Oscar Munoz
Executive Chairman of United Airlines
“I guarantee that they're all telling this story – regardless of whether they mention the person or not – they know the experience that somebody came out of nowhere to help them. I don't care who you are and how distanced you get yourself from your roots, you're always going to remember that. And inevitably, you're going to come back around, and you're going to understand: you know what, I have the ability to help someone and I'm going to do that. So those are wonderful things you leave as a legacy.”
Summary
In this episode of Leadership Matters, Alan and his good friend Oscar Munoz discuss what makes someone a successful leader, including pushing through hardship and lending a helping hand.
They discuss the importance of perseverance to leadership; a topic Oscar is quite familiar with. Oscar was born in Mexico and raised by his grandmother. When he came to America he was forced to quickly assimilate and learn English, while moving from family to family with his grandmother, without any house to call their own.
Oscar watched his grandma work until the age of 86 through a horrible arthritic condition, never complaining. Oscar took these childhood lessons into his career, where he became the first Latino to run a major US airline. After suffering a major heart attack followed by a heart transplant just 37 days into his role as CEO of United, Oscar used his skills in perseverance to return to the job just weeks later.
He and Alan discuss the importance of mentorship, and Oscar tells the story of how he was encouraged to go to college by his high school counselor who even offered him financial help throughout the process. Oscar now uses his leadership position to help others, with hope that they will one day offer help to others as well.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
100 Most Influential Hispanics in the United States is a list by Hispanic Business Magazine.
The University of Southern California is one of the world's leading private research universities, located in the heart of Los Angeles.
Guest Bio
Oscar Munoz is the Executive Chairman of United Airlines, where he served as CEO from 2015 to 2020.
Prior to his role at United Airlines, Munoz served on the board of parent company United Continental Holdings (UCH) and held multiple executive positions at CSX Corporation and AT&T.
Munoz was born in 1959, the eldest of ten children in a Mexican-American family from Southern California. He was the first in his family to graduate from college, earning a BS in business from the University of Southern California, and an MBA from Pepperdine University.
Follow Oscar on Instagram.
Clips from this Episode
Episode Transcription
Alan Fleischmann
You're listening to Leadership Matters on SiriusXM. My guest today is a leader who has built a legacy as an executive, a communicator, and as an agent of change across a wide variety of industries. Oscar Munoz recently served as CEO of United Airlines, and just concluded his tenure as the company's Executive Chairman in May. Just 37 days after taking the helm as CEO of United in 2015, Oscar – a vegan triathlete – suffered a major heart attack, followed by a heart transplant. Incredibly, he not only survived this ordeal, but he was back on the job just weeks later. His tenure marked a transformational period for the company, guiding it from a crisis to a position of extraordinary growth. Born into a Mexican immigrant family, Oscar is the first Latino to run a major US airline, and Hispanic Business Magazine twice named him one of the 100 Most Influential Hispanics in the United States. Prior to leading United, he served as President and Chief Operating Officer of rail giant CSS Corp, and has previous tours of duty in telecoms, such as AT&T and US West. Oscar has significant insight into infrastructure, whether it be railways, runways, or bandwidth, and he has a fascinating insider perspective of what it's like to navigate a pandemic and what should come next for the world economy. He's a thought leader, a leader in his own right, and a great humanitarian. Oscar, thank you for joining me today and welcome to Leadership Matters.
Oscar Munoz
Thanks, Alan, that was very wonderfully said. Thank you.
Alan Fleischmann
Well, you're an extraordinary guy. I know that this is an interview that I've been looking forward to. I'm a Global Services member and United Airlines devotee, and I would say a big reason why I am and have been is because of you. So, I get to see you when I get on an airplane, and until the pandemic happened, I was on them often, so I got to see you, but on videos. So, I'm glad to have you on audio with me today as we talk, and to share this with our listeners.
Oscar Munoz
I look forward to having all your listeners back on aircraft that can travel back to an international day for business or for leisure. I've been traveling a lot recently and just the scale of people, respectively, measuring against the last period of time – it's amazing how many people are out there. But it is mostly major travel at this point in time. Everyone expresses the same, I think, viewpoint. And importantly, I think most people generally are a little bit more chill when they travel so it's a bit more pleasant. And I hope some of that continues for a bit of time. I know we'll get back to the normal sort of rat race and entitled nature that we all feel sometimes, but at the same time, it's been fun to watch people get back into wanting to travel.
Alan Fleischmann
I think that's right, people want to travel again. I'm sure there's a certain amount of this feeling of "pinch me we're back on the road again," kind of thing for many people right now, families and professionals who are traveling for work or on vacation. Let's go back to the early years of Oscar Munoz for a moment. Turning to that beginning – you have told the story of being raised in Mexico by your maternal grandmother, often struggling to make ends meet. What is the origin story of your family? How did you eventually come to the United States? And what did that experience teach you? It's a big question here.
Oscar Munoz
I mean, it's funny, because the fact that I was born in Mexico and raised for a time there with my grandmother is not something I advertise much in my career. I think from a regret perspective – I mean, I don't like to have regrets, because there's nothing you can do about it – not speaking about that earlier and providing the sense of what that meant to me, is – unless you're an immigrant, you don't understand. I came to the United States at a time when assimilation was critical. You didn't want to be different and it kind of forced you to not speak about those things. You just kind of went along to get along. I lost all a lot of my language skill in Spanish for a long period of time. So,it's not something that I like to do, but it was a meaningful and formative part of my life. My mom, my grandmother and I – my mom had come to the United States and began groundwork for a better life for her child. Then my grandmother and I just traveled all over. We didn't have a home of our own or a home of her own, so we went from family to family. I think I was being interviewed once and they were like "so you were in essence, homeless?" and kind of made it more dramatic. What you don't understand about Mexican families is you're never homeless. If you have family or relatives or people that you know, there's always an open door for you. And we went from all of these places – I remember vaguely buses and walking and sleeping on couches, but it never felt out of sorts and you never felt out of place. I guess, and to your question, eventually, America open opened its doors for me, and my grandmother is still one of my key factors in my life. She's deceased, but she was a woman that never in my entire life did I ever hear her complain. And you have to understand that from a perspective that for her occupation, she was a maid in a hotel in Las Vegas for a long period of time. She retired at the ripe age of 86. You had to know her in her post-years when she had developed such an arthritic condition that one of her legs and ankles actually fused together over time. But I never heard her once complain about it. In fact, when she retired, people from the corporate office of the hotel chain came to see her off, and the words that you almost hear posthumously about someone – I mean, people just loved her. She had this massive group of friends, she never missed a day of work, she always took care of other people's things. And so as I like to say, my worst day at the office was better than the best of my folks and grandparents and my grandmother. I've just always talked about being grateful and appreciative and always putting things into context, because she truly worked, she truly cared, and she truly gave her all for all of us. I never felt any other thing other than I was the most important part of her life. Those are the formative things that create a leadership style that I've tried to create from that point on. Of course, I failed miserably in that regard. But nevertheless, she was a wonderful influence in my life.
Alan Fleischmann
And did she lived with you in United States, when you moved to Southern California?
Oscar Munoz
Oh, she moved around from place to place. She did live with my mom and my dad and our family for a short period of time. But then she went off and went to work in Las Vegas hotel. So she worked, she lived by herself. And, you know, increasingly, I would take care of her a little bit. But now she had – I mean, it was amazing, the attraction of other people to her that she drew, there was never a time when she was alone in the workplace. That's what I think from a leadership perspective – I know it's trite – but if you're a good person, and you genuinely care about others, you attract a whole group of people that are always going to be there to support you. So many books get written about all this stuff, but there's an outfit, a company in Denver, Be Good to People, that I just naturally got acclimated and close with, because they run a kiosk at the Denver Airport, and somebody gave me something from them. I said, "this is really cool." So I walk over there, I met the owner, Chris, she's a wonderful person, and they're building this little brand. On the simplicity, I think about what my grandmother taught me, right? Be good to people. Such a stupid, simple concept. And I think we could all just learn from those things, right? It doesn't have to be complex and involved and take 10 books and week-long seminars and Tony Robbins stuff and all that sort of stuff. Just look at yourself, be good to others, and gosh, it's amazing how things can happen, personally and professionally. That's my view.
Alan Fleischmann
The power of nice. It's not a bad thing at all. The power of nice. It's kind of a great ripple effect. That's amazing. You were the first member of your family to attend college. Your dad was a blue collar guy. You're the oldest of nine brothers and sisters. Was that hard for you? Did your mom and dad say, "I want you to go to college?" Or was it one of those things where Oscar had to raise his hands and say, "Hey, folks, I'm going to college."
Oscar Munoz
You know, it's a perfect question because unfortunately, in those communities where you don't have the history of let's say, a college education or or any vehicle that takes you out of the norm that you're in, no, my mom and dad didn't know anything about that. I mean, I think the story for me was simply that I had a high school counselor, Mrs. Duckworth, who caught me in a hallway one day in between classes, so I thought I was in trouble, being late, and they had just taken the PSATs – everybody takes them. And she didn't know who I was, I didn't know she was, and she stopped me in the hallway and said, "Hey, you know, you're Oscar Munoz, I'm Mrs. Duckworth, but where are you thinking of going to college?" Honest to goodness, my answer was "What's a college?" I legitimately had no idea. Nobody my family knew of that opportunity. I think from that point forward is a whole long story about something I call 'duty to care', because this woman took me and frankly, others, under her wing, and helped me with the application process, actually wrote a couple checks for things and sort of helped me navigate through the process and showed me a way that I had never would have done. My parents would have never professed – I mean, my dad, when I went off to school, he gave me the keys to one of his old cars, and in a touching way, for a hard human that he was, he gave me a check for $148. And he said, mijo – that's Spanish for my son, it's a term of endearment – mijo I don't know where the hell you're going, but hopefully, this helps. A key to an old car and a $140 check. I was grateful because I didn't know where I was going, either. But that's how my journey started. And it's the foundation for what I continue to do today – to find people with capability, with desire, with opportunity, but they don't have the financial means, they don't have the direction. And it's a very powerful force in my life. And I call it duty to care.
Alan Fleischmann
It's an extraordinary example of the power of mentorship. But also, you can't imagine what you can have unless someone actually presents it to you. You need role models – you became that, which we're going to talk about – but it wasn't that you even went so far as to say you were rejecting or embracing a role model, you didn't even know what a college was. So it took a person who cared to kind of say, "No, you got to do this." And then not only say you got to do this, but she walked you through the process. She supported you through the process. And she took you through the process. That's how things happen. It's not just you know, "good luck." It's, "Let me let me take this journey with you." Pretty powerful.
Oscar Munoz
And again, back to the concept of leadership – so the duty to care part is, you can't forget that stuff. Right? That happened to me, and I'm so forever grateful. How do you in your own way, your own capabilities, your own wherewithal, help others? It doesn't just require money, sometimes it just requires you to just find somebody in the crowd that you see that kind of stands a little bit taller, find and nurture them. The world needs more – back to the power of nice, right? All of us as humans, regardless of who we are, regardless of what we've achieved, we all appreciate someone sitting you down, putting their arm around you, patting you on the back, pointing at you and saying, "Hey, you know what? Nice job. Way to do that." Right? It's a powerful motivating force, and we all need it.
Alan Fleischmann
Why did you go to college?
Oscar Munoz
I went to University of Southern California. Long story, I got actually accepted to quite a few schools – it was back in the day when, you know, it was easier I suspect – including some prominent universities back east, and I remember my dad and I visited one of those schools. I had a four year scholarship to this world that is, everyone knows is Harvard. And I went back there and it was the first time I was on a plane, first time I was in a taxi, first time I was in a hotel, and I'm carrying around my dad, the blue collar meat cutter with his jeans and his extendable key ring. And the event one of those evenings was a black tie optional. So you can just imagine – too, I was a surfer kid, my hair was down literally blow my shoulders, dyed red from surfing, and my formal attire was a longer pair of shorts and a pair of shoes versus flip flops and a long sleeve shirt. So we show up at this event. There are times in your life when you just realize that, "Hmm, maybe I'm a little different than others." And we walk up to this place and there's a little dais and people kind of guarding the door. And one woman, I remember her vividly saying "You must be lost." Let's see. Probably. But I gave her the invitation in a fairly flushed face, she goes, "Oh no, you're at the right place." Kind of checked us both out. And unfortunately we walked into this room somewhat late. And it was the people that have gotten a four year scholarship, so it was a fairly prominent group. And of course, my table isn't in the rear when I can just sit down. No, the damn table's right up at the front. We have to walk and navigate all of these folks. And it was one of the more awkward moments. My dad ordered – I remember specifically – ordered a Coors beer. Back in the day, Coors beer wasn't allowed east of the Mississippi. So the guy goes, "I don't know." And my dad make some remark like, well, "How can you not have Coors beer, what kind of place is this?" And even then I remember, like, "Yeah, that's probably not the right thing to say, right?" Yeah, it was one of those interesting moments. I won't go too much deeper into the evening.
Alan Fleischmann
Did you decide that you didn't want to go there because of that experience?
Oscar Munoz
It was the most awkward, uncomfortable experience ever, and it was kind of in the early summer. So I went back, I went back to Southern Cal. And, in fact, I ended up attending USC, and I knew a couple of folks and hung around with a couple of fraternity guys that I'd met over the summer surfing, and I remember being on the water one day when one of my high school buddies kind of paddles over and says "Hey, I thought you were going to college or something?" And I'm like, "Oh." And then I said, "Yeah, I should probably look into that." And I kind of went back and looked at all the documents and USC just started first. So I drove off, parked the car, went into the place, and I had a scholarship there, something called a Trustee Scholarship. I went to the office, and they kind of signed me up for school, and there I was. I know it sounds awful, but I'm so free in my post-career world where I can tell these stories because it doesn't sound very thoughtful and structured and organized and planned, or that I had this vision and I had these plans and you know, project management, Gantt chart, and tell me what – hell, I just happened into it. And, you know, it was a wonderful experience. I love that school. I'm on the board of trustees there, so it's a nice sort of circle. But that's how I got started. And what did you study when you were there? Was that hard to figure out? That's an amazing story. So my aptitude test showed things for the medical field. I had taken a lot of AP classes, so I went and I was going to be pre-med, like hey, a doctor, that sounds like a good thing. I know in my community, it was like, "Where's he going to college?" They didn't know what that was, then, "He's gonna go be a doctor," and they would all light up. So I was like, "Oh, okay, let's go do that." So I spent two full years in a pre-med program there and then, in my summer between my sophomore and junior year, I got a job at USC County Medical Center, which has been renamed along the way. But you have to know where it's positioned. It is literally between the barrio and watts. So, you want to talk about seeing all of the human frailties in life in one place? That was the place to see it. I've had a lot of bad moments in my life in retrospect, but you know, for me personally, being in that environment for literally three months – because you work almost 24/7, you never got to go anywhere – but I got to see everything. And it wasn't the blood and guts, which were plentiful. It was the state of human nature where I finally realized what people did to each other. I remember vividly in particular, given my heritage, a Mexican man drunk off his ass, wheeling in his wife, with a baby literally half out of her, I hate to be so dramatic. But just seeing that it's like, how do people do that? Right? And then, how do people do this to each other? Because you'd eventually have have the gang warfare after effects in there. And I remember this doctor, towards the end of my summer there one night, I see him just laying there – I haven't slept in days, he hasn't slept in days – and just in a kind sense, he looked at me and said, "You know, in order to make it as a practicing medical doctor in an environment like this, you have to make some sacrifices, and one of them is, you can't give a hoot about your patients, or or you'll go crazy. You have to stop and to some degree distance yourself." He didn't say not care, but "you have to distance yourself from the emotional connection that you seem to make with everyone." It's like, "you're a young man, but you have to think about that." And that really struck home because it's like, I am who I am. My heritage. My upbringing – it's all about caring for others, and the fact that I would have to disassociate myself with someone I was caring for, I can't even imagine how I would work. So I went back to school, I said, "Alright, what else can I do?" So, I decided to go to law school, but on the interim process, even then, I said, "Well, listen, I can probably catch up and get a business degree, because if nothing else, I'd have something tangible." So I graduated with a business degree with a full intent to go to law school – which is another story – but nevertheless, that's how the process was. God I sound like such a nut, right?
Alan Fleischmann
No, I think it's amazing because first of all, there's a consistency in everything you're saying, which is about the power of the EQ. Clearly you're obviously extraordinarily bright. You wouldn't have gotten all the eastern colleges and the western colleges seeking you out. But the fact that you figured out early on, you had a self-awareness that this power of nice or this power of being connected or understanding and being able to connect with your heritage but also with people as you went along, mattered to you early on. So the idea that you made a decision because you can't be indifferent – not to suggest the doctors are indifferent – but you weren't going to protect yourself from other people. You were going to connect with other people. It's a powerful realization, I would argue.
Oscar Munoz
To be perfectly transparent, it did affect me. I am sure I was clinically depressed. It was just every day, every moment, every visual – to this day, I mean I walk in – I've had to be in hospitals – but it still brings back some of those old memories and stuff. So, it worked out, so it's good to go.
Alan Fleischmann
Did you feel, Oscar, when you were in college, for example, that you were discriminated against at all? Did you feel that you were pathbreaking? Were there other Mexican Americans around you or Latinos around you, so you didn't feel like you had to represent all others? Or did you find that in certain circumstances, in many circumstances, you had to overcome certain things or ignore certain things or even challenge certain things in college?
Oscar Munoz
You know, I think one of the things that my parents did for our family is we moved out of the inner city and moved out to the suburbs, Huntington Beach, California. So I grew up in a mostly white high school. And so I was just used to being in the environment, and I was a surfer kid with long hair so nobody knew who I really was other than my last name. And so, no – I mean, there were various points along the way, where clearly you felt you were different. I had a girlfriend in high school and we were pretty hot and heavy. I remember her one day telling me, "Hey, my parents have talked to me and thought maybe I should start seeing someone more like myself" kind of thing. And I remember thinking like, "like another woman?" I didn't know exactly what that meant. So I was pretty naive about those things. But as the world tends to be harsh, you do have clearly some points of that. Back in the day, USC was a very – it is a private school, but very much focused towards more of the more affluent folks. They've developed greatly under the wise tutelage of some good presidents and have become a much more diverse environment, but back then it wasn't. So you sense some of that in certain fraternities and in certain areas, that you were just different, that kind of thing. But, it's one of those things where it's hard. I learned to assimilate. I learned to not take it personally, and by the way, this is not a leadership lesson. It's not what I would suggest to people. I think it is important to stand for yourself and be counted and known. I was regretfully not that way. I just tended to go along with the flow and the slights that inevitably came your way. I remember somebody calling me one of my professors in biochemistry – one of the hardest classes in the world, by the way – and I come in, I get a decent grade on a test, and he was like "Where's my super-Mex?" It's like, what the hell does he mean by that? Super-Mex? Now, it was obviously implying that not many people like me and my heritage were in his class performing at a decent rate at a young age. So, I have plenty of history post-school about the racial issues. Somebody handed me towels at a resort that I was staying at just because I looked like the help, kind of thing. Inevitably sitting down, they had their family sitting down next to my family the second day, and our kids were having a great time, and us as a couple. And then I remember saying, "You know, we've met before" to the woman, and she goes "Oh, where did we meet?" I said, "you know, yesterday, when you were leaving? You handed me your towel." And she was like, "Oh, my God." But that's how bias exists. And I think, again, those little things definitely instruct me and guide me as I try to have a dialogue with regards to issues of race, equality, income, equality, all those things that I really want to focus on in my career. But yeah, you know, you saw a lot of that, but you just muddle through, went through the issues, you delivered. I developed the mantra that I tell others – yeah, you know what, you got to work harder than others. It sucks, but you got to do it. And the more you do it, the more people will begin to understand who you are for what you do and how you do it, rather than the fact that you happen to be this. This whole thing about being the first Latino to run a giant US airline. Okay, great. But I do long for the day when that is the expectation, not the exception, right? I get all of us that are one-offs just hate hearing that over time. I don't want to be a one-off, I want that to be the expectation that anybody of any heritage or background or desire can run a large corporation if indeed they've earned their way to get to that. That's the important part.
Alan Fleischmann
Although I would argue that you've expanded that – while you're proudly Latino and you're proudly talking about Hispanic issues and you proudly represent your diversity and you encourage others – there's a part of the way you lead, which I've always admired, which is really about finding your way. Don't let no be the answer, and persevere, because even if you may have this issue or that issue or that barrier – or you may think you have it, it may be up here, it may be societally as well – don't give up. That perseverance message is a huge part of your message, I think.
Oscar Munoz
Now, there's one of the first African American pilots at United, a guy named Bill Norwood, and I always reference him, because he said something that I got later in life, but it really embodies what you just said. He said, growing up in southern Alabama during that awful time of segregation and all the issues that were being faced in the south, he said, "I lived in a world where you knew you had to work twice as hard to get half as far." And that always resonates. And yeah, you did. And it sucks. But at the same time, it is how we're going to move ahead. I have a voice now and a bully pulpit of sorts, where people can't say, "Well, he accomplished all that just because somebody gave him help because he happened to be of Latino heritage." Hell no, I earned every second of everything I've ever done, and I don't think there's a single person in the world that would question that. I've been through hell and back, like anybody else that achieves these levels, and that's a good role model because people can say, "Hey, listen, you got to work hard. Maybe you have to work a little harder in a world of bias, but the more people do it, the more people begin to accept." I am very rarely known as the Latino guy. I'm just known as Oscar at United Airlines, and it helps, the fact that I do have this history.
Alan Fleischmann
It's partly also, if not hugely, because of the way you've allowed your public presence to be interpreted and seen. There's an enormous amount of both confidence in the way you talk, but an enormous amount of humility and gratitude. There's no arrogance. So people want to raise you – you're Oscar, you're not Mr. Munoz. I mean, there's something about you that is all that being relatable. Before we get into the career part, which I think we'll jump in now, you're the oldest of nine brothers and sisters, and I'm just curious – statistically, you always hear that if the oldest one goes to college, the others follow. Did that happen in your family?
Oscar Munoz
Yes and no. It's not for lack of trying, but another bit of experience that I've learned along the way is that you can't always fit the proverbial square peg into a round hole. I think there is not one size fits all, for every human being. The fact that it worked for me, – I have 8 brothers and sisters and they all have their various levels of success and career ambitions – some have gone and some have not, and it's always been a little bit with my tutelage and making them aware of what they can do. Again, the concept of having a vehicle that you can progress and advance your life and leave a better life for your children is a great concept. And they've all found their ways, probably more focused and more intent on their children, because it's that generation that's really going to take us forward. Their generation, and then a lot of people through my scholarship foundation, taking first generation students with aptitude and sending them to college is a really big thing. It is one of the hardest things that I used to do with this scholarship where we'd find all these great kids, and I remember one story, an African American woman in East LA, and when I was there, she had a daughter who was just a brilliant vocalist and ended up going to Juilliard. But, she got to know that vehicle later. It was one of those where she was just gonna go work, and I remember trying to talk to the mom about this opportunity that I was offering and it was like, "Listen, let me take care of her. I will pay for this. And I don't want anything back other than your support for her." And she looked at me, a young small woman and grabbed me – if you can imagine sort of tugging you down – and looked at me in the eyes just like, "don't you dare. Don't you dare disappoint and let down my daughter, because that is all she's known from men for her entire life." It finally brought it home, because it's like, how can somebody refuse – hey, somebody is looking to pay for your child to go to this amazing place and make an incredible career for themselves, and they don't want to. And that's when you understand the true value and meaning of what being a parent is and truly caring. This woman was not going to let her daughter go just anywhere, and that's always stuck with me. So my pitch towards these folks that we want to help, it became completely different. Understand, listen – my mantra, listen, learn and then lead from a professional perspective – started with that, god, if you just listen, then you can understand where they're coming from, learn from that, and then you can provide an option for them. My life is full of wonderful stories like that, where I've learned.
Alan Fleischmann
Aso not to assume you know from what people decide, and why. But if you listen and talk with me and engage, you could find out. The fact is, you could have assumed that the mother was not interested in her daughter moving forward, but it was the exact opposite. She wanted her daughter to succeed and she saw you potentially going to, you know, not tease but offer an opportunity and perhaps then pull the rug from underneath her.
Oscar Munoz
It puts on a whole different value – the significance of that statement and the things that you do, the responsibility that you took on in this regard was significant. It's like, oh, forget the money. It's like, there's a whole other world of life, and that's a story that's ended up wonderfully. A lot of these kids that we've helped over the years are now giving back and keeping this foundation going both financially and through mentorship.
Alan Fleischmann
Are you in touch with all the kids that have gone through there?
Oscar Munoz
Not all of them – gosh, it's probably been 70 some plus, I've lost count. You know, my life got a little busy and I had some some of my family members trying to help for a while. But this is back to the concept of caring for people. When you start seeing a broader group of applicants, and you have to choose, because there's only so much money in the world, it just became more and more difficult and I had to sort of step away from the choices of who we picked, and then that became kind of too distant for me. It's like, well, I don't want that, I want to have the personal responsibility. So I've had to slow it down. But there's honestly a group of maybe 20 of those group that are really still engaged, and then the alumni group kind of gets together and we see each other, but people move on in their life and they go do great things.
Alan Fleischmann
Which is what you want. You want them to go on and flourish, hopefully.
Oscar Munoz
I guarantee that they're all telling this story – regardless of whether they mention the person or not – they know the experience that somebody came out of nowhere to help them. I don't care who you are and how distanced you get yourself from your roots, you're always going to remember that. And inevitably, you're going to come back around, and you're going to understand, you know what, I have the ability to help someone and I'm going to do that. So those are wonderful things you leave as a legacy.
Alan Fleischmann
No, it's amazing. There was a wonderful thing with Oprah Winfrey several years ago where she was really urging people to get off the couch and just seize the opportunity. We always have opportunity before us. And someone actually pushed back on her and said, "Yeah, that's true. There are always opportunities. But you need to remember that there are always mentors or people who take interest in you, and share whether their heart or the soul or their treasure or all the above, that allow you to be who you are." And then she went on this whole tour of thanking and recognizing the role of you know, the Oscar Munoz's of the world. People who are willing to invest in somebody else with their treasure and their heart. And it makes a difference. It makes a difference.
Oscar Munoz
Just a quick sidebar – my home in Chicago is her old home in Chicago.
Alan Fleischmann
Oh, that's funny.
Oscar Munoz
I didn't exactly know that when I bought it – somebody else bought it and we developed it and was part of it – but I still get her mail every once in a while.
Alan Fleischmann
Hopefully not her bills. That's pretty funny. That's very funny. So when I think of you, I do think of you with your career as that trains, planes and automobiles. I mean, there is this level of how you are the infrastructure guy. At a time when we do think about infrastructure, I'm just curious, when you did graduate and you started your career – and I want to get into United and all the stuff that you did there, but also the personal journey as you kind of ascended at United – but how did you decide that that's what you wanted to do?
Oscar Munoz
Which one?
Alan Fleischmann
The infrastructure part, right? If I kind of wrap them all together. You probably didn't know that you were doing that when you did it.
Oscar Munoz
No, I think having worked in all those spaces – in telecom, rail, and then of course, runways – I've just learned how much investment needs to be in the infrastructure. I was on the railway system where the rail companies paid for their infrastructure, but our competitors – in a sense, the trucks, sort of lived and worked on the public infrastructure that was paid for by others – and I've seen the failure of infrastructures, right? The bridge collapse in Minneapolis. I've seen the work that we had to do on the rail itself constantly, daily, with billions of dollars that you have to spend in order to maintain it. So I'm aware of that. And then, of course, as you travel around the world, when you think of airports, and runways, and you see that the massive infrastructure that's being built – the eastern countries, in particular, China's airports, Singapore's airports – they're just these amazing sort of complexes that are really a branding mechanism for the countries. So the need is great. I think the infrastructure, again, not being political at all, but I don't think there's a question with regards to whether we should invest in traditional infrastructure assets. Again, the question is how you're going to pay for it, and I think that's the debate that's going on. I am hopeful that the passing of this bill will actually result in actual investment. We've all been through cycles where there's an initiative of large numbers, TIGER grants a few years ago, and then the proverbial food fight for who's gonna get the money and when, and that takes forever, and the shovel ready verbiage that people use. But I think public-private partnerships – and I've been involved in LaGuardia, Dulles, Chicago, so many different places, where we've put a lot of skin in the game as an airline, along with the public, and it works out great, because you're working jointly and it makes things different. And then this bill, there's an argument that big tech and some of these other companies should put skin in the game and support because they're running off all this and they don't have any of the investment we just mentioned, right? They don't have hard assets, per se. And so I never liked to pass the buck to other things. But you know, whether it's electric charging stations, or grid investment or so, I think everyone should sort of pay their work. I wouldn't want it to be regressive in that sense. At the end of the day, the biggest danger of infrastructure is – I don't think anybody has that, "oops, I dreamed too big." I'm reminded of Daniel Webster, who back in the day – I'm a big fan of Abraham Lincoln and his leadership and his team of rivals book, I just keep with me all the time, not that I would ever model myself, absolutely model myself, but compare – but the concept of bridging those gaps between all the different viewpoints is great. But I remember the famous Daniel Webster quote was like, "I wouldn't want to spend a penny of hard earned American money to put the west part of the United States closer to Boston," right? Like, what the hell could be out there. And of course, in hindsight, you see all of that. So hopefully we can dream really big, and hopefully, we can work the process where we don't get muddled in the bureaucratic nature and nothing ever really gets built, because our infrastructure – whether it's airports, or bridges or highways – we're falling behind the rest of the world. As one that traveled 23 different countries in 2019 as a goodwill ambassador, not only for our airline, but in essence, you become a voice for your country, you see what they're doing and how they're doing it, and you know, different governmental structures and different processes. But we as a nation in the strength that we've built over the many centuries or so, in order to maintain that we're going to have to get our collective stuff together and really make this happen.
Alan Fleischmann
And in order for this country to actually lead. But there's also a human rights issue in this, in the midst of all this sometimes, because the most vulnerable communities in many ways have the least infrastructure as well, although it's an issue that plagues everywhere. On your journey, was there a moment where you realized "I want to be a CEO?"
Oscar Munoz
You know, I just had this conversation with somebody and I've always – no, the answer is no, I did not wake up one day thinking that. The earliest vision in my memory of wanting to be quote "someone" other than what I saw in my environment or in my community was when I was very young and one of my uncles was attending university in a different country – it wasn't a university – all I remember is they wore coats and ties. That's the vision I had. And it's like, wow, that's the only people I ever saw in my life around me that had coats and ties, and it was like, "I kind of think I would like to wear a coat and tie." And that's the earliest visual I had of wanting to be something different. And then again, you've heard the story of my high school experience with Mrs. Duckworth. I didn't have any plans to do anything other than go work and get married, raise a family, and live happily like all my aunts and uncles, and they live a very wonderful life. But there is more to be done. And so as I began to work, I worked for a lot of different people and a couple of different industries, and I got to see the good and bad, I got a chance to work very closely with some very senior and serious leaders in American capitalism. So I got to learn from all of them. But by and large, I always kept my head down and just did my job. I was a finance person, a strategy person. So I did that work. But back to the concept of learning from others, and listening, and then learning and leading, I became closer and closer to the people that actually ran operations around sales and marketing. The more I worked with them, inevitably, somebody saw it wise to make me a COO. It's like, "Well, hey, he's such a smart finance guy. Let's see if you can do this." And so I took on a role at the railroad with a very strong union environment, and it was kind of like, hey, let's see if you can run this thing. And you learned a lot from it. The CEO when I was CFO, we always had kind of a good strong debate. He always wanted more, and I would always pull academic rights like hey, you've got to build a plan, you got to put cases together, and he was just an operation guy. It's like, "Listen, I run a damn company, I need locomotives," he would say. So he would allow me this. But when I came COO – this is a funny leadership lesson for all of us – when I became COO, and I got involved enough in the role and I learned really practically about what was needed in the environment, I remember vividly saying, "well, who the hell was the CFO that didn't allow us to invest in these locomotives? We need locomotives, and we need them now. I don't have time to put business cases together." And so I tell that story all the time, especially to finance organizations because it's the proverbial 'walk a mile in someone's shoes,' because there's just so many things that aren't directly attributable to business cases. Of course, you have to have prudence and you have to prioritize and all those sorts of things, but the concept of doing that – so I did all those roles, and in doing those roles, solved a lot of the issues that we had with the unions and the lack of engagement. What you saw very quickly is engagement and communication and building a bit of bridge of trust, which made for a much better operation. All of a sudden, – we took my company at CSX, and I have a document and a little bar here, a little memory board – we had, let me see if I can read it, a 600% increase in operating income in my time at that company. We took a company that was roughly a $6.5 billion dollar market cap and when I left it was well close to $50 billion in market cap. And in all of that, we did not let go of people, we trained people, we created great contracts with our union folks, our safety record increased, our community outreach, that whole breadth of scope that corporations in America are really learning to be part of the community, and I think it's a wonderful evolution in movement. But I was doing that way back in the day and it's something we're very proud of to this day, the team.
Alan Fleischmann
That's amazing. But also, I think there's something really poignant about the fact that you were CFO and COO. When we think of CFOs and COOs and the C-suite, they are horizontal as well as vertical. They think of the whole company, not just their own. However, there's nothing like the CEO, because the CFO is still fighting for his or her area that she or he controls and the COO has to look at the things that are their priorities. The only one that's looking at the whole enterprise fully and has to pick horizontally and vertically is the CEO. It's a lonely job, but you are well prepared for it. But even then, I'm sure, you walked in and you're like, this is not CFO anymore. This is not COO anymore. This is a whole different thing. I'm the point guy. I'm the person. The buck stops with me.
Oscar Munoz
Right, and it's oft said and people nod their head and say "yeah, yeah, so lonely at the top," but it's not lonely if you know how to not make it lonely because you have to make an outreach to folks and involve them. But for anyone that listens to this as they aspire to more senior levels, I can't impress upon you the importance of involving – genuinely involving – and valuing the views and opinions of others. You are never too good or too smart. Your decisions are always going to be yours, and you can over-index on getting too much input and viewpoint, and it is hard, but at the same time, it is a job that requires every ounce of your capability, strength, EQ, and IQ to make it work. There's lots of coaches out there that guide you and do all these things, but I just cannot express how important it is for people to genuinely check yourself all the time. Because the responsibility of the role is so vast and great that it can overwhelm you. Then over time, if you make a lot of good decisions, you think every decision you make is good, and if you make a couple bad decisions, you get kind of reticent to make those things. You need people around you that support you, that will tell you when the emperor has no clothes. And importantly, as I always said to – I use Chief of Staffs for that, as my tactical view, you find the greatest people in the company that can come work for you for a period of time, and my guidance to all of them is you'll learn the job that you'll have to do. But most importantly, we're driving in a car and we're driving really fast. And it's a swervy road. And there are cliffs everywhere. You have to stop me from going over those cliffs because you're in the car with me. So again, just visuals that give people an impression of you have to stop me when I'm saying or doing the wrong thing. You get caught up and you know, you get on TV and you use the old adage of if it feels good saying it, you probably shouldn't be saying – it is a little bit true. But, a lot of those things, and so we could spend an hour on CEO training.
Alan Fleischmann
But that's so brilliant, but the idea of being a CEO is that it is lonely at the top. Part of it's also because it's inherent in the role. Many people want to tell you you're the handsomest person in the room and you're the smartest person in the room. They don't want to tell you things you don't want to hear. On the other hand, bad news doesn't travel up. On the other hand, you can't do what you want to do with the wrong people who are going to tell you all the "no no no, nay nay nay" if you're trying to change and transform, so you need people who can do both, which is hard. We're going to run out of time, which I don't want to do. There's so much to talk about, Oscar, it's extraordinary. I think of you as a transformational leader. I think of you as a CEO. You just described the attributes and adjectives that come with being a CEO, and yet energy is a big part of it and health is a big part of it, I would imagine, and yet you come in as the CEO of United Airlines, you walk in the door. And in the first job, you had a pretty difficult first year. I mean, you suffered a major heart attack, received a heart transplant, you probably were given a prognosis of a long road to recovery. And yet, gosh, you didn't throw in the towel. You and your wife Kathy and family didn't say to you, "you know what? Enough, we've achieved enough. Let's just get back on that rocking chair and relax." There's got to be some voice in you, something in you, that said, "You know what, I'm going to overcome this and we're going to keep moving." It's stunning. It's stunning internally and stunning externally. You did not miss a beat. Tell us about that.
Oscar Munoz
Oh, gosh, again, I'll try to be relatively brief.
Alan Fleischmann
And by the way you're on Leadership Matters on SiriusXM. And I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. Having an amazing conversation with an extraordinary leader in life, not just in corporate life, Oscar Munoz, who until recently was Chairman and also CEO of United Airlines.
Oscar Munoz
The story I think begins with, as you said, at the start of your question, there's never a shortage of people giving you direction of what you need to do – on the street, your customers, certainly your internal leadership team. What I've learned and what I like to say is it was a turnaround situation, for sure. And in a turnaround situation, what's most evident is that there is no shortage of things to fix. There's a lot of things that are broken. Which one you pick to start with first, I think, is the most crucial thing, advice that I would give. You'e got to pick a major one and go after that first, and that becomes your base, your groundwork, your platform for doing things. So, I had reams of information and data – I chose and again, it was more my sense and something I learned at the railroad – I said, "Listen," I told the street, "I'm going to spend the first 60 to 90 days listening. I'm going to go roam every nook and cranny of our vast network and I'm going to talk to the people who actually do the job, who actually touch our customers, who actually have to fly the planes and fix the planes. I'm going to figure out what they've got. And when I get all that information, then I can look at all the statistical and metrics and data and determine what our next step is." And so that's the tour I went on. It culminated with, wow, there were just so many things broken, but on a flight home from Chicago – and this is all part and parcel to your question – on the way home to Chicago, on one fateful week, there was a flight attendant named Sue from Denver. My way of gathering information, by the way, is really complicated and technical, I walk up to you, and "Hey, what's going on?" Very quickly, people learned that they could talk to me and I would listen and I would write notes. When I talked to her, she broke down in tears, and this is a fateful moment in United history, because she said, "I'm just tired of always having to say, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that our flight's late. I'm sorry that I don't have food. I'm sorry the Wi-Fi doesn't work. I'm sorry." If you think about that, from a human perspective, it sucks, right? Going to work and just having to apologize for what you think are idiots that are running this place, that can't get things right, and you take the brunt of it?
Alan Fleischmann
She's on the front line, she's right there. That's right.
Oscar Munoz
So that was the brunt of it, and I was really worried about until that moment, because I didn't know how I was going to sort of navigate this amazing amount of information I was getting, and the light bulb hadn't gone on. Well, the light bulb went on. I went in and gathered our team and inevitably became – well, there was a lull period. So I came home that week, two days later, I suffered this massive heart attack.
Alan Fleischmann
Forgot that part. Was there any hint that this was coming? I assume not at all.
Oscar Munoz
Zero. None. None. That's the thing about heart disease. You don't have to look a certain way. It's all internal. It's genetics. It's your plumbing, for lack of a better term, that makes you susceptible. Some of the greatest research that's going on, it's still not indicative, is how can you tell whether or not a heart is going to fail or not. There was no sense in my – without very invasive surgery to figure that out, you really don't know. We all go to executive physicals, and eventually they can figure out something in that regard. But usually it's too late. So I had no idea. None whatsoever. And so the story goes, I got very sick, I was in an induced coma for a week or so. But the 37 days of travel in the business really made an impact because the outpouring of affection from my very fledgling United family members was unbelievable. It is one of the most touching, another one of my many touching moments in my life. After I was recovering, after I made it through, and even though everybody's saying, "you're still gonna die," because I kind of blew up my heart that required a transplant inevitably. The outpouring of affection, the letters, the flowers, the food that was coming in to my apartment – because I was in a hospital under an assumed name, because that's what you do. I know if people remember at the time, every talking head on TV was talking about how privacy doesn't matter if you're a company. Like screw that, my family was being literally assaulted by media sometimes, like, "Hey, where's your dad? Is he dead yet?" And no things like that, that are just uncouth and uncharacteristic. But the United family's letters, and I mean, I'm talking bags of mail that would arrive into my apartment every day, and the kids would bring it to the hospital. We would have what the doctors and nurses dubbed "the morning reading," where my own kids would read these incredibly touching notes of people I have never met in my life, right? But that's what really cemented my intuition, but certainly, it just ratified how the United family members – the pride, the professionalism, the desire to be better – was all resident and more importantly, it was the carrot. You fast forward – something we call the "Core Four" when caring became part of the United mantra – it's all about that they wanted to do that, and I became a little bit of that guiding light. So that's what kept me going. I never for a second, despite all the doctors and all the medical facts pointing to the fact that this might not work, you may not make it, I never once had, at all, a sense that I wasn't going to come back completely and fully to finish what I had started. That's a true story. And again, we could go on in many details about that – my heart transplant. But when somebody tells you, hey big guy, you've pretty much blown up your heart and you're gonna need a new one. You're like, uh-uh. Let me go. I'll fix this. I'll go do whatever and rehab, and I went, we went around and saw various people around the country to get a second, third, fourth opinions, and we all said, "You know what, forget working, just to lead a life where you can be generally active, you're going to require a heart transplant." That's a pretty big personal moment. It was like, let me get this straight: you going to take my heart – my heart, not my, you know, not my knee replacement – you have to take my heart, and you have to remove it and put a new one in? I was very fortunate. I got mine in I think it was two weeks. It was just happenstance. I was checking a lot of different places out, and on the morning of my birthday, my doctor called and said, "God, you know, boy, have we got a kick ass heart for you." That's a quote. And I was like, what do I do? And he goes, "Well, you know, we have to harvest the heart, and that doesn't happen till later in the day in the hospital because they've got things scheduled. So just relax for a while and come out later in the afternoon." Back to the story of our management team and our concept of what I was doing workwise, we just happened to be in a session with all the senior leaders of the airline, in a strategy session about what our go-forward, North star directive was going to be. What was the thing that I was going to deliver after my 90 days of travel? And so we're all together, and I think it was a Tuesday or a Wednesday, I forget – it was a Wednesday, and that morning was when we were going to make the decision. The day before, we had done a lot of work. I walked into this meeting in the morning and said, – you know, I couldn't tell anybody – I said, "Hey, listen, something just came up, I'm gonna have to go to the hospital for a little bit." But that was the day that we determined as a management team, not as Oscar Munoz, but as our management team that is determining all the ills that affected us what was going to be the first mission of the United Airlines. It was what became famous, at least in our annals, is we were going to regain the trust of our employees. Not our customers. Not our investors. (And by the way, customers and investors went nuts when we talked about that. You know, investors were like, "Well, that sounds like he's gonna give the money to everyone else." And of course, the employees are like, "that's my boy, right there, he gets it.") And that was our first big guiding mission, is to regain the trust. It became the incredible swelling moment of emotion and affection. I think there's a point where we all have lots of ability and capability, and we have a degree of how much we can do for others. It just opened up, in my mind, that a lot of our people at United, they wanted to do better, and they wanted to make more, and the fact that somebody was going to pay attention and need to regain their trust – I could have put, "well, we're going to grow at X percent, we're gonna invest in this" – it wasn't that. We had to get our basic human assets in the right place and that was the foundation. That all culminated along the time when this transplant was going on. So we determined that path, I went away, and the news hit and people went crazy. But that concept got out very quickly. And that is the wonderful foundation and it's, to some degree, what really helped turn United around.
Alan Fleischmann
It's your greatest legacy. And I love the idea of that 37 days, because how you spent that time was focusing, listening, and learning. That humility, which has been your whole journey, and that EQ part, your curiosity, your insatiable interest in others. I think that meant you met the craving and the authentic need of your employees, but to get it right as a passenger, your employees are everything, and for your passengers to be happy, that's everything to your investors. So you see, actually you had it right. It's not what you would think is the right sequence. It's not what you think would be the right order of things, but certainly it is. When you think about what you've achieved, that's a great, powerful leadership legacy. We only have a couple minutes left, but I want to mention –.
Oscar Munoz
No, I was just gonna say that's what the listen and learn and lead came from, and that's the leadership lesson I learned.
Alan Fleischmann
Listen, learn and lead.
Oscar Munoz
It's like listen and I mean really listen, not like "oh, yeah, sounds great, Alan." No, listen. And the learn part is you take all of it and then really try to figure out what people are really saying, go back and listen some more, and then make your leadership decision. Then you have the masses behind you where they feel like they've been part of such a strong thing.
Alan Fleischmann
You can't use the word love – the other 'L' I guess in business, anymore – but the idea that you cared, genuinely cared, and so when you listen, learn, and lead, along the way, as you heard things like that woman who worked there and said "I'm just so tired," she was on the front lines and she was disappointing everyone. And the idea that you took that and said, she represented so many others and that we have to turn this around is enormous. I don't want to end this without mentioning your wife, Kathy, and your immediate family as well, because you guys, you're very humble about it, but you and Kathy, both, are philanthropic leaders. You've created a wonderful family. I just wanted to ask you about that because the legacy of your leadership – and you're so young, when I say legacy it means the best is yet to come, and I'm looking forward to this with you. The lessons you've learned, what you've shared, how you represent diversity – not just diversity from a racial- or community-minded way, but diversity in thinking and caring, and a societal building way – you and your wife have been right there at the forefront. So mention a couple things about Kathy and your family, and your philosophy around philanthropy. And then promise me Oscar to come back on, because what we need is two hours, not one.
Oscar Munoz
I'm happy to come back. A family update, we just welcomed Emma Lynn, our first granddaughter, and she is the most delightful child in the world. So it's been an incredibly wonderful new addition.
Alan Fleischmann
That's amazing. That's amazing. But it's a family affair, right? When it comes to the work that you're doing to kind of repair the world.
Oscar Munoz
There's no question. I mean, the concept of my family and kids reading those notes and the journey that they've had to go through – my young son, who was so young, that the concept of a new heart, he asked himself the question, "is that going to change who Dad is?" He's a big athlete, and we always talk about the heart of the fight and all those things. And he's thinking, geez, Dad's going to have a new heart, is he going to be a different human being? And the personal trials and tribulations he went through, and each one of them in the family that had to go through so much, but wonderful, they were incredibly supportive, they never doubted the fact that Dad was going to return. That and prayer certainly has helped quite a bit.
Alan Fleischmann
You lost a mother young, so you knew enough to know what that meant, and I'm sure that the fact that you were, in your own way, always ambitious to get recovered and to move forward, I'm sure that was a part of that as well. Your mother's loss was powerful for her and for your whole family and for you, and you didn't want to be part of that with your own if you could help it, which I'm sure was pretty good as well. So what's next for Oscar? What is next for Oscar because, you know, now that you're free from the shackles of CEOship, at the moment, you have the enormous opportunity to share a lot of wisdom and to give a lot of counsel, and share what it's like to overcome in ways that have impact for others.
Oscar Munoz
I think you certainly want to share your views with other CEOs and boards, so I'm serving on several boards, advising a ton of small companies. We are in the throes of maybe launching a SPAC, which allows you to find great, thriving companies. I have a strong desire and an altruistic sense combined with business to assist in this income equality issue. I think one of the great things to diversity and inclusion and equality is that people have to have equal – I don't care how you think about it, the divide in how much people make, and the wider it gets, has societal issues that I don't know that we always comprehend and understand, and to fix that, we all have to make a little bit of sacrifices, sometimes. I know we don't like taxes on one side, and there's all political views. But there's a definitive path of making that and in allowing access to capital to people that don't have it. In particular, in my world with the Latino world, the entrepreneurial nature of Latinos in this country are amazing. I could go on, but the capability, the purchasing power of Latinos in America is in the trillions of dollars. If it was a standalone country, it would be the seventh or eighth largest country GDP in the world. And those people are here in the United States, speak English, are young, are loyal, are voting, are more and more educated every single day, and so my speech, my push towards all capital allocators of capitalism – the CEOs of the world – is I ain't asking for money. I ain't asking you for a handout. I'm not asking for you to higher and put more people on your board, which you should all do. You should understand that this cohort is big, thriving, growing, and spends a ton of money. Focus on them. Play to them. Commercialize to them. Provide them access. Again, just like everything else, I think one of the things that I want to really do is, through various ways, create funds and create environments where people can come and get access to capital so they can build the next great companies of the world. That's how we're going to get equality. It's not just about Brown or Black or Asian – Corporate America still has a certain bias when it comes to business, and we want to be able to expand that a little bit and understand that, for instance, marketing to Hispanics is a meaningful and an excellent return on investment and altruistically, it also creates a thing of diversity. So ESG, and all those things are becoming more and more, but you'll see me doing – hopefully, we can talk again and I can tell you a lot more about what we're doing in that space.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. I think that's right. I think we can't make a democracy or society thrive if we don't make the economy and make capitalism work. Without access to capital, as you described, without access to mentors, without access to opportunity, we can't make the rest of our community or society even survive, let alone thrive. The fact that you're pointing out that the Latino population in this country, which is growing, is a potent way to create a stronger, faster, smarter economy, then society will make capitalism work. So the next time we come together, let's talk about how we make capitalism work and what it means to create access, and how do we actually do it in a way that is inclusive and not exclusive, the way you described? Because it's urgent.
Oscar Munoz
The other idea is a concept called proof, not promise. I'm very proud that if you talk to mostly anyone at United, the one thing they will always say is that Oscar never promised anything that he didn't actually do. That's a big thing for me, as I talk about this new chapter and all the various things we're going to do. I look forward to that proof, not just the promise, all those things that we'll be doing.
Alan Fleischmann
Well, thank you Oscar Munoz, you are a great man, a great leader. You have overcome so many things, personally and professionally. You do it with such an elegance and humility. I love to hear the way you've turned these things into life lessons that you share with others. It's inspiring. We need you. I'm looking forward to being on this journey with you and we want you back on the show. So thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us on Leadership Matters.
Oscar Munoz
Thanks, Alan. Really appreciate it. Take care.
Alan Fleischmann
Talk to you soon. Bye now.
