Renée Fleming
Grammy Award-Winning Opera Soprano
Author, Music and Mind: Harnessing the Arts for Health and Wellness
When I talk to young singers, I say that when you get that break, you need to take it – and you need to succeed. There can't be any excuses. You can't sabotage yourself. You have to go for it.
Summary
This week, Alan was joined on “Leadership Matters” by an acclaimed opera soprano singer whose voice has captivated audiences around the world for over four decades. Renée Fleming is a five-time Grammy Award-winning musician who is one of the most beloved and celebrated singers of our time.
Over the course of their hour-long discussion, Renée and Alan explore her wide-reaching musical education and path towards international celebrity, essential advocacy efforts at the intersection of arts, health, and neuroscience, and the many lessons in leadership she has learned along the way. Together, Renée and Alan take a deep dive into her new book, Music and Mind: Harnessing the Arts for Health and Wellness. It’s a must-read anthology featuring essays from leading scientists, artists, and music therapists about the powerful impacts of music and the arts on health and the human experience.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
Guest Bio
Renee Fleming is one of the most acclaimed singers of our time, performing on the stages of the world's great opera houses and concert halls. Honored with four Grammy® awards and the US National Medal of Arts, she has sung for momentous occasions from the Nobel Peace Prize ceremony to the Diamond Jubilee Concert for Queen Elizabeth II at Buckingham Palace. In 2014, Renée became the first classical artist ever to sing the National Anthem at the Super Bowl.
Renée's current concert calendar includes appearances in Paris, Berlin, Vienna, London, Los Angeles, Houston, and at Carnegie Hall. In the spring of 2022, she joined The Philadelphia Orchestra in a world premiere concert of The Hours, a new opera based on the Pulitzer Prize-winning novel and award-winning film. She will appear in the fully-staged premiere at the Metropolitan Opera in November. During the pandemic, Renée's performances on digital platforms included streamed online concerts for the Metropolitan Opera, the Kennedy Center, Lyric Opera of Chicago, and the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra.
Known for bringing new audiences to classical music and opera, Renée has sung not only with Luciano Pavarotti and Andrea Bocelli, but also with Elton John, Paul Simon, Sting, Josh Groan, and Joan Baez. She has hosted a wide variety of television and radio broadcasts, including the Metropolitan Opera's Live in HD series and Live from Lincoln Center. Her voice is featured on the soundtracks of Best Picture Oscar winners The Shape of Water and The Lord of the Rings. She has recorded everything from complete operas and song recitals to indie rock and jazz. Renee's latest album is Voice of Nature: The Anthropocene. A collection of classical songs and world premieres, the album focuses on nature as both inspiration and casualty of humans.
In 2019, Renée starred opposite Ben Whishaw in Norma Jean Baker of Troy to open The Shed in New York City. Later that year, she appeared in the London premiere of The Light in the Piazza, bringing the acclaimed production to Los Angeles and Chicago. Renée earned a Tony Award nomination for her performance in the 2018 Broadway production of Carousel.
In recent years, Renée has become a leading advocate for research at the intersection of arts, health, and neuroscience. As Artistic Advisor to the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, she launched the first ongoing collaboration between America's national cultural center and the National Institutes of Health.
She has presented her program Music and the Mind in more than 50 cities around the world. In 2020, Rene launched Music and Mind LIVE, a weekly web show exploring the connections between arts, human health, and the brain, amassing nearly 700,000 views, from 70 countries.
Advisor for Special Projects at LA Opera, Renée also leads SongStudio at Carnegie Hall. She is Co-Director of the Aspen Opera Center and VocalArts at the Aspen Music Festival. Renée's other awards include the Fulbright Lifetime Achievement Medal, Germany's Cross of the Order of Merit, Sweden's Polar Music Prize, and France's Chevalier de la Légion d'Honneur.
Episode Transcript
Alan Fleischmann
I'm joined today by an acclaimed opera soprano singer whose voice has captivated audiences around the world. For over four decades. Renée Fleming has been called possibly the most beautiful soprano voice in the world, and she is one of the most beloved and celebrated singers of our time. A five time Grammy Award-winning musician, Renée has introduced countless new audiences to classical music and opera. In addition to performing with legendary singers such as Luciano Pavarotti, and Andre Andrea Bocelli, Renée has transcended genres to collaborate with Elton John, Paul Simon, Sting, Joan Baez, and many many others.
On top of her artistry, Renée has become a leading advocate for research at the intersection of arts, health, and neuroscience. As artistic advisor to the Kennedy Center. She launched the first ongoing collaboration between the Kennedy Center and the National Institutes of Health.
Last month, Renée published her second book, Music and Mind, Harnessing the Arts for Health and Wellness, an anthology of essays from leading scientists, artists, and music therapists about the powerful impacts of music and the arts on health and the human experience. Renée is a dear friend, and I am excited to have her finally on the show today to discuss her fascinating background, incredible journey, new book, and the many lessons in leadership she has learned along the way.
Renée, welcome to “Leadership Matters.” It is such a pleasure to have you on.
Renée Fleming
Thank you, Alan, I'm delighted to be with you today. It's always fun.
Alan Fleischmann
I'm excited to have a great conversation. Let's get started with your early exposure to music. Growing up in upstate New York, you were the eldest daughter of two high school music teachers, who were both active in the Rochester music scene and regularly performed in local operas. How did this early exposure impact your own desire to perform?
Renée Fleming
Well, I never wanted to perform actually, I was an incredibly shy child and a bookworm. I read constantly. I loved animals, I loved horses, I dreamt about horses, I was one of those girls. And so it just was the farthest thing from my mind to be a performer. And I actually got hooked on it in college through singing jazz, and actually singing with a big band and then a trio. And that was where I thought I would end up but it wasn’t meant to be because I was studying classical music. I was really sucked into the love for developing my instrument, learning the repertoire of 300 years and style and eventually I really loved it and continue to follow it.
Alan Fleischmann
Looking back, can you pinpoint a particular moment when your desire to become not just a musician, but actually to be a singer? When did did that first emerge?
Renée Fleming
You know, the moment I would say was when I was finishing up undergrad school, and had was offered a tour actually with the famous tenor saxophone player, Illinois Jaquet, because he had come to my undergrad school in Potsdam,New York, which was a State University of New York, and gave a masterclass and I sang a jazz song for him. And he offered for me to go on tour with him. And it was at that moment that I thought, “I'm not ready for this.” I felt very young and quite sort of innocent. And also, I would say that I liked to be in school, so I went to graduate school instead.
So I continued on, not only with graduate school, but then I had a Fulbright scholarship and studied in Germany for a year, which was an incredible experience. I recommend it to everyone. And then I was at Juilliard, in between those two experiences. So I had a phenomenal education in the end, and absolutely became passionate about classical music and opera, the art of the recital, and I'm so grateful because as much as I love singing jazz, I ended up where I belonged.
Alan Fleischmann
You had a lot of choices. You have proven in your career that you're not only an extraordinary, best of the best opera singer, but you're also just in general, an amazing singer. Was there ever a moment earlier in your career where you thought, “You know what, I'll go another route and do more of the jazz or do other forms of singing?”
Renée Fleming
I have very eclectic tastes in music. I also wrote music when I was in high school and even middle school, I was so shy that writing music gave me a kind of an expressive outlet which I needed. And so, we all did music theater all the time, I made a jazz record and a rock album called Haunted Heart. And I also have recorded a ton of music theater and performed on Broadway in “Carousel” – I got a Tony nomination.
So I definitely want to pursue these other things. But this was only after I felt like I had mastered my voice and the lyrical soprano repertoire. Then I started to branch out a little bit. But as far as really following those careers, those opportunities really didn't present themselves to me, except for classical music. Because that's what our education is: if you go to college or university and study music, you probably are going to have a classical music education. Now, that's changing, and there are a lot of great schools that teach jazz and music theater.
Alan Fleischmann
You need a different formal training for different types of singing?
Renée Fleming
Absolutely. Because you know, I sound a lot different when I'm singing other other types of styles, because we, in classical music, don't use microphones. And so that's a huge difference. And I was really stunned when I did Carousel on Broadway that I had to get used to someone else controlling the volume. And not me, I'm used to kind of going to a hall – even any new space – even if it has horrible acoustics, and kind of figuring it out and finding (using my experience and my voice and my ears) a way to make even a bad acoustic work for me. And when that control is completely taken away, it's in a way voice saving. It's what enables Broadway singers to sing eight shows a week and not have vocal injury every month. But it's just something I'm not used to.
Alan Fleischmann
Early in your training, did you have a teacher or a mentor who just said, “you have extraordinary talent?” Were you being recognized earlier on, even before you were recognized publicly?
Renée Fleming
Well, yes, and no. I mean, I did very well in school. And my first launch, my first voice voice teacher was extremely influential in my undergrad school. And she said, “You're a great musician.” I had a very strong musical background growing up with music. Really, before I talked, I was singing. And so you know, I didn't think I had a great voice as a result. And so it wasn't until I was at Juilliard, and met my teacher there who I was with for 16 years until she passed away, that I felt my voice really changing and evolving. And finally, when I got one good review that just said, “What a great instrument,” I brought a copy, I carried it to her studio, and said, “Look, somebody said I had a beautiful voice.” So I would say I was a late bloomer.
Alan Fleischmann
You got your bachelor's degree at the Crane School of Music in Potsdam. Right? Why did you decide to go there?
Renée Fleming
Because a very gifted singer from my high school went there. And I wanted to go to Oberlin and didn't get enough financial aid for my parents to be able to swing it. So my mother cried the whole way home from the school, but she was so disappointed, but frankly, Potsdam was a much better place for me. I had a phenomenal teacher who taught me about life and taught me about cultivating a love for music in general. She challenged me also tremendously in terms of giving me these incredibly difficult pieces to learn and sing and I wouldn't have had nearly the amount of personal attention at a bigger school or more important conservatory than I had at Potsdam. It was phenomenal.
Alan Fleischmann
That's amazing to hear. And then you had the opportunity to go on tour when you were in undergrad with Illinois Jaquet, the saxophonist?
Renée Fleming
I wasn't ready and I went and got my master's degree instead.
Alan Fleischmann
Oh, interesting. So you had an opportunity to go on the road.
Renée Fleming
I felt I knew I was too young and kind of too naive and, and university rocked. Just during the Eastman School, where actually it was where I grew up, it was so comfortable. And also, I had a wonderful two years there too. So after that, I was on my way in terms of classical music because Juilliard came. And really the Fulbright scholarship to Germany was extremely important. What an important opportunity that was.
Alan Fleischmann
Where did you live in Germany?
Renée Fleming
Frankfurt.
Alan Fleischmann
Frankfurt? For a year? I mean, the great thing about Germany is I'm sure it was really clear then that there's an opera house in almost every small town, let alone the big cities.
Renée Fleming
Exactly. It's still the case. A lot of Americans now are going there to start their careers and, hopefully, sometimes even stay there, because the repertoire in the US is shrinking. So unless you fit the sort of 10 titles that are being done in every house in the US, you're better off there.
Alan Fleischmann
You travel all the time. And you loved your experience in Germany, as you said, looking back now, decades later, you've now performed in all parts of the world. How did this first experience in Germany shape that world outlook for you?
Renée Fleming
Well, mainly because I had to learn the language. So within six months, I was very fluent in German, you know, it helps when you're young, it just happen more quickly. And that I didn't know at the time that I was going to become a Strauss specialist – he was really my calling card. And still, I sing the four last songs that he wrote with orchestras, more than any other piece in my entire career. So that was, that was luck, you know, or fate, or however you want to describe it. But I was very fortunate to end up there for that one year.
Alan Fleischmann
And did you liked Wagner When you were there?
Renée Fleming
You know? I really had very little exposure to Wagner. And it's never been in my repertoire. I do like it absolutely now, but it wasn't formative. He wasn't a formative composer for me.
Alan Fleischmann
Early opportunities happened because of Juilliard. And your jazz club experience was a pretty big deal, as well?
Renée Fleming
Yeah it just taught me how to sing freely, and how to use my imagination and how to improvise. But, what got me off to my start was really with Mozart. I sang Mozart for about 10 years before I switched to Strauss.
Alan Fleischmann
That's cool. It’s very interesting how you’ve worked your way up to larger stages. By the late 1980s, and 1988, you won the Met opera auditions. At just 29 years old, you weren't even 30. Tell us a little bit about that accomplishment. And the lead up a little bit, as that seemed like a real big breakthrough.
Renée Fleming
Yeah, it well, it kind of launched me in a way because I was immediately hired to sing Rusalka at Seattle opera. But I kind of skipped the regional level, I was very fortunate to be with a manager who had a soprano who was singing in all the major houses in Europe in the US. And so it didn't take long for me to kind of take the jobs that she couldn't take. And so I just went right to the big houses. So I was lucky in that respect. And, you know, 29, it's not that young. Now. There are, you know, lots of singers even in my day who were launched in their mid 20s. So, but I was very lucky to get going in the way that I did, because, you know, my big debut was at the Royal Opera in London. And after that, it wasn't long before it was in Paris. And Paris was my second home after the Met. For a long time.
Alan Fleischmann
You went back and forth between New York and Paris?
Renée Fleming
Yes, I mean, the Metropolitan Opera was my main homes for most of my career – almost all of my career, actually. And I was happy because, you know, I lived in New York or outside of New York, and so I wanted to be where my children were, that was a huge challenge. Managing motherhood with a career that has you traveling all the time.
Alan Fleischmann
Is there any way to do that without traveling too much?
Renée Fleming
No, definitely not. No, because your houses are mainly in Europe and in the US, for an American singer, but a lot of European singers never need to come to the US even if they don't want to. And so there's just no way to do this to have a career like this without traveling.
Alan Fleischmann
Understandable. And what was it like to perform in those storied musical institutions? The Met, Paris – what do you consider to be the most iconic? Of the opera houses? And did you pinch yourself when you first performed?
Renée Fleming
Absolutely. Vienna is one, certainly Munich or Berlin, London, Paris, you know, I love opera, opera, I would say Paris is the opera capital of the world, because they had, at one time, they had five different opera houses in that city that were all sold out all the time. I always say London is the classical music, home of the world, because same thing, they have so many orchestras, so much music going on all the time. And, and in the US, the major houses are in New York, Chicago, Houston, San Francisco, LA.
Alan Fleischmann
In 1990, you won the Richard Tucker Award, which is given to the one individual each year who's on the threshold of major international stardom, a major international career. What was your reaction to winning this incredible achievement? And was it expected?
Renée Fleming
That Richard Tucker award is a wonderful award when they I mean, honestly, when you get it, it's not that point at which you need it. So they're, they pick people every year who are a sure thing, they're there already. They may be young singers, but they're already established. What was really great is they have a couple of smaller awards leading up to that career grant awards that are can be extremely helpful, because there's this, there's this no man's land, in our business between education and career, when you're flailing, you don't necessarily know if you're going to make it, you aren't getting enough work, you know, I came very close to quitting singing and doing something else. So. So that's when young singers need support.
Alan Fleischmann
I love the idea that you're such a great mentor role model. There's so many people, was there a mentor? Was there a moment where you actually said, I may not continue doing this? And did you? Was there somebody who stepped in and said, you know, don't give up yet?
Renée Fleming
Well, there wasn't someone I mean, I definitely had support. I had people who believed in me. But there, there was a lot of competition, too. There's no shortage of young people who wanted to become singers on the stage and this way, but it is extremely competitive. So it was just getting a break. It was somebody kind of finally giving you a job that we all need.
When I talk to young singers, I say when you get that break, you need to take it and you need to succeed. That can't be any excuse. You can't sabotage yourself, you have to go for it. And so I was lucky that would continue because there's no manager who has the leverage to kind of start you out. You have to get a chance and you have to do well.
Alan Fleischmann
Is there any performance during that period in particular that has stuck with you and in any really meaningful way where it's never faded?
Renée Fleming
Well, the big break for me, the main one was when I sang with Placido Domingo on the opening night of the Met in Othello. So that's a fellow for the Shakespeare version, but the opera is Othello. And that was huge. That really launched me in the US. And then I would say the big break before that was actually in Italy when I sang in our Mita and that would put me on the map and Europe.
Alan Fleischmann
When you were with someone like Placido Domingo, did he see you as a potential peer? I mean, how does that work when you've got someone who's just so iconic and established at that point? Was there generosity?
Renée Fleming
Absolutely. I would say that a wonderful aspect to our business is that we celebrate young artists and support them. And there's this kind of, I would say there's because we're all singing the same pieces as well. On the one side in opera, I don't sing with other Sopranos. So that's helpful. Because early on, you know, that would be difficult if you see somebody kind of breathing down your neck. I feel very generous towards young artists. So I think that's also a personality thing.
Alan Fleischmann
Is there anyone in particular that struck you as being super generous, that role model woman or man, opera, iconic figure who was especially generous?
Renée Fleming
The book I wrote a while ago with Ann Patchett, called the Inner Voice, we focused on mentors, because it was such an important part of my whole launch. And the book is really about how to really progress in the businesses and also how to develop your voice.
My mentors were Joan Sutherland, Marilyn Horne, and Beverly Sills. They used to have lunch with me and yell at me it was adorable and say, “Why are you singing this, you should be singing this.” And the most important one, I think, was Leontyne Price. Because she actually gave me real time at a point when I was in my prime and actually just at the top of the field and feeling overwhelmed by the offers and the amount of people who weren't wanting a piece of me. And she said, “Listen, you need to hear what I have to tell you” and she invited me to her house in New York City. She basically preached for an hour. I took notes. It was the most incredible experience. She gave me a roadmap for how to survive that period.
I visit her now. She lives not far from us, Alan. And she answers the door. She's just turned 97, singing a high C. Like sustained, high C. She is miraculous. And I feel so uplifted and happy when I can visit her.
Alan Fleischmann
That's incredible. I'm just thrilled she’s that active.
Renée Fleming
I wouldn't say she's terribly active, but she's 100% with it and full of joy. She sings every day, every morning.
Alan Fleischmann
Wow. In her DNA, it's one of the best, it's more than a vocation, it's a life.
Renée Fleming
That's all right, she sees it as a gift from God and that she is on this earth to protect this gift.
Alan Fleischmann
That's an interesting thing to think about too. Like, it's your, you know, there's a unique lifestyle. And there is it is a bit like, calling that we think of medical doctors and scientists, which you spent so much time on your other part of your life with, I believe when you're an artist of extraordinary talent, it's also a calling. In particular, traveling as much as you do. Sustaining that kind of activity without it being a calling. I mean, this is a unique lifestyle, the demands.
I'd love you to share a little bit about that. And I'm sure there are people like her and others, including yourself, who view this as more than just a vocation, it's something much grander, much greater.
Renée Fleming
Well, it's no accident that I grew up in a musical household. And so many people who are doctors grew up as children of doctors, and so there is a connection there. But in my case, I have also seen that people become fed by the love from the audience. And it's something that you don't want to let go of, because it's a powerful experience when we can share music and I had terrible stage fright for a couple of periods of time like debilitating stage fright. And I also had somatic pain, which is what led me to Arts and Health because I was trying to figure out what is going on here. I know this isn't real because it lifts the minute I get on stage. I just suffered tremendously leading up to the performance.
What was really helpful was understanding that I wanted to perform. And if I had stopped – eople who do that don't go back on stage for 20 years sometimes. So I'm glad but you know, I'm going to play now. Every three days or four days. I switched mostly front. I don't sing opera and haven't sung opera very much. In the last since my children were old enough to have to stay in school all the time. And I love concretizing, and so I love touring. I don't really mind the travel. Do I regret and want to be at home? That's the only thing. So I'm trying to juggle it now.
Alan Fleischmann
That balance – it's not easy to do. On top of your performing career, you're a leading advocate at the intersection of music and health. What brought you into that? What prompted you to first begin that work?
Renée Fleming
I was searching to try and solve the problems that I was having. And I noticed, just with armchair reading, that scientists were studying music, and I thought that was really odd. I thought, why would they be studying music? So I went to this extraordinary dinner party when I was in Washington when I was spending a lot of time, having finally met my husband, and three justices were there. I was seated between Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg. It was the day after marriage equality had been decided. And Kennedy was there as well. And they were not terribly friendly, in the beginning of that dinner. And we know how close Scalia and RBG were.
So Dr. Francis Collins was there, who was the head of the National Institutes of Health for 12 years until recently. And I got to ask him, “Why are scientists studying music?” And he said, “Well, we have a new Brain Initiative. And we need to understand more about the most complex object in the known universe, the brain. And music, as it turns out, is a very complex activity engaging with music in particular. And it impacts every known mapped part of the brain. So we really want to learn more about that.”
Ultimately, I did an experiment with them. And I said, Well, I just started at the Kennedy Center as an advisor. And I think that the Kennedy Center could provide a platform for science with the audience, because I really think the audience will be as interested in this as I am. And so that's what we've done for the last seven years. And it's been an incredible journey. And the NIH is now funding the research, and will continue to fund the research because they said they're there.
Alan Fleischmann
I've had that conversation with you, so I know the answer is going to be yes. But do you think the advancement that we need in some of these incredibly challenging health challenges, or the specific health challenges such as, you know, strokes and Parkinson's disease, dementia, that have been helped by people through music?
Renée Fleming
Absolutely. I mean, the strongest areas of research so far are beginning with movement disorders. So and that would be Parkinson's.In movement disorders caused also by other issues, other physical issues, and these are largely under the umbrella of disorders of aging. But music research has shown that listening to rhythmic music and engaging with rhythmic music, or just rhythm in general, can help people who can't walk or move gracefully.
In fact, Mark Morris and David Leventhal founded a program called Dance for PD that, in the pandemic, spread from teaching 20 teachers at a time to 800 around the world. So they have a beautiful chapter in my book, both of them. So that's one area, mental health is an area, pain is a huge area and childhood development. And these are kind of the pillars of Arts and Health Research.
Alan Fleischmann
Very interesting, because that's such an important area that we've already mentioned mental health, and I guess, this is actually art therapy now and, and art science I would always want to call it is now being studied and applied throughout one's whole lifespan, right? It's not just as you said, the end of life, through your advocacy, with this partnership that you pulled together, you've now partnered with a whole bunch of institutions. I mentioned some in the introduction, like the Kennedy Center, the National Institutes of Health, the LA opera, the Aspen Music Festival, and others, because a little bit of those highlights for these partnerships and other partnerships, you may have not mentioned.
Renée Fleming
Absolutely, and of course, Alzheimer's, I want to definitely bring up and dementia, because people are so afraid. So I've given about 60 presentations around the world now. And I do this when I perform because I pair with local scientists and healthcare providers to learn about what they're doing in this sphere. And so that's been really exciting.
And many performing arts venue now have programs that are helpful to people. So right now, of course, the Kennedy Center, but also LA Opera. I was at Lyric Opera of Chicago for 10 years as an advisor. And I learned a great deal. By taking on that other role as opposed to just performing, I get to see what they're struggling with and what the challenges are when I think about the audience and audience development. And that's been a really fabulous opportunity for me, in terms of leadership, I know your podcast is his focus on leadership. And it's enabled me also to come up with, you know, what I see as some of the solutions, and I think Arts and Health Health is really one of them. If we think about art as a must have and not a nice to have, particularly for health and well being, then we have a different relationship with it.
Alan Fleischmann
That's right, you have an initiative called Sound Health initiative to help them and that's actually another one, I guess, is newer arts, or they think that they're the names of the initiatives that came from these partnerships, or is it something separate?
Renée Fleming
So Sound Health existed already at the Kennedy Center, and it was really the national symphony playing in the lobby of the NIH as a way of giving back to health care. And we kept the name when we started doing convenings, bringing together scientists who would share their work with the public concerts. And you know, and a lot of it is neuroscience, and some of it is actual creative arts therapies. And that's creative arts therapist, when I know the most about music therapists, they are board certified. And it's a completely different training than people who are playing in a healthcare setting. So that's a fascinating thing to learn about.
The Sound Health Network actually was created by the NCAA in response to me constantly requesting a resource center so that people could not be doing redundant research and so that the public would have a place to go to learn more about these items. And neural art is now is an initiative that was founded by Ruth Katz at the Aspen Institute, and Susan Meg Salmon, who's at Johns Hopkins. And it's a much broader umbrella. So it's every kind of aesthetic experience that we can have starting with nature with being out in nature, but also visual art therapy and architecture. And really creating a kind of an ecosystem of all of the arts that affect our health, but all evidence based, so there has to be a kind of a rigor and a scientific foundation to it.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that you're currently working on a project with National Geographic called Voice of Nature: The Anthropocene.
Renée Fleming
I'll explain a little bit about that. I love this project. So this was in the pandemic, I was kind of I felt like I was saved by being outside you know, and having just moved to Virginia from New York City, it was such a gift to be able to just constantly walk outside and tight and garden and so that kind of kept me sane. And so I created a recording in the repertoire for recording with the music director at the Met and we won a Grammy last year for this album.
I said let's take it on the road. And so I knew I wanted a film with it, you know, still kind of a media presentation to go along with it. And I I met at another dinner party. So this is my running joke to everybody. You know, just accept every dinner party invitation, because you don't know what you're gonna get from it. And this was somebody who said, I could introduce you to the CEO of NatGeo, who was based in Washington, which I didn’t even know. And we sent the message to the public about how beautiful the planet is. I’ve already sung it in maybe 15 cities.
Alan Fleischmann
This is “Leadership Matters” on Sirius XM and on leadershipmattersshow.com. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. And we're with Renée Fleming, the acclaimed opera soprano, singer, advocate and author of music in mind, harnessing the arts for health and wellness. And we are discussing her journey, her life, how she's become such a leading force, both in voice and in advocacy. For those who can be lifted through music and the arts. Let's dive into your new anthology published just last month. And tell us a little bit about what inspired you to assemble this collection of essays for your latest book. And how's it being received?
Renée Fleming
Well, I did a webinar during the pandemic, also about the kind of music in mind. And it was so successful, we had 700,000 viewers from 70 different countries. I think that, you know, a few years later, I thought, you know, I'd like to, I was actually inspired by David Rubenstein, because I interviewed him at the 92nd Street Y about his first anthology on leadership that he wrote based on interviews he had already had, and I thought, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm going to do the same thing. I'm going to create an anthology, inviting some of the top scientists and researchers and artists and therapists to share the breadth of this field with the public. And, of course, I had no idea what I was getting into, and it's taken almost three years. But I'm really proud of it. That I did it. And it's something that people can kind of pick up because it's so comprehensive and read about subjects that interest them, you know, there's childhood development and education, but also Yo Yo Ma and Rosanne Cash. Esperanza Spalding and Rhiannon Giddens. So many artists have written beautiful chapters as well.
Alan Fleischmann
Did you have a certain audience in mind when you wrote the book? Are there training communities you were trying to reach? Or is it really to kind of let people know that there's music that can apply and be applied in your life in so many different ways?
Renée Fleming
I think it was the audience because there's also architecture and theater in it. And dance, I think it was really to sort of say, these are, we're kind of at the beginning of the health care applications of these artistic interventions. But I do believe ultimately, we're going to be in healthcare, across the board, because the benefits are just becoming clearer and clearer now that we can measure because of technology. It's the fMRI, the EEG, these various ways of measuring are making a huge difference. And the Kennedy Center and Carnegie Hall have great chapters as well. But I think it's for the general public, but it's the music loving public, the medicine loving public in the medical field as well. Academia there, which is kind of broad, is a broad swath of people who might be interested in at least some of the chapters in the book.
Alan Fleischmann
Tell us a little bit about Francis Collins, you mentioned that you met him years ago. He's a mutual friend. He's an extraordinary force. And you got Yo-Yo Ma. Tell us a little bit about how they came together to be involved. And are there others that you want to mention as well?
Renée Fleming
Well, Francis Collins has been an integral part of this, he certainly was leading the charge at the NIH. And, and now that they funded $40 million dollars in research for Music and Medicine. And they'll continue I think, because integrative medicine, and also aging and mental health are strong initiatives, I think, and that can benefit from this kind of work. So he's, he's really been gung ho about it. But that's an exciting development. And he's, you know, anything we do together, we have to perform together because he brings his guitar. So that dinner party I mentioned because he had his guitar that night, and we were able to sing together, everybody relaxed and had a wonderful time starting out. So you know, I think I think our politicians could take a lesson from that, you know, if they started every session by singing together, things might be a little better.
Alan Fleischmann
So true. And what about Yo-Yo Ma?
Renée Fleming
Oh Yo-Yo, he's a fabulous humanitarian. He's been a wonderful example to me of how an artist can use their platform to do good in the world. So I was I was delighted that he agreed to write a chapter in his chapter really connects indigenous culture and the planet you know. He's also, of course, concerned about climate, and wants to draw attention really to sustainable practices that were there for millennia before we shut up and on in the US, for instance.
Alan Fleischmann
What are some of the lessons that the readers of the book can expect to learn from Music and Mind?
Renée Fleming
Oh, gosh, it's really broad. I mean, I think what institutions can do so it's the Kennedy Center's chapter is fantastic. But we also have chapters from MIT and from the Neuroarts blueprint, and from Dan Levitan, who does one on brain mapping and on the neuroanatomy of the brain.
But the first chapter by Annie Patel, who's at Tufts, I think, is really important because it's about evolution. And it ties us to this and explains why it's in our DNA and how it's such. It's so ancient, this our engagement with the arts, in fact, we don't evolve very quickly. And so these things haven't gone away. And we desperately need to engage in more activities that promote social cohesion. And this is one way of doing it. I mean, women who are suffering right now from postpartum depression, for instance, there was a study just done that said that if they just joined a wire, the more depressed they are, the better their symptoms are. So they improved tremendously. There are just certain things that surprised me. You know, there's a fabulous Jacqueline Kolinsky in the Midwest, who studies cardiac failure. And she just out of the blue met some musicians and decided to try a study on singing. And it improved vascular function, so much so that she's gotten $5 million in funding from the NIH. Wow,
Alan Fleischmann
That's amazing. I'm always so impressed. We talked about that a little bit earlier, but with just how much you are able to accomplish with your schedule? And how you know, how you manage to, to be in all parts of, you know, important parts of the globe, I feel like, and you're always in demand, you're always on the go. Is there a secret to this? And how do you actually maintain your stamina? Is there a secret you use to kind of not get overwhelmed? Or does it just give you a certain thrill that you know, you're, you're on the move, and you're moving like an athlete, you're an athlete? Or is it more than that?
Renée Fleming
Well, I think you know, there, I have very energetic friends. So I'm not the only one who gets a lot done. But I think resilience is incredibly important, because even when I'm really tired, or I just think, well, I've taken on too much. It takes me about 24 hours to come back and bounce back. I mean, you do a lot too Alan, I mean, we all travel for work. But I find that as I said that I enjoy traveling, but balancing it is tricky.
I founded the Neuroarts Blueprint Ideals on January 1. Susan Meg Salmon and Ivy Ross wrote a very popular book last year called your brain on RT, it's still selling very well. And so come January 1, I said, Okay, I'm not getting sucked into this, this year is going to be hard. I'm going to read the news. But otherwise, I'm every day, I'm going to have some arts practice that makes me happy and fulfilled. And I, it works. I go to museums where I travel, I go to performances, I reading novels again, and I haven't done that in a while. And I'm just I'm also making sure I get outside every day and take those walks and do that tree hugging and all of that. And I'm a much happier person I have to say.
Alan Fleischmann
Amazing, you know, when you look at your early years, and then look at now is your ease in the light of the challenges. Obviously, the demand for you is so high and picking where and when you go. But you do describe your efforts to conquer sinking, singing. When you think about your early years, tell us a little bit about how you conquered singing? And how can your listeners apply a similar mindset to their own endeavors?
Renée Fleming
It's funny somebody I had. I gave a talk last night and somebody raised her hand and said that she was a runner. And she in the worst parts of her running, was thinking about music and raising her arms and doing various activities and trying to sort out and process how to run better. And I said you know what, that's exactly what we have to do as singers in order to train and develop our voices. because most of the muscles we use are involuntary. So it's not like a pianist who can see their hand position where the our instrument is inside of our bodies, and we can't actively control it, the only thing we can control are the external abdominal wall muscles that really create a breathing technique.
That's mainly it. And, and then thinking a lot about releasing tension. And we can do head position, we can do job, you know, a tongue tension, hip position, etc. So there are a lot of different elements of learning how to sing. And so it takes a long time. It took me about 10 years before I had real confidence on stage because what we do is so virtuosic, you know, it's it's the complete range of the human voice, but with with perfection and with style, and we're competing with people who have been singing the same music for two and sometimes 300 years.
Alan Fleischmann
You find yourself feeling vulnerable, because your instrument is inside. You know, when people have colds, and I'm sure, and separate from the pandemic, everybody felt vulnerable. And I'm sure you especially, you know, either other things you do to have caution that you won't do out of caution.
Renée Fleming
Oh, well, this month, I'm not eating in restaurants, I'm just not, because I'm singing at the Met in “The Hours,” which is an incredibly beautiful new piece. If anybody can get to New York and see it. It's until we're performing until the end of the month. And I'm very careful about trying not to get sick. But I can't speak over noise. I just, that's the problem with the restaurant. They're also loud. So that's the main thing. And staying hydrated. Try to get enough sleep. So living moderately, and in protecting your voice.
Alan Fleischmann
Any tips on airplanes.
Renée Fleming
Not really. If I hear somebody cough or sneeze, I always have a mask in my bag now and I put it on, you know, it's so close to me. So you can tell if somebody just has a random cough? Or if they're sick. So that's that it? I try not to be neurotic – I live a normal life. If you've done what I do. And you have raised children at the same time, you can't be neurotic.
Alan Fleischmann
And you can't you can't plan on when they're gonna get it or not get it, too. Are there certain principles that have guided your leadership and commitment to helping others? Because I think if of you as one of the most generous people, obviously, through your the work you do, but it's also through the arts. And it's also how you just I've just seen you around the dining room table. You're so committed to bringing people together. And I would argue in your case, uncommon tables, you bring people together who are maybe like minded in values, but not necessarily similar in the experience. And I think that makes you so special. Are there certain principles that guide you?
Renée Fleming
You do the same thing, honestly. But I would say that I'm just really curious. I love meeting people from other walks of life. And as a leader in my field, there are two things I think that I brought to the table. One is that I don't adhere to convention, I've made a lot of choices that were not the norm for my path, and took a lot of flack for it. And in the end, I think I actually did the right thing. But the other thing is the Mile High view. As a consultant, I come in and I see things that people on the ground don't see and make suggestions that, you know, have actually been very successful for the companies that I've worked with. I'm terrible at it with my own career, because I'm micromanaging the day to day. So that's one thing I've learned about leadership is it really helps to have some separation.
Alan Fleischmann
That's amazing. You've been a mentor, you are a mentor, who are your role models? Are there any mentors? You know that you've turned to I guess what you'd say in recent years? Are there people I mean, I guess, in some ways, the scientists and the leading folks and in medicine, advocacy have been wonderful mentors to you as you've become such a leader in that space, but other other other mentors to other mentors like that you want to mention, are there other other mentors as well?
Renée Fleming
Or there aren't really mentors anymore, Alan, because I'm too old now to have mentors. You know, I'm the mentor at this point. In fact, Diana Krall and I had this conversation. She was so unhappy when her longtime producer passed away, and she said, What am I going to do now? And I said, Well, honestly at a certain point where we're the ones who are guiding the next generation and the generation after that, so we're the leaders and you But what I do have in Arts and Health are incredible partners. And I'm not an I'm not a scientist, I'm not an expert. I'm just a passionate advocate.
Alan Fleischmann
That's pretty cool. What advice do you have for young leaders who are in their own sectors whose what you've done is you've actually shown how you can have a very rich life crossing sectors and crossing areas that are, and you become the, you know, the best and finest in your craft. But you've also managed to bring that same determination and skill to other crafts as well. For those who are listeners here, these are people who want to be multitaskers. They're people who are advancing in their careers, they don't necessarily have to be the lead person, but they want to lead. And I'm just curious what advice you'd give them?
Renée Fleming
What I tell young artists is that unlike when I was young, we care about what you think we want to know what your opinion is, in fact, you can build an audience through social media by caring about other things by finding your own platforms. And so it's a very different time. Now, you know, whereas I had a whole music business machine behind me, I had the record company and publicist and, you know, multiple businesses because this is when really the business of music was much more powerful. And it's faded away as the money is fading away.
Now, it's really kind of the self, you have to be a self starter, and you have to, to, to develop relationships with your audience and, and think out of the box and also create your own projects. So it's kind of a more creative time for artists, it's harder in some ways and freer in other
Alan Fleischmann
It social media a friend or foe?
Renée Fleming
Well, I have someone who does it with me, so I don't engage with it all the time, myself, I just don't have time. And and, and I do think you kind of don't want too much. You don't want to bombard people all the time. So I think it depends on how you use it. It's a friend if you use it wisely. You know, we often advise young people to be very careful about what you put on social media, and remember that your audience is brighter than you think. And you want to maintain that. And so yeah, so it's it's it as I said, it didn't exist for a lot of my career.
Alan Fleischmann
And it's really disrupting. You're disrupting it now.
Renée Fleming
Yeah, I don't think so. I think I have a fan base and I am reaching out to them and I'm grateful for them. And that's kind of really what social media is designed for, as an artist.
Alan Fleischmann
Is there a mountain you haven't climbed? Is or is there an area of being you know, a musician and artist and singer that you're you haven't done yet, but you want to do?
Renée Fleming
Well right now I'm trying to finish an album that I started some years ago and it's it's really kind of interesting, because it was I started it in the period when roots music and Americana was a really was on the scene, and was featured in some major films, like Oh Brother, Where Art – that was was the one that really inspired me. And I always loved folk music. I was a Joni Mitchell fanatic as a young person. And so I'm hoping to finish that soon. And that'll be something incredibly different from when anybody's heard for me yet. But mainly, you know, honestly, I want to tour my National Geographic project for the next year. And then after that, we'll see.
Alan Fleischmann
That's cool. And is there a performer who you want to sing with?
Renée Fleming
Uh, oh, gosh, I love collaborating. I always love collaborating, so no one in particular, but I'm always open.
Alan Fleischmann
That's very exciting. And it is for those artists who are looking at you as a great role model or for those who may never be great, famous artists, but they love music. How would you encourage them I guess to stay involved? And music and how important is it not just for mental health and for their physical health and for the health and wellness of others around them? But is there a certain aspect of music in the arts that you encourage people who may not be as talented as you know as you are and other extraordinary artists with whom you perform?
Renée Fleming
What I tell young artists now because when I get masterclasses or when I give classes around the country, I'll say how many of you will have debt when you graduate? And of course almost everyone raises their hand. And I know that most of them will never make it in their chosen field. There are just the numbers of people who want to do it and the numbers of people who can actually earn a living performing. They are nowhere near each other.
So I'm tell them now I know many of you in the past have been able to teach or have been able to go into arts administration. But please add health care to your thinking because there aren't nearly enough therapists. And California, for instance, now has more than a billion dollars to put towards arts, education, and public schools, and they don't have any teachers. Because people have kind of moved away from it thinking there weren't arts in schools. In fact, one of the chapters in the book is a great chapter with the real statistics on the state of arts education in our schools, music education, in particular by Ken Albus, who's at the University of Maryland. So it's better to know you know, and then to just guess or complain, but right now we have a shortage of both arts therapists and teachers.
Alan Fleischmann
So we need more and more just having people out there and as voice coaches, therapists, teachers, mentors, as well, I do want to do a quick shout out about your husband, Tim, who is an amazing guy. And one of my most fabulous memories is from a few months ago, when you were honored with the Kennedy Center Honors, and, you know, as joyful as I saw you because I get to be at this a little bit away from you, but I could watch you throughout. One of the great joys was not just seeing you just relishing the moment of seeing all these extraordinary people celebrating music and your honor, and looking at all these people that you have had such a great impact on but to watch your husband going every minute of it and, and to see how joyful he was to see it as well.
Renée Fleming
I agree he is wonderful and so excited when things like that happen for me. And that was the pinnacle. Honestly, you can't beat the Kennedy Center Honors. And I loved every second of my segment, you know, we're surprised we don't know what they're going to do. It's a surprise. And I, you know, I would give them lists of friends and young artists that we admire and thinking maybe one person will be able to come. And they all did, they were all on stage. My voice gets higher. Every time we talk about it, I get very excited. So I'm so glad you were there and shared it with us.
Alan Fleischmann
It was such a special night that I'll never forget. And it just just reaffirmed all the things in life that we care about, and celebrating talent and skill and, and music and community and it was just so beautiful. I know that we've hit our full hour. I knew we needed more time. You've been listening to “Leadership Matters” on Sirius XM, and we've had the most extraordinary hour with a great friend, a great hero, I would argue an author, I really I urge everyone to go out and buy Music and Mind: Harnessing the Arts for Health and Wellness, a book that we all should be reading and we need to be reading but also to celebrate what makes us all come together in music and song. There's no better leader than you are, Renée Fleming, I am just so glad we spent this hour together.
Renée Fleming
Thank you so much, Alan. Lots of love. Hope to see you really soon.