism, so I literally ask it question after question after question, I look at the response and edit it. Now, the AI bot is a fascinating it's been a great learning for me. By the way, every computer bot is biased. Let me tell you what I mean by that. If you ask a computer bot a question, what is leadership? And it answers it. It's biased. There are 100 possible answers. Why this answer, my computer BOD is biased. It's a little different though I'm the bias. And my old mentor, Dr Hersey, taught me never argue about semantics. You just say this is the way I define things. Buddha said, only do what I teach works for you. Well, in this BOD, I give everything away, and I just say, this is my opinion. Now, if it's helpful to you, these ideas are good for you. Great. If I give you seven ideas and you can use one. Hey, you're one ahead. It's free anyway. Ignore the others.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. And then, and then you just with this that you did. You could do a lot of this yourself, or is this something you had to bring a whole team in to do.
Marshall Goldsmith
No, they have all technology team. I know nothing about technology. So they have eight engineers working on this. I just work on the content.
Alan Fleischmann
And then you have a team that actually does the technology and the other stuff as well?
Marshall Goldsmith
Yeah, I say, I'm not an expert on the technology, but they got some brilliant people doing this.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, that's amazing. Has, has, when did you start doing the coaching in your life?
Marshall Goldsmith
When you, when the teaching of the coaching part you was, it was there a period where it was both, well, you know, the coaching, as I said, started largely by accident. And, you know,it's interesting about coaching. My friend Alan Mulally taught me a great lesson. He said, Look, your whole job as a coach is is you pick the right customers. Your process works. Pick the wrong customers. It doesn't, and don't. Make it about yourself, your own ego and how smart you think you are. Make it about them. I ranked number one coach in the world for years. Nobody knows I'm a good coach or not. I can tell you I may or may not be the number one coach. I'm probably not. On the other hand, I can say one thing with certainty, I may not be the number one coach, but I got the number one customers, and you work with the great people I work with. Guess what? You're going you're going to look good, exactly right? And you get to pick and choose who you want to work with. So you go all in. That's right. You know, I don't if they got a bad attitude. Bye. Bye. That's right. I think that's the trick in life. Is have a journey and career where you can, you can choose who you want to be, put everything you got into it, because I don't think you have a half gear either. I think we do it either all in No, it never happened. Alan told me that. He said, you have one challenge. Work with great people. You win. Work with people don't care it is a waste of your time.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, changed my life, by the way. That's a wonderful way of discerning and also valuing yourself, evaluating that your contribution, so that they really have real impact. Exactly, gonna be that person that's gonna be all in with you as you'll be all in with them. You're not gonna, you'll be wasting so much of your valuable time. Yeah, I love that.
Any early folks that you worked with that that you know, maybe they're not in the arena today, but they were people that you admired, and they have their impact. Still has a ripple effect. Oh, yeah, one of the greatest person I ever worked with, a woman named Frances hesselbein.
Marshall Goldsmith
Uh, Francis was an CEO of the Girl Scouts, and, you know, won the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Peter Drucker said the greatest leaders ever met. And for for me, she is just a role model. Picture is up on the wall here.
Alan Fleischmann
You know, she's a role model to me and and just unbelievably good leader and just a good human being.
Yeah, she amazing, by the way, Alan, Alan malali loved her. Wow, it's always nice when you people were inspired by people that you also were connected to. Obviously, that there's probably connectivity there too, for you or from you everyone. Raj knows her Uber Jolie knows everyone loved her. She's just a, just an amazing, wonderful human. I'll tell you one story about her when I told the story is, I'm a volunteer for the Girl Scouts when she was the CEO. So she wants me to give this talk. So she says, Can you give this talk? I said, I'm booked every day. I said, Saturday. She said, You work Saturday. We work Saturday. I said, Francis, I'm embarrassed to say I'm in a different city every day and I gotta get my laundry done. As you want to get my laundry done. She says, not a problem. We have facilities. I said, What do I do? She said, Put your dirty laundry in a pile on the floor. I'll have some pick it up, get it cleaned. It'll be done. The next morning I wake up these the head of the Girl Scouts in New York, LA, Chicago, all the big cities, very distinguished women I look up walking down the hall is Frances hessevan CEO, carrying my dirty laundry, dirty socks, dirty underwear. She's carrying it every woman saw her. She didn't have to give a speech. No, she didn't have to talk about servant leadership or about the real deal. Humility and confidence and humility is an irresistible combination. Uh, she's just an amazing person, yeah, so there's someone that stays with you every day. Yeah? Pictures here on the wall, wow, kind of inspire you every day as well.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, well, that was, that's beautiful.
When did you start writing books?
Marshall Goldsmith
I started. The first book I ever did was an edited book called The leader of the future. And that book was very popular. It sold about half a million copies. The names on the cover were Peter Drucker, Francis hesselman, Richard Beckham Marshall, Goldsmith, I can guarantee you, compared to these people, I was nobody. I was unknown, compared to these people. But that was my first book, and and we did six books together. After doing six books with them, guess what? I'm kind of one of them. Yeah, he became the writer.
Alan Fleischmann
And did you always love to write?
Marshall Goldsmith
Well, let me make a slight correction. I'm a thinker.
Alan Fleischmann
Interesting.
Marshall Goldsmith
Yeah, I've done four New York Times bestsellers. Of those four, how many did I write? The answer would be a zero. I didn't write any of them. My books are all written by a fellow whose name is on the book. It's called Mark Reiter, he writes the books. He's my partner. I talked to him today. I love the guy. I have the ideas. He's my agent. He's my author. He writes the book and he here's the irony, he can write a book that sounds like me talking far better than I can write a book that sounds like me talking.
Alan Fleischmann
Wow, I love that. How you how many books you've written together? How many books have you worked on together? Oh, we've done four, and they're all New York Times bestsellers. We did what got you here, won't you there? We did Triggers. We did the Earned Life and we did Mojo. We did all four, four out of four New York Times bestsellers. So the 4 million books I've sold, I probably sold 3 million with him.
Alan Fleischmann
Wow, that's very cool. I love, I love that you've got these long standing partnerships that go on you. There's a consistency once you're connected
Marshall Goldsmith
And it's like, Sure, the same journey and becomes part I talked to him today on the phone. I met him in 2002 so it was 23 years ago. Talked to Alan today. I don't even remember when I met him, probably 30-35, years ago. So we're still buddies. You know, after all these years, what I love about your books, too, when you go back and read them, is they, they're evergreen in so many ways. You get to these things that the qualities of leadership and the, you know, even what you described from you just had coming from, you know, the kind of the Buddhist tendency of what makes things important, the impermanence of things.
Alan Fleischmann
I'm curious, like, would you purposely write in a way that you know that it's going to be good for perpetuity, or you just happen to be focused on things that stand with the other well, the books you mentioned are evergreen books, because those are about basic life.
Marshall Goldsmith
The first book I edited is called the leader of the future. I can guarantee you one of the breakthroughs that talks about some new technology. Which is going to change the world. You know what it was called emails.
Alan Fleischmann
If you read that book today, you go, what is this about?
Marshall Goldsmith
Yeah, that's true, but there are things in there that we can discern and kind of pull out that will be applicable today in this age of another generation or new generation. Actually, it was a good book, and emails are a big deal. Yeah, but, you know, it sounds strange today to read a book about this breakthrough, new thing that's coming called an email. Yeah, you actually wrote a book called succession. Are you ready? I like that book. Yeah, that's a very small book. I use that book a lot. We've been very successful in our lives. We've worked with, you know, CEO transitions in particular, and the way you describe you know, knowing when to why I said, Knowing when to to take a step back, but also knowing how to do it. You know, there's an elegance of doing it for both sides, right, for the person who's actually moving onward and the person who's moving, I wouldn't say, upward, but certainly the person who's transitioning to that position, there's an elegance of both sides.
And I can tell you one thing, I totally agree with you. It's not a no brainer. Yeah, many CEOs, we don't have to mention names, have problems letting go, yeah? And they just can't let go. And the book talks about succession. Are you ready? The title confused some people. They think, are you ready to be a CEO? That's all. It's about succession. Are you ready as a CEO to let go? That's what the book is about. And you know, some do it well, some don't. It's hard. One of the guys that was my coaching guy was Mike Duke. Mike was still Walmart, and I do these programs at my house with retiring CEOs. And, you know, Mike had a great story. He said, When I was CEO Walmart, you know, CEO Walmart, I be in groups. I tell this little joke, everybody laugh. It's a clean joke, and I love my joke. Then he said, you know, after I retired, I'm in this group. I tell a joke. He said, Nobody left.
Then I met another group. I tell a joke, nobody laughs. Probably said, my wife goes Mike, you idiot. Did you really think that stupid joke was funny when he was CEO of the Walmart? Oh, that joke was hilarious. Oh, everyone laughing. Not the CEO of Walmart. Not so funny anymore. It's hard because you're surrounded as a CEO of these huge companies with people who kiss your butt, laugh at your jokes and pretend you're smart all the time. The role that you and I play in our lives so often is to tell people they don't always want to hear or they do want to hear because they don't, because they feel like it's such a lonely moment. And they're getting a lot of people telling how smart, handsome, beautiful and charming they are, and they need people to say, Okay, where am I vulnerable? Where am I? No, my clients will tell you that. I'm sure you talk to some of them, I'm more than happy to tell none of them we're gonna say, I sugar coat things. You're not missing any words there. None of them are gonna say that. The new CEO Walmart is Doug McMillon. And when Mike was CEO, I gave Doug feedback. You know what he said? My feedback session. Marshall Goldsmith and may going to the dentist to get a root canal feel like a happy moment in my life. It’s just brutal.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, that's so funny. I love, I love that. Tell us a little bit of the of the one of the themes that you have in a lot of your books is behavioral change.
Marshall Goldmsith
Yes, a lot of people will say, Oh, I am who I am and I'm I that kind of what you get is what you get here, you know? And that's such a wrong way. First of all, people don't realize how quick life goes by, and they don't realize you only have one life to live. Why would you want to continue to grow and learn and challenge yourself? And you know, I love to see people who can adapt. You know, they see, they see a flaw, and they say, You know what? I can work on this. And now, quickly, some people can, but behavioral change is a reoccurring theme in your work, especially in triggers. What do you believe is the hardest part of changing behavior, and why is it so important for people to actually understand that they can't some leaders are they're leaders because they change and adapt. And the higher up you go, in many ways, the harder it is to change, because what happens is, any human or animal will replicate behavior that's followed by positive reinforcement, and the more successful we become back to triggers that talks about the environment, the more positive reinforcement we get. So we actually start believing that we're smart and our eyes are ideas are clever, and we ain't say you're successful because of you're also successful in spite of and it's hard when you get up. Nobody tells you the wrong side of the story, nobody tells you the dark side, and it gets harder and harder every time you get promotion to change. That's why that I like giving people confidential feedback. And also that's why my clients all talk to each other. You know, they help each other, like Raj and Alan and Jim Kim and he was president World Bank. You know, everybody Helps each other, and that it's grounding, because it gets rid of a lot of that ego stuff.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that, and I think it actually guarantees humility. We're all students of life, and it also creates a culture of humility, which is so important.
Marshall Goldsmith
Yeah, that's right. Well, you know one thing, the world has changed, one thing I'm proud of I'm 75 I'm doing my own personal AI computer bot right now. You just heard it talking, right? Yeah, 100% How cool is that? That's the question. You're not afraid of AI. It sounds like AI. And you're, you're, you're leaning in rather than worrying about it. Are you worried too? Totally. Well, I like it. Some young guy says to me, well, old man, do you know anything about this artificial intelligence thing this AI go, Well, no, I really don't know much, but let me ask my little friend, perhaps he can answer it in my voice, no less, yeah, in multiple languages too. Exactly, exactly.
Alan Fleischmann
That's very cool. Though, your book coaching for leadership is a cornerstone in the field of leadership development. It's like a Bible. You bring together insights from some of your most respected voices you've coached and people that you've been involved in. What inspired you create this collaborative work. And how do you think the book has influenced the way organizations approach leadership today.
Marshall Goldsmith
I mean, I mean leadership coaching. I would argue you are, you are one of the greatest influencers in that space. Well, one thing I'm proud of, and I've got to give my clients credit for this as well, the idea of coaching originally, when I started doing this, there was nothing called coaching at all. So there was no field of coaching, right? There was no, there was no term executive coach. So I started doing this. It was all new. Well, the original idea of coaching was, it was fix the loser. You know, you're a loser. You got a problem to get a coach. Alan Mulally helped me change that whole model to help the winner. I'm not in the fix the loser business. I'm going to help the winner business, and to me, I'm so proud of changing the way coaching is viewed. All those people you've interviewed on your show who I've coached, they're not losers, they're winners, they're winners. And they'll tell you, somebody say, Well, why do these people need a coach? They're already great. How many of the top 10 tennis players have a coach? 10? Yeah. Why do they have a coach? Because they want to get to get better.
Alan Fleischmann
That's right. And working, you know, tirelessly to make them be better.
Marshall Goldsmith
You know, often, as I said to people, you know, the people don't always realize that the person on the top is struggling with some major decisions to make. They know they're vulnerable. And you know, it confidence is an exercise. It's a muscle as well. Well, in my book, The Earned life, I talk about a process called the LPR life plan review process. My friend Mark Thompson and I spent 600 hours over COVID with 60 remarkable people. And you know, Dr Raj was in that group, Robert Jolie was in that group, some amazing people, and they talked about their life every weekend over COVID. We did that for for a couple of years. And you know what you learn is, look, we're all just humans here. There's no There's no gods out there. We're all humans. We can all learn from each other. And every weekend, people are just trying to get better. And so I think it's just wonderful to be around other great people and realize, look, we're all humans. Let's just help each other here. It's not a contest.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. And you work with other coaches, you know, that's been an amazing thing the 100 coaches.
Marshall Goldsmith
What happened is there was another woman, by the way, ironically, who I talked to on the phone today, named Aisha burcel. I say I went to a program for us called design the life you love. This program also changed my life. She asked me in the program, who are your heroes the program at Stanford? No, it's also similar to what it's Sanford or not, the same, different, different. She said, Who are your heroes? So said, My heroes are very kind and generous people who are nice teachers. I mentioned them, Peter Drucker, Paul, Hersey, Alan Francis. She said, You should be more like your heroes. I decided to give away everything I know to 15 people for free, and the only price is when they got old, they had to do the same thing. So I make a little video and put on LinkedIn, I'm thinking, you know, 100 people would apply, and I'll adopt 15. In this case, I was a little bit incorrect. So far, 18,000 people applied adopted. So now I've adopted about 400 people. And you know, Marcus Collins, he's been, he's been on your show, and Uber. And Ashish Avani is one of my 100 coaches. He's been on your show. So you've met a bunch of the people the I'm their honorary father, so I teach them all I know for free, and the only price is they get old. They gotta do the same thing.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. And do have you ever bring your it's not.
Do you? Do you bring your different clients together as well?
Marshall Goldsmith
Oh yeah. They learn from each other. Though they learn look, they learn more from each other than they learn from me. Most of my clients, what they learn? I'm a small contributor process. I'm a facilitator as a coach. Alan Mulally, in the same way said, I'm a facilitator as a leader. He and I are very similar. I'm a facilitator as a coach. I help my clients, learn from everyone around them.
Alan Fleischmann
I love this actually, too, which is great.
Tell us a little bit about any struggles along the way where you know anything, any great frustrations about monumental moments where you needed to change the way you coached, like you realize I can summarize it quite simply.
Marshall Goldsmith
Every time I've coached someone and there was a problem at all, I hadn't I finally realized I found the solution exactly in the same place. I found out the identification of the problem exactly the same place. I had to look one place. You know, that place was look in the mirror. And you know, if I've had a problem, whose fault it was this guy right here, my own ego thinking I'm a big deal, getting caught up on my own press. Yeah, any problems I've had, pretty much in life, I can, I can basically attribute to one person that would be me. And how do you keep yourself in check? I have someone call me every day to try to help me. Is that true? Oh, yeah. Now people say, Do I have a coach? Ask you that I've had someone talk to me almost daily for 27 years to help me. I mean, one of the things I teach is called the daily question process. I've been doing it for 27 years. It's hard to do. You know? Why do I have someone called me? Somebody said, Don't I know the theory about how to change I wrote the theory. Why do I have someone call me every day? My name is Marshall Goldsmith. I'm too cowardly and non disciplined doing this stuff. I teach by myself. I need help. And you know what? It's okay. I need help. You think I'm better than Uber or Alan or Ashish or I'm better than these people. I'm not better than these people. These people are wonderful people. I need help too. I'm no better than them.
Alan Fleischmann
I love this. And then tell us a little bit about any public breakthroughs that you could share. A little bit you know you're of all the books you know that you've written, is there one that actually encapsulates your personal philosophy more than others, more and more memoir like.
Marshall Goldsmith
Yeah, I'd say there's few. Like the book you mentioned is a great book, but a very narrow audience. That book is for very high level people you've been working with. It's not really a book for the average person. I'd say, What Got You Here Won't Get You There. Is a really good book about the basics of what I do. And then my new book, The Earned life, is a really good book about life, and let's say, also triggers. I'd recommend those three the most highly triggers the earned life. And what got you here won't get you there.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. I love that. That's very cool. And then the is there any memoir type of Have you written a memoir? Any what a memoir type book?
Marshall Goldsmith
Well, you know, I am working on a new book now. Yeah, my new my new book now is called A Little Better Life. And my new book is going to talk a little bit about my history, but also kind of a philosophical change I've had.
So my for example, LinkedIn on LinkedIn, and I always make little quotes, sometimes two or three times a day. And when I was younger, I would have thought that's childish and silly. Nobody's going to change your behavior. Come stupid quote, right? But I've changed. You know what? I realize maybe a person doesn't have a better life, maybe it doesn't transform their life, but you know what, maybe they have a better day, maybe they're a better minute. And, you know, I got 1.5 million followers. That's a lot of minutes out there. So as I've grown older, I just try to help people have a little better life. Let's take this our session together here, yeah, if anybody listening to this program has a little better life based on what happens here, it's a good use of my time.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, that's right. And we hope that many people can be inspired by you, which they will be. Let me just write that down, right? The little things here, I'm taking notes as I'm I'm loving this moments with you too, your feed forward and stakeholder centered coaching. And we don't. I love that, the idea of really know your stakeholders. These methods have gained widespread, widespread acclaim, I mean, people refer to them all the time. Can you see what these approaches are for our listeners? How you develop them, how you our listeners can integrate them in their daily lives. Talking about what you just said a minute ago, people can walk away. Some real tools here.
Marshall Goldsmith
Well, feed forward is one I recommend to anybody. By the way, if you need any writing for me, send me an email. Marshall@Marshallgoldsmith.com, Marshall Goldsmith.DotAI, I give everything away anyway. So it's all I I've got the world's best intellectual property system. You can't steal any of my intellectual property. It's impossible to steal it because it's free.
You can't steal what's right, give it all away anyway. So back to feed forward. I love feed forward. Now anybody can practice feed forward. It's very positive, upbeat. People love it and it works. Don't instead of asking for feedback about the past, for example, Uber Jolie, poster boy, feed forward, he gets up and says, I'm the new CEO. Best Boy, Best Buy. I need you more than you need me. I have a coach. I'm trying to get better. Here's what I'm trying to get better at. Please give me ideas to help me. He asked everybody that publicly. Then he says, There's one thing I'd like you to do the same thing. Look, we all got something to do better. Get in the habit of asking, How can I be a better? Listen and say thank you and feed forward. You don't judge, you don't critique, you don't have to do everything. Just listen and say thank you. Buddha said, only do what I teach if it works for you. That work for you, don't do it. It's fine. Well, feed forward, you get ideas. You say, thank you. My clients do that. I give them ideas. They say, thank you. I give them a great I tell them, if I give you a great idea, I want you to say thank you. I give you a stupid idea, I want to say thank you. Anyway, you don't have to do it. So feed forward is based on the whole premise of learn to ask for input. Listen, thank people. Don't promise to do everything. And say thank you, by the way, how can I be a better husband? How can I be a better wife? How can I be a better partner? How can I be a better father, mother, son, daughter. This is something we don't do enough of in life, of asking.
Alan Fleischmann
The idea of gratitude seems to be a real central part of you know, to have confidence, you need to have those tenets of gratitude and humility. In other words, art's called arrogance, I think, and ignorance, because you're not, you're not listening to others, and you're not actually understanding who you're talking to or working with.
Marshall Goldsmith
Well, you know, and to me, it's an ultimate compliment to someone that say, look, I want to get better. Please help me. Yeah, some leaders are afraid to do that. Well, you know, I've got research. I've got a research study called leadership as a contact sport. You want a copy of it, send me an email, Marshall at Marshall smith.com or you can look it up. But it's pretty clear, if leaders do this stuff, they are seen as getting better, not by themselves, but by everyone around them.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that.
Marshall Goldsmith
And you know what you're reaching a lot of your books is not those, the people that you deal with at the board level or at the C suite level, the CEOs. You're also really trying to reach the people at the at the kitchen table as well. My stuff applies to everybody.
Alan Fleischmann
And how do you describe leaders and leadership, because I always tell people, I always I always talk about it's not just the number ones out there that you see that are out there. There's lots and lots of ways to lead, and leading sometimes is to support others and to make sure that we're getting the outcomes. I'm curious my leadership.
Marshall Goldsmith
Well, I mean to me, when I'm asked, number one, I never argue about a definition. My old mentor said, Never argue about definitions. Many words can be defined in many different ways. Don't pretend yours is the best. I use his definition. Leadership is working with and through others to achieve objectives. And the key word is others. You see, for the great achiever, it could be all about me. For the great leader, it's all about them. To me, that's a difference between a leader and an achiever. You can be a great achiever without being a leader. You can sit there and write something on your own or draw a painting. You don't have to be a great leader that way. On the other hand, for a leader different than an achiever, it's not about you. It's not about how smart you are, how clever you are, that you're the greatest person in the world. It's really about them. They're the people that do the work, and they're the ones that need to carry the ball. You're there to help them.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that too. And so it's really about people finding them their own leadership within themselves, that it's not a title, it's it, yeah, that's right. And if you look at a person like Francis elbain or Alan, who I just talked to today, it's basically the way they are as people. That's the way they live.
Marshall Goldsmith
You know, we had another topic very interesting today when I talked about Alan, or talk with Alan about authenticity. I think authenticity is word is grossly misused today. And what we talked about is professional authenticity. Professional authenticity means you show up, you do your job, you are authentically professional. You're an honest person. But it doesn't mean you sit there and complain about everything, and it doesn't mean you sit there and talk about how stupid everybody else is. That's unprofessional. So I think, you know, in the New World, sometimes people confuse the term authenticity with disclosure, and therefore, if I think my boss is an ass, I should just go tell the entire world that, as opposed to acting like a professional, if you look at a person like Alan Uber Francis, you.
Alan Fleischmann
Very authentic people, but also very professional people. There's an elegance result. There's a level of character here. Good character, quality, good seems to be a profound part of this as well.
Marshall Goldsmith
Well, you're making a very important point for me and for coaching, there are people that achieve huge success that are not inherently good people or good leaders. For example, one of the worst CEOs I ever met was on all kinds of magazines and stuff as being this hero. He was a CEO of a drug company. They got lucky. They came up with a couple of products. Had a blockbuster company, made a fortune. He was a terrible CEO, unethical sex with his secretary, doing bad things with board members, an awful person, but he was held up as some hero because the company made numbers. Well, you know, to me, I wouldn't coach that guy. I wouldn't coach that. I don't care how much money he made, because I don't want to reinforce what he's doing. What are the qualities that you would say, we, you must actually be able at this point spot a leader. You know, you know where, where someone actually with the right coaching, the right the right support, can actually build, build their authenticity, their genuine voice. Three things that are critical for everyone. I coach, courage, humility and discipline. You have to have the courage to look in the mirror. And I can tell you, it's not easy. It takes courage to do that, to get feedback, to admit you have problems, to publicly talk about wanting to improve. That takes courage. It takes humility. You know what I've learned as a coach? I cannot help perfect people get better. If somebody's perfect, there's nothing I want to do about it, right? Well, they don't need me. You need humility and you need discipline to do the day to day follow up. You know, the whole thing about feed forward is you have to do it over and over again. You don't do it once you get in a habit of doing it on a regular basis every couple of months. Hey, I want to be more effective. Give me ideas. Give me ideas. Give me ideas. You keep following up, and then you get better. If you look at Alan's coach, Allen's leadership process, Alan Mulally the business plan review, people don't get better because he gives motivational speeches. They gotta do the hard work.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. I love that Alan is someone that featured we must be reading his book as well as he wrote a pretty amazing book as well. Yeah, well, he wrote, There was a book about him that I really liked, too, American icon. It's about how he turned around Ford. That is a great, a great, great book. If you had like, if you spent a few minutes with us just to share a little bit about kind of takeaways that you know, things that you, along the way, would want people at all levels, in their in their careers, you'd want them to actually hold on to and then are there certain techniques that you'd be willing to share a little bit, you know, that you would say, you know, just to ask yourself the questions. I think part of the humility is asking questions and not always knowing the answers, right as well. To people want to hear a little bit of like, you know, there's some here that are, that are listeners, who are CEOs. There's some in the C suite, or people who work with CEOs, who support them. And then there are people who have no aspiration to be a CEO, but understand that their role makes things happen, but not necessarily.
Our team submitted a nomination for Karen Karniol-Tambour of Bridgewater Associates, however the website very briefly froze at the end when we clicked the submit button. I just wanted to double check with you to see if the nomination was received before we try to re-submit.
Marshall Goldsmith
You know, what are the questions they need to ask themselves? I'd love to hear a little bit about those thoughts. Well, the first thing I recommend is get confidential feedback. I'm a big believer in confidential feedback. The reality is, look, this whole idea of let's critique people and power is a nice theory, but that doesn't happen. Our ancestors did that. All got killed. We have a large cultural history of not wanting to do that, and I love the idea of getting confidential feedback. Number one. Number two, when I work with people, you agree what you want to get better. It's got to come from your heart. I can't make people change. I can't make Well, look at the people I coach. What I'm supposed to do, beat them up, kill them. I can't make them do what they don't want. I can help them do what they do want, but it's got to come from them. They got to be motivated. So, you know, what is it? And then when I work with somebody, let's say they're the future CEO, they and the CEO both have to agree that this is the right thing and it's important. And then who are the key stakeholders? And they get them all involved, and this is something we can do with their life. I mean, if you look at, you know, you can do this for kids. As I said, How can I be a better dad? You know, I had a great story. One woman, right class I teach people to do this for her parents. She called her mother and said, What can I do to be a better daughter?
Her mother said, well, dad's dead. I live alone in the country, and every day I walk to the mailbox to get the mail, and almost every day there's nothing in the mail that makes me lonely. She said it would mean so much to me if you just send me a little picture card or something. So I walked a mail every day I'd find something. She started sending her mother little pictures and cards every day. What did that cost her? Nothing. What'd that mean to her mother? Everything she sent me an email three years later and said, My mother just died. The last thing her mother told her was thank you for doing that.
Well, if your parents are alive, it's a great thing to do with them. Ask them, how can I be a better son or daughter? And even if they tell you, you're perfect, they'll be proud you ask, and it's good to do for them. It's good to do for you. What's the number one regret kids have or mom and dad? I why not? Thank them for everything they did to help me. And if you have kids, it's great for your kids. How do you want your kids to treat you? Well, let them watch how you treat your parents.
Alan Fleischmann
That's right. Want your kids to be good to you. How do you treat your parents? And you think there's a connection between how people lead at home and communicate at home with how they do in the workplace too.
Marshall Goldsmith
Yes. Just humans, right? Yeah. Now, one of the guys in my book is Dave Chang. You know, Dave Chang is a famous chef, that's right, the one thing with Dave I worked on is just him being happier. And, you know, I made I say good progress, yet, not great progress, but I finally said one thing that really broke through to Dave. Dave loves his kids. He has two little kids. I said, Dave, do you want your kids to be happy? He said, nothing more than I want that I want my kids to be happy. I said, Do you believe in leadership by example? He said, Of course I do. I said, you want your kids to be happy, Dave, you go first. Let them watch you be happy. For some reason that just boom, it really hit him. He said, You're right. You're right.
Alan Fleischmann
What's really powerful and that also, I don't think we do enough of you know, with all the big challenges of leading, you know, leading implies you're getting engaged in the world.
Marshall Goldsmith
The world can be a pretty dismal place, and it could be quite a challenging environment. There's a lot to be concerned about, worried about, but to lead, well, there has to be a level of levity and joy. There has to be a couple of, you know, energy and passion and purpose and enthusiasm, and what you're saying here is it's when, when was the world face? When was the world not a challenging place? When was this happy era, right? Yeah, yeah. You want to go back in history, when you want to go back to, how about the cave people? You think we got challenges? Oh, we don't make challenges at all. How about the people built a pyramid? You know? Yeah, you think we got challenges? Oh, not so much.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah. I love that. I love that, in other words, but, but it's important when you when you coach your your clients, your friends and your colleagues and your neighbors and your family, even, are you coaching them to bring joy into their life. I didn't hear you have joy, to bring that sense of joy. Well, it is. And to me, that's the early life book I talk about what's important in life. And I said, number one, take care of your health. Number two, have great relationship with people you love about you met Dr Bob waldinger, by the way, from Harvard. I know he is absolutely you should get him on your shelf. You love you connect us. I would do that. I'm happy to recommend him. You will love him. He's such a good guy. So the you know, have great relationship with people. That's what he talks about. Take care of your health, and then you need, like, middle class or lower middle class level of money beyond that, money's not gonna make any happier anyway, if you got all that, what do you need? You need three things. One, you need a higher purpose. Why am I doing this? People work hard. Yeah. What am I doing this for? You gotta have some higher reason. Doesn't have to be religious, but has to be something. Two, you need to achieve. People I meet, you know, they're achievers. They can't stop achieving. And then three, you need to love what you do. So I mean, look at me.
I mean, I don't have to talk to you right now. You know what I could be doing. I could be playing crappy golf with old men at the country club and eating chicken sandwiches while discussing gallbladder surgery. Well, I'd rather talk to you.
Alan Fleischmann
I'm very grateful that you made that decision, but you're right. I mean, and even when you talk about succession or knowing when it's okay to just to stop doing certain things, you're not saying, be idle.
Marshall Goldsmith
Oh no, you gotta do something. Oh, look, I've been this with so many CEOs, I can tell you, if they don't have anything to do, they drive themselves and everyone around them crazy. Yeah, one got to two stories. One guy said he's in the kitchen and alphabetizing the cans, and he goes to his wife. He said, baked beans. Should that be? Ba for be for being his wife. Says, Get out.
Another guy, he said, I walked down the stairs, and his wife was here, and she says, time to go to office. He said, I do not have an office. I'm retired. She goes, Oh, you got an office now. Now here's the keys to your nice new office, and here's where it is. And now you're going to go your nice new office, see your nice new secretary. He said, Well, what am I going to do? She said, I don't care, but you're not going to do it in this house, because I'm sick of you. And she said, Now I'll see at five. And then she goes, Six. In other words, you're driving me nuts. Get out.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. I love that. So if you the last couple minutes, we've got left, I knew this was gonna be too short of an hour. We're gonna need to have you back on Marshall. What would be the you know, knowing where we are in the world right now, knowing how important leaders are, from public life, certainly, but most importantly from private sector and civil society. Well, probably more than ever, we need to see leaders that are stepping up. What would be your your a couple of things you'd want to advise them to do and know this to be the highest priority. I'd like my final advice to be not just for leaders, but for everybody, are we ready? The best coaching you're going to get, take a deep breath.
Marshall Goldsmith
Ah, imagine you're 95 years old. You're just getting ready to die, but right before you take the last breath or give it a beautiful gift, the ability to go back in time and talk to the person that's listening to me right now. You're that old man waiting to die, that old woman waiting to die. You get to go back in time. What advice would that old person have for you?
Well, whatever you're thinking now, do that terms performance appraisals. That's the only ones going to matter. That old person says you did the right thing, you did. Person says you made a mistake you did. You have to impress anybody else. Some friends of mine interviewed old folks who are dying to ask that question, what advice would you have? Number one, be happy now. Not next week, not next month. Be happy now. Two, friends and family don't get so busy climbing the corporate ladders. Forget the people who love you. And then three, go for it. You got a dream. Go for it. Business advice is much different. Life is short. Enjoy what you do if you don't enjoy what you do. Get to work and find something else to do. Get out of there. Don't Don't ruin your life. Number two, at work, do whatever you can to help people. The main reason help people is nothing with money or status or getting ahead. Main reason tell people, as an old man is going to be proud of you, that old woman's going to be proud of you because you did. And the final and the final advice is, go for it. You know, the world's changing. Your company's changing. Do which things right may not win. At least you tried. Old people, we seldom regret the risks we take and fail. We usually regret the risk we fail to take. And finally, my mission is pretty simple. Just try to help people have a little better life. If I do that, I'm declaring victory here.
Alan Fleischmann
There's there's a wonderful quote which I love from Maya Angelou, and it says, my mission in life is not merely to survive, but to thrive and to do so with some passion, some compassion, some humor and some style. You are the epitome of that to me, Marshall, you are someone who brings originality, you bring purpose, you bring passion, you bring compassion, you care, but you also do with an extraordinary amount of humility. It's really amazing. Thank you so much.
Marshall Goldsmith
Thank you for inviting me.