Rolf Dobelli
Founder, WORLD.MINDS
“If we can understand something, we can change it – and make it better.”
Summary
This week on Leadership Matters, Alan was joined by an esteemed author, entrepreneur, and philosopher known for his profound insights into cognitive behavior and decision-making. Rolf Dobelli is the founder of WORLD.MINDS, a nonprofit that builds bridges between science, business, and culture. With a diverse background spanning broadcast and print media, as well as the airline industry, Rolf has cultivated a unique perspective on leadership, curiosity, and clarity in complex times.
Rolf is also an international bestselling author, with works such as The Art of Thinking Clearly and The Art of the Good Life, which have topped bestseller lists worldwide. Throughout their fascinating conversation, Alan and Rolf dove into his early life and influences, inspiring career journey, and the powerful leadership lessons he’s learned along the way.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
Guest Bio
Rolf Dobelli (born in 1966) received his MBA and PhD in philosophy from the University of St. Gallen, Switzerland. He is a serial entrepreneur, thinker and writer. He co-founded getAbstract. He also founded WORLD.MINDS, a community of some of the world’s most distinguished thinkers, scientists, artists and entrepreneurs, including Nobel prize winner Joe Stiglitz, Matt Ridley (The Rational Optimist), Henry Kissinger, historian Niall Ferguson, philosopher Daniel Dennett, Henry Kravis, General David Petraeus and many others. He regularly writes for Europe’s most esteemed newspapers, including Germany’s Die Zeit, FAZ („Germany’s New York Times“), NZZ, Die WELT, and Switzerland’s Sonntagszeitung. From 2003 until 2008, Dobelli hosted a weekly television show about books and business topics on Bloomberg Television Germany. He has been quoted in The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, POLICITO, Financial Times, Harvard Management Update and many other U.S. and European business publications.
Dobelli is best known as the author of The Art of Thinking Clearly, an instant success which spent 30 weeks in the number one spot on Germany’s Der Spiegel bestseller list and was the most popular non-fiction book for the entire 2012. He is also known for his book The Art of the Good Life, which was the most sold non-fiction book in Japan by a non-Japanese author in 2019. His books have reached the bestseller lists in Germany, the U.K., the Netherlands, Ireland, India, Korea, Japan, Singapore and Hong Kong. Dobelli is member of edge.org, The Royal Society of Arts and PEN and serves on the boards of The Stern Stewart Institute and of the Swiss-American Chamber of Commerce. Besides the non-fiction works, he has written seven novels published by Diogenes. Critics and readers praise Dobelli as “a new voice in German fiction” and one of the few fiction writers who thoroughly understands the business world, from both an academic and a practical point of view. Rolf Dobelli does not consume news, with the exception of the magazines The New Yorker, Foreign Affairs, Science and Nature — hence his book Stop Reading the News.
Episode Transcript
Alan Fleischmann
I’m joined today by an esteemed leader, author, entrepreneur, and philosopher—someone who is known for his profound insights on cognitive behavior and decision-making. Rolf Dobelli is the founder of World Minds, a global nonprofit that he established to create a bridge between the sciences, business, cultural communities, and beyond. He also has a wide array of experiences working in broadcast, print media, and the airline industry. Rolf is the international author of two extraordinary books in particular, and they’ve been bestsellers in Germany, the UK, the Netherlands, Ireland, India, Korea, Japan, Singapore, and Hong Kong. I’ve got copies everywhere. These include his most well-known books, The Art of Thinking Clearly and The Art of the Good Life. I’m excited to have Rolf on the show today. I’ve wanted him for a while to discuss his early life, his influences, garner a little bit of his wisdom, and talk about his fascinating career journey and the lessons in leadership he has learned along the way. Rolf, welcome to Leadership Matters. I am so, so happy to have you on.
Rolf Dobelli
It’s so great to be here. Thanks for inviting me, Alan.
Alan Fleischmann
Let’s start with your life—the early years, the early life. You were born and raised in Switzerland. Tell us a little bit about your childhood: what life was like around the home, what did your parents do, any brothers or sisters, and anything else that would be special. And I’m sure there are many things that were special about the place where you grew up.
Rolf Dobelli
I actually had a very, very normal, bland, boring childhood. I was born into a middle-class family. My mother was looking after the kids—I have one sister. My dad was selling yarns, nylon, and polyester in Europe and around the world, so he was in sales. But neither of my parents were intellectuals or academics; I was the first one to go to university from our home. But it was a very loving childhood, very great parents, safe neighborhood—so that’s how I grew up in a very, very, you know, it could be somewhere in Wisconsin, rural Wisconsin, where everything is safe and happy and good. That’s what my childhood was like. And I still feel I have a home; I could always go back there, even if I venture out to the world and do crazy things. But I always have this feeling of having a home in my heart, and that’s where I grew up with the family—in Lucerne, Switzerland. It’s a kind of a tourist spot, a beautiful, beautiful town with a lake, mountains, and lots of tourists nowadays. But in the early days, there were barely any tourists.
Alan Fleischmann
I have family a little bit in Meggen, Switzerland, which is right over the lake from Lucerne. I think it must be the same area.
Rolf Dobelli
Yes, same area, it’s a beautiful area.
Alan Fleischmann
It sounds like it’s still a very grounding place for you to go back to when you want to bring peaceful thoughts into your mind and reflect and move forward.
Rolf Dobelli
Absolutely. I think it’s valuable to have one of those home places that you know you can always go back to. It was safe, and it’s still safe, with good people, good neighbors, and good friends. I think it’s valuable to have that sense of security, even if you go out to different, more challenging environments. It’s good to have that grounding.
Alan Fleischmann
Were there any mentors along the way? The fact that you were the first to go to university—I know you went to the University of St. Gallen—were there any mentors or teachers who enlightened you a bit on the journey?
Rolf Dobelli
Yes, of course. I had a very influential French teacher for seven years. Our high school lasts seven years, so he was my French teacher throughout, and he gave me a sense of not dwelling too much on mistakes. He taught us to analyze our mistakes once and move on—not to live in the past. He also encouraged us not to take things personally, but just to carry on. So he gave me that sense of moving forward and focusing on the future, which had a big impact on me.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s amazing. Is he still around today?
Rolf Dobelli
No, unfortunately, he passed away about four years ago.
Alan Fleischmann
It’s inspiring to hear about mentors like that. When you’re the first generation to go to university, there’s often someone who opens the window, sees something special in you, and encourages that curiosity.
Rolf Dobelli
Well, I don’t think I was anything special; he just had this ability to touch everyone in his class. I still keep in touch with some high school friends, and he impacted all of us. He was a genius, really. He also gave us a deep sense of culture—why it’s important to know culture, to understand history, and where we come from. He grounded us in history: the Roman Empire, the French Revolution, the Middle Ages. I still cherish that today. Maybe it’s a European thing. The U.S. is such a young nation; you might not need that grounding.
Alan Fleischmann
Actually, I think we might! I think we need more of that in our history lessons. Many people in the U.S. are realizing that we need to better teach young people about civics and the specialness of community and citizenship. Tell us a bit about your time at the University of St. Gallen. You studied business and philosophy, which is a fascinating combination. In Switzerland, you have to choose your focus from the start, unlike in the U.S., where students often decide later. What led you to choose that focus?
Rolf Dobelli
Yeah, so that was a classic decision mistake on my part. I wanted to study physics originally and become a theoretical physicist. I loved natural sciences, and I was good at it—it was my passion. But for some reason, I ended up in business school. As you said, you have to decide early on and then just go all the way through. So I went to business school. It lasted four years, and I was bored to tears. It was the most wasteful four years of my life. Business school, really—come on, you can learn that in six months. Whatever you need to know in terms of accounting, sales, or maybe a bit of leadership, you can pick up quickly. But you can’t really teach leadership in business school; you learn it by having a really good boss you can emulate, or a really bad boss, so you learn what not to do. So business school could’ve been condensed. I was bored, but luckily I picked up philosophy, which was fascinating and really carried me through. I even did a PhD in philosophy, which I still cherish to this day. I had to read all these works, from the Stoics to modern and postmodern philosophy.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s incredible. You’ve managed to build intersections between great thinking and life lessons, bringing wisdom from the past into the future for business and society. I’d love to hear more about that. How did you decide to continue with a PhD? Did you want to teach at some point, or was it really just the enjoyment of the subject?
Rolf Dobelli
I genuinely loved the topic of philosophy. I loved reading these books and thinking along the lines of what I’d read. Maybe I could even discover something new or think a thought that hadn’t been thought before. I was fascinated by it, and doing a PhD allowed me to spend the time going deep. I figured in the future, I’d probably never have that level of time to focus on one subject as intensely as you can in a PhD program. It was worthwhile—I enjoyed it. I wish I could dedicate a few years now to really dive into one thing, but life is different.
Alan Fleischmann
Would you recommend that for young people? If they have the luxury of going deep in their early 20s, would you advise it?
Rolf Dobelli
Only if you really have the passion—and the competence. If you have the skills and drive to do it, then yes. But if you’re mediocre or just doing it to kill time, then no, get a job. Go work somewhere. But if you truly have the passion and the skills, then I’d recommend at least looking into it.
Alan Fleischmann
Great. Then you graduated with a PhD, but you chose not to go the academic route. That’s an interesting decision. You ended up at Swissair, right?
Rolf Dobelli
Yes, that was actually a fun decision. Swissair, the airline at that time, was more than just an airline. They had the airline itself but also a lot of businesses around it—catering, hotels, duty-free. Those other businesses were much bigger and more profitable than the airline itself. The airline was barely profitable, but all those other ventures did extremely well. So, Swissair brought in McKinsey for a usual cost-cutting exercise, which you do every three or four years in a corporation. The CEO thought McKinsey was too expensive and decided to pick two or three guys from university, have McKinsey train us, and then send us out around the world to do the cost-cutting. I applied and got selected—two people from the business school were chosen. So McKinsey taught us how to do these cost-cutting exercises, and they sent us all over the world to hotels and catering operations, cutting costs. I was the guy people were not looking forward to seeing, the “arrogant little guy” who came to cut costs. But I did the job, learned a lot about the cost structures of various businesses, and had a great time because working for an airline meant flying for free. As a 25 or 26-year-old, I could fly from Zurich to New York for dinner and back for five bucks, as long as seats were available. You could even sit in the cockpit jump seat. I flew around the world on weekends, just hopping on airplanes. It was a blast, and of course, I learned a lot on the business side.
Alan Fleischmann
My early experience was similar. I started at Chase Manhattan, where they were working with McKinsey on a cost-cutting exercise. They had to lay off people and eventually decided they couldn’t afford McKinsey anymore. I had just graduated, and they asked me to lead a cost-cutting and restructuring effort across Latin America, which I accepted, even though I had no experience. I suddenly found myself leading a team of 37 people across Latin America, which reshaped Chase’s focus there. It was one of the most important learning experiences of my life.
Rolf Dobelli
Exactly. We had no idea when we walked into these places, but eventually, you pick it up. It’s not that hard.
Alan Fleischmann
Asking the right questions is key, which is a big part of your journey—asking the right questions instead of assuming you know the answers. You must have made an impression at Swissair, as you rose quickly. Tell us about the other roles you took on there.
Rolf Dobelli
Sure. Within Swissair, I moved up fairly quickly. One big step was becoming CFO of a duty-free organization in Australia—the largest duty-free operation we had, with over 100 shops across Australia. That was a great experience: CFO at the age of 27, although I had no clue what I was doing at first. I think they put me there because they wanted a Swiss guy they could trust. Later, I was CFO for a project in Hong Kong when we won the license to manage duty-free at the new airport. I also served as CEO of a different project in Fort Lauderdale, which got me to the U.S. Swissair had contracts to run shops on cruise ships, selling T-shirts, cups, and other items. It was challenging because employees were constantly stealing, and we had little control. I recommended we sell the operation, which we did, and that was the moment I decided to leave.
At that point, I had this idea for a publishing company called GetAbstract. The idea was to create summaries of business books, as most managers don’t have time to read full-length leadership or marketing books. Why not create five-page summaries and sell them to CEOs and corporations? That’s the business I wanted to start, so I founded GetAbstract in Fort Lauderdale, in Aventura, between Fort Lauderdale and Miami. It turned out to be a great success.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s so cool. I have an insatiable hunger for books like that—the self-help and leadership books, the insightful ones that help people lean in, transform their journeys, and learn from others. You identified a real need and saw there was an appetite for distilling that knowledge. Time is such a precious commodity.
Rolf Dobelli
Absolutely. In every good book, there’s always one or two ideas you can pick up. You might not get 15 ideas, but there’s at least one good one that could change your life or some part of it. That’s what I wanted—to have this in a compressed way. So we ended up summarizing 30,000 books, creating a huge library of condensed knowledge. Today, with tools like ChatGPT, you could generate summaries without needing writers. But back then, it was a big step, and I think it was very helpful to CEOs and leaders around the world.
Alan Fleischmann
This was pre-digital, so you provided this content in books, videos, and articles, right?
Rolf Dobelli
Yes, exactly. The content was a five-page PDF.
Alan Fleischmann
And was the business headquartered in Florida?
Rolf Dobelli
Yes, we started in Aventura, Florida, and later opened a second headquarters in Switzerland. Being in the U.S. was a huge influence. During my time at Swissair, I realized the U.S. was such a unique place. I remember my first landing in Chicago with Swissair, and staying at a Swiss hotel there. I noticed right away that this country had a different vibrancy than Europe, and I loved it. I wanted to soak up that energy and spirit. Even now, back in Switzerland with World Minds, that American spirit of “can-do” and just reaching out to people is something that will stay with me for life.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s amazing. You probably felt like you’d found an intellectual and entrepreneurial home—the idea that you can see something and seek it out. So how long did you lead GetAbstract? How did you scale it, and what was the eventual outcome?
Rolf Dobelli
I exited about 10 years ago because I wanted to focus on something else: World Minds, which we’ll discuss soon. World Minds started as a side project but kept growing, and I eventually thought, instead of summarizing business books, why not be in the minds of not only business leaders and thinkers, but scientists too? That felt like an even richer environment. So I sold my shares in GetAbstract and then went full speed into World Minds. Parallel to that, I thought, “You know what? These people writing business books—I can do that too!”
Alan Fleischmann
And you had a television show, right? It was very successful in Switzerland, and you had a weekly column as well. Is that where The Art of Thinking Clearly came from? You realized, “Why not me?”
Rolf Dobelli
Exactly. Bloomberg TV Germany in Frankfurt reached out, having heard about the business book idea. They asked me to come on and talk about the three most important books I’d read recently. I agreed, and they loved it. It turned into a weekly show that ran for six years on Bloomberg TV, where I discussed business books. It was a fantastic experience. But after reading and summarizing so many books and talking about them on TV, I thought, “Hey, I can do this too.” I’d always been interested in biases, heuristics, and decision-making errors, so I started writing a column about it, which eventually turned into The Art of Thinking Clearly. Luckily, it became a successful book.
Alan Fleischmann
I love your books. I should say it, as I said earlier, The Art of the Good Life—I have it right here—and The Art of Thinking Clearly. Both books actually, you nail it in the sense of both informing and inspiring and then sharing insights at the same time. And you do that with World Minds, which you created. And what I’m blown away by about World Minds is the collection of people. Some of them are the most extraordinary leaders who’ve accomplished so much and are doing it quietly; if you don’t know them, they’re doing meaningful things. And then you’ve got the scientists who are driven by discovery and by big questions, and you’re bringing together people who are seeking, if not already finding, answers to those questions. We mentioned Henry Kravis before we got on the call. There are some people in your orbit, of the highest caliber, who are the greatest examples of building, scaling, thinking big, and using their curiosity for good. Tell us a little bit about your mission there, because there’s a real mission. You’re a great convener, and you’ve figured out a way to do this in a way that maximizes people’s time and impact.
Rolf Dobelli
So World Minds started off as kind of an overnight idea. I realized that my friends in leadership positions in business—the CEOs, the chairmen, the board members—they didn’t really know what was coming out of science, what was coming out of the labs. My background, wanting to study physics, helped me stay connected to the science world. So, I rented a bar in Zurich, Switzerland, near the main shopping street. I told the barman, “Look, this afternoon and evening, don’t let anyone else in. I’ll come with about 40 people. I’ll bring enough revenue to cover the night.” So he trusted me. I was surprised, but he did. I rented the bar, invited 20 CEOs and 20 scientists—from Nobel Prize winners to young stars—and asked the scientists to simply tell us the coolest stuff they were working on. That was the brief, nothing else. It was such a beautiful evening, and people came up to me asking, “Hey, Rolf, when are you going to do the next one?” So I said, “You want to do another one? Happy to do it.” One guy, who’s now the chairman of the World Minds Foundation board, gave me $10,000 and said, “Look, the wine tonight was really cheap. Here’s 10,000 bucks; make sure we have decent wine next time.” So, we did another one, and then we were 80 people. By the third time, 120 people, and it grew from there. Now we’re around 1,500 people, and it feels like a family. We meet three or four times a year for physical events—big symposia, mid-sized gatherings—and then some community members host us for dinners at their homes. For example, Bill Ackman recently hosted us in his penthouse with his wife, Neri Oxman, who’s been part of World Minds for about 15 years.
We also have a weekly espresso call, a 30-minute Zoom call, where around 30 or 40 people join. I ask one person from our community to be the Q&A guest so they can field questions. It’s under Chatham House Rule, so people feel free to speak openly. You always walk away with new insights, fresh perspectives on life, or unique ways of understanding how the world works. And we have some incredible people, from Bill Gates to Henry Kravis, Ray Dalio, Nobel laureates, generals—David Petraeus is on our board and is a regular on World Minds Express, our weekly Zoom call. It’s amazing to talk with these people and pick their brains.
Alan Fleischmann
As someone who’s part of it and so grateful to be part of it, I have to say, I get involved in so many different gatherings and convenings, and World Minds is the most meaningful. There’s a unique tone you set. There’s confidence to speak up and share thoughts, but there’s also a humility in the way people express themselves and interact. Every time you bring people together, that tone endures. It’s something very special, and it brings out people’s humility and confidence, which is something we all look for.
Rolf Dobelli
Thank you so much for that nice comment, Alan.
Alan Fleischmann
It’s amazing. And I think it goes back to your ability to inspire people to come together. Then, through your books, you share your insights and others’ learnings with the world. Tell us a little bit about the books, because I think your books are evergreen. They’re not just something you read once and move on from—you revisit them. The Art of Thinking Clearly, for example, you can keep rereading it. Both books get at the idea of maximizing the time we have on this earth and bringing out the best in ourselves, like you do with World Minds. Tell us a little bit about the books.
Rolf Dobelli
Sure, The Art of Thinking Clearly started as a column I had in a few German and Swiss newspapers, and it eventually turned into a book. I wanted to create an encyclopedia of the systematic decision errors we all fall into. When I began, I had no idea just how many systematic thinking errors there were. The research was out there—people like Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky had done groundbreaking work in psychology—but no one had put it together in a way that was accessible to everyday readers. So, I first wrote it for myself to help me avoid these traps in business and investing. But I realized that others wanted it too, hence the column, and eventually the book.
It’s not that I did the original research—I simply collected it and formatted it so that people could easily digest it. The book has short chapters on the 100 most significant decision errors, from overconfidence to social proof. Even I fall into these traps occasionally, even though I wrote the book. So, it’s helpful to revisit and refresh these concepts, keeping examples in mind so you don’t keep making the same mistakes.
Alan Fleischmann
Tell us about the other two books as well. Stop Reading the News is another powerful one.
Rolf Dobelli
So then there’s another one, The Art of the Good Life, which comes from my philosophy background. When I studied philosophy, the Stoics really resonated with me. Stoicism is a school of philosophy that started around 300 BC and lasted for about 500 years. The Stoics were, and I would say still are, some of the most practical philosophers. Up until about 200 years ago, philosophy’s main purpose was to give you advice on how to lead a good life. There’s some discussion of how the world works, metaphysics, logic, but mostly, philosophy was about how to lead a good life. Nowadays, if you ask a philosophy professor for advice on that, they’ll send you to a shrink. Philosophy doesn’t focus on the good life anymore, but originally, it was very much centered on that. And the Stoics nailed it with their insights. Not everything they taught still applies, but they really understood the core of it. The Stoic mindset doesn’t mean being grim and emotionless. Stoics were actually quite joyful people; they just had control over their downside emotions—envy, self-pity, and so on. They managed the negative emotions but allowed positive emotions to flow, so, overall, they were very joyful, happy people.
Alan Fleischmann
I mean, I had dinner the other night in DC, and afterward, I walked across the street to a little bookshop I hadn’t been in for years. I went upstairs to the philosophy section, picked up a couple of books on the Stoics, and just sat there, reading and feeling incredibly inspired. I bought a few, and I’m carrying them with me now. What you’re saying is amazing because there’s something humbling about reading thoughts that have been around for so long, yet remain so powerful. Your book really shares this with readers; it offers a wisdom that’s deeply connected to humanity. Tell me about Stop Reading the News—that seemed unexpected at first. When I heard the title, I thought, “But you’re someone who leans in to know everything!” But there’s a message there about mental serenity and prioritizing. Tell us more about that.
Rolf Dobelli
Yeah, it definitely made a lot of friends in the journalism community, Stop Reading the News did. The idea actually started from a test I did about 13 or 14 years ago, where I decided not to consume any newspapers, TV, internet news, or media for 30 days. It was such a mentally cleansing experience that I kept doing it and ended up going 12 years without reading the news. Eventually, I wrote a book about it because people think that if you stop reading the news, you’ll miss all the big events in the world. That’s not true. If something truly significant happens, you’ll hear about it. Most news is just noise, but people consume it thinking it gives them some kind of competitive edge, and it doesn’t. To gain a real understanding, you need depth—either by reading a full book, long-form articles, or speaking with experts. World Minds allows me to do that, which gives a much clearer view of the world. News creates an illusion of understanding, but it doesn’t provide a deep grasp of things like how Russia operates, or the dynamics in China, or major industries. Instead, I wanted to help people avoid the trap of thinking that constant news consumption leads to genuine understanding. It doesn’t.
Alan Fleischmann
It’s also about focusing on what not to do, not just what to do. It’s like you’re not saying to turn things off, but rather, to turn things on differently.
Rolf Dobelli
Exactly. If I could do another shameless plug, I have a book coming out in January called The Not-To-Do List. It’s already out in German, but it’ll be in English soon. People always think to live better, you have to add things to your life: running 15 miles a day, taking more vitamins, meditating for half an hour, and so on. But I think if you work on removing the bad stuff—the downside—the upside will take care of itself. My philosophy is to focus on eliminating the negative, like toxic emotions or bad behaviors, and the positives will naturally emerge. That’s why I call it The Not-To-Do List: what can you delete from your life to make it better?
Alan Fleischmann
Are there things everyone could focus on to make life more impactful and easier? Many people feel the need to say “yes” to everything, read everything, and know everything. But what you’re suggesting is to truly focus on a few things that matter and eliminate distractions. What about specific behaviors you recommend? I know you take a weekly “Sabbath” from tech.
Rolf Dobelli
Yes, definitely. One big piece is being able to say “no”—to have a hard “no.” My standard answer, except for you inviting me here, Alan, is to say “no.” This keeps my calendar clear. I got this from Charlie Munger—Warren Buffett’s right-hand man, who’s also part of the World Minds community. He always says the default answer should be “no,” but of course, in a polite way. And if someone asks for a commitment far in advance, I ask myself, “How would I feel if it were scheduled this week?” Because while the calendar might look open months ahead, it won’t be empty by the time that day arrives.
Another approach I picked up is from Bill Gates. He has a “think week” twice a year, where he retreats to a cabin to read, reflect, and not talk to anyone. I do this twice a year too. I take a week off, disconnect completely, and bring only books and notepaper. My wife understands how important this is, so she lets me have that time. These “think weeks” help me get a clearer view of the world, understand myself better, and focus on what truly matters.
Alan Fleischmann
You journal?
Rolf Dobelli
I do journal, but not enough. I journal about once a month, and I write a large essay to myself. Only once a month. I plan to do it more often, but I don’t. I’m not perfect.
Alan Fleischmann
It’s something I struggle with. I carry my journal everywhere. I want to journal. I’m so happy when I write by hand and journal; it does so much for me. I know it’s important, but I don’t journal enough. I tell people to journal—I work with CEOs and say, “Journal, it will be so special, so important.” It sounds like you also take tech Sabbaths. You understand the power of technology, the power of our phones, the power of staying in touch, but you also know when to turn it off.
Rolf Dobelli
Yeah, I think that works. You have to turn it off every once in a while. Zoom calls are fantastic, especially with World Minds—we can connect people from Singapore to the West Coast. Isn’t that fantastic? I love it. But there are times when you have to completely shut it off—when you’re on vacation, or during think weeks, or at night. You shouldn’t be on your phone in bed, things like that. As a family, we try to be off the grid after a certain hour.
Alan Fleischmann
It’s extraordinary—the balance of taking advantage of digital tools like Zoom, so we can talk despite being six hours apart and not in the same place. But knowing when to turn it off is key. With World Minds, the “espresso” gatherings only happen because of today’s technology. But then you have in-person meetings where people can go deeper and get to know each other at uncommon tables you create. It’s the combination that makes it uniquely special. People want to be there in person; they want to see you. You understand that sometimes quality can’t be achieved with just quantity. When people do gather, it goes back to that first meeting—make it meaningful, make it special.
Rolf Dobelli
Yes, and as someone who created this community, I always try to think from the other person’s perspective: what is this person going through, who might they want to meet here? I’m constantly in different people’s heads mentally, trying to connect them. It’s actually not my natural role—I’m a total introvert, kind of a nerdy guy. But I’ve surprisingly grown into this curator role. It seems to work; I’ll match people up: “You should talk to this person; there’s a great scientist here you could talk to.” Maybe something can develop from it. That’s the type of leadership I’m trying to do here—not the authoritarian, top-down style, but really getting into people’s heads and thinking, “If I were in your shoes, who would I want to talk to right now?” and then making that connection.
Alan Fleischmann
Building community. It really is. And you’re part of other organizations, too, right? I know you’re a member of edge.org, and you’ve been involved in groups like the Swiss-American Chamber of Commerce. So you believe in maintaining those bridges—like the guy who lived in Florida and then went back to Switzerland. Those connections seem to be a big part of what you do, and you do it on a larger scale with World Minds. Tell us about that connectivity—the art of bringing people together.
Rolf Dobelli
Well, there’s no science to it. But if you’re truly interested in what people are experiencing and thinking about, and you sit in their minds, you start to see the world differently. And maybe you can help those people with new connections. I believe in having these connections. I’ve been active in the Swiss-American Chamber of Commerce for about 10–12 years, and I think the transatlantic connection is crucial, politically and economically. I hope that, despite Trump’s victory, the transatlantic relationship remains strong because we come from the same culture and values—we’re pro-democracy, pro-freedom. I’m fighting to keep and strengthen this bond because it’s so important for these few democracies in the world to work together.
Alan Fleischmann
Those alliances have a meaningful purpose. Without them, you can’t communicate, coordinate, or collaborate—and it creates enormous vulnerability. Do you think a lot about good versus evil, and about the importance of bringing together people who can scale good? There’s also the potential for the opposite to happen. I feel like your mission is about bringing people together with a sense of the importance of building bridges. Is there a philosophy behind that?
Rolf Dobelli
Yes. The mission of World Minds is to truly understand the world, to get a mental picture that’s more or less accurate. It will never be perfect, but only by understanding the world can we make it better. Some organizations say, “We’re going to make the world a better place”—like the World Economic Forum. But that can feel hollow if you don’t start by truly understanding the world. That’s why science is so important: if we understand something, we can change it and improve it. I don’t believe in categorizing people as good or bad. We can all behave badly in certain environments, or well in others. The environment can trigger our bad or good behaviors. At World Minds, we create a positive environment to help each other gain new perspectives and insights, so we can understand and improve the world. One key to World Minds is that we’re 100% jerk-free. Everyone in our community is accomplished and grounded—no big egos, because humility is essential to learning and improvement. We’ve only had to ask three people to leave in the history of World Minds because of ego issues. We’re vigilant about staying ego-free.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s amazing. How do you deal with bias? I think one of the ways to counteract ego and find humility is by understanding and overcoming bias. You’ve written and talked about this. What are some habits you recommend for avoiding bias? I bet we’ll see some of this in your new book! What are some habits you encourage people to adopt?
Rolf Dobelli
Yeah, so, you know, we all have our biases. I have my biases, and they’re hardwired into our brains. They come from our evolutionary past. We’re one of 4,000 mammal species, and we happen to cooperate very effectively—that’s why we created this complicated world out there. But it is complicated, and our brain and even our body aren’t attuned to it anymore. We’re made for a hunter-gatherer world, not for this world of financial markets, the internet, bitcoins, and so on. We don’t have an intuitive feel for this world anymore. So when we make decisions, we shouldn’t do it, you know, off the cuff, because that’s when we fall into biases. They’re hardwired in our brain.
I have biases despite having written a book on them. Why? Because our brains were made for a different world—a world of hunters and gatherers, Stone Age people. We’ve created this amazing but complex world, and we don’t have an intuitive feel for it anymore. So if you make a consequential decision, don’t do it impulsively or emotionally, because that’s exactly when biases kick in. Take a step back and maybe go through a checklist of the ten biases you’re most prone to. There are about 100 common biases, but maybe identify your top ten. Go through that list before making a decision.
The nice thing is that, for most decisions in life—whether business or personal—you don’t need to decide in a split second. You can sleep on it, take your time. Sometimes, you can even take two weeks or a month to think about it. That’s what people should do—really think things through before they jump in. As hunters and gatherers, if a tiger attacked, we had to make a decision immediately—fight or run? Today, we have the luxury of time; at the very least, we can sleep on it.
Alan Fleischmann
Which can be hard because so many people, especially in crisis management, feel there’s a badge of honor in moving fast. In some situations, yes, you need to act quickly and be the first to respond. But you’re so right—sometimes, when you pause, reflect, and let things percolate, insight comes from that pause. If more people embraced that, it could become a custom. Technology pushes us the other way, pushing for quick responses. But if we could build a culture where we’re expected to reflect and then come back with an answer, the outcome would be more meaningful.
Rolf Dobelli
Absolutely. Just think back to when people wrote letters instead of emails. How many times have you sent a stupid email? I know I have! And I think, “Oops, that was dumb.” But when people sent letters, they waited weeks for a reply. Conversations weren’t shallower because of it—if anything, they were probably richer. I’m not saying we should go back to those times, but we should pause and think. Pause for an hour, an evening, or a night before reacting.
Alan Fleischmann
Are handwritten letters a part of your life? Do you write notes to people?
Rolf Dobelli
Unfortunately, my handwriting is so bad, I can barely read it myself. I wish I had nice penmanship, but I type everything.
Alan Fleischmann
Are there authors or books you’d recommend? Besides your own—I definitely want to have you back when the new book comes out. But are there books you’d suggest for CEOs or aspiring leaders who want to grow in business and community impact?
Rolf Dobelli
Yes, a book I’m reading right now—actually for the second time—is Blueprint by Nicholas Christakis. He’s a sociologist at Yale and part of our community. It’s a masterpiece. It shows leaders how to cooperate more effectively because there are so many ways to do it inefficiently. He really lays out how we can be more effective, all based on science.
One piece of advice for leaders: if you read a book, read it twice, right after each other. If you read a book just once, you might retain 1% of the content, but reading it twice increases that to maybe 5 or 7%. I’m always amazed at how much I forget after one reading but how much I retain after the second. Don’t wait a year to pick it back up; start again as soon as you finish.
Alan Fleischmann
I’ve never heard that before, but it makes sense. The first time you read, you may not get all the messages, and on the second, you might notice things you missed.
Rolf Dobelli
Exactly. Reading a book twice increases retention dramatically. Of course, only do this with good books. There’s a lot of fluff out there, but with worthwhile books, it’s beneficial.
Alan Fleischmann
Do you do audiobooks as well, or mostly written formats—hard copy or electronic?
Rolf Dobelli
Mostly Kindle, so electronic.
Alan Fleischmann
I do all three—audible, hard copy, and Kindle. I must be a poster child for Amazon. There’s probably a big poster of me in some conference room there! So that’s definitely a recommended book. Any others?
Rolf Dobelli
Oh, yes. Biographies, too. A fantastic one is Damn Right, about Charlie Munger. It’s about 15 years old. I love Charlie—not only was he a great investor, but he was also a life teacher for me. I quote him frequently in my books. We even had him on a couple of our World Minds Zoom calls. He was an amazing guy, and I think every leader should read Damn Right.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s amazing. When will people be able to get copies of your new book?
Rolf Dobelli
The Not-to-Do List will be available at the end of January, 2025.
Alan Fleischmann
We’re living in chaotic times, and in our closing moments, I think there’s so much noise out there that it can feel defeating—especially with people isolating, misinformation, and disinformation everywhere. You’ve done a lot to fight that, to bring clarity and help people step up. In these last few minutes, what would you want to share with our listeners? Your journey has been about growth, responsibility, and creativity. What would you tell people listening who want to contribute meaningfully?
Rolf Dobelli
I think an important exercise, which only takes about 30 minutes, is to define your circle of competence. Identify where you are above average or even well above average in your skills—that’s where you can really make an impact. You can’t make an impact in the world with average or below-average skills. Forget about that. Find out where you’re above average—ideally, where you’re one of the best. And don’t do this by wishful thinking; look at the evidence.
Once you’ve done that circle-of-competence exercise, it’s not about how big the circle is but knowing where its boundaries lie. This idea is from Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger. Once you know your circle of competence, focus on enlarging it or making it deeper and more meaningful. Incorporate new information that makes your circle stronger. Everything outside that circle? That’s white noise. So, when you know your circle of competence, it’s clear what information to consume—books, videos, podcasts, whatever strengthens that circle. Everything else is just noise.
Alan Fleischmann
Find your genius. The idea that everyone has something special to offer is incredible. Many people struggle with noise in their head and don’t realize they’re distracting themselves from finding their own circle of influence, their own expertise, genius, and competence. Figuring out how to do that is probably the biggest challenge. How do you actually identify what that is?
Rolf Dobelli
It’s not that difficult. Look back at your life. Where were you above average in school or in your private life? Where were you really better than others? You don’t have to be the best, but above average is essential. If you’re honest with yourself, you’ll find things you’re naturally good at—that’s your circle of competence. And if you’re below average at something, don’t waste energy there. Don’t try to get better at what you’re not naturally inclined to do. Leave it aside. Focus on your strengths.
Alan Fleischmann
Love that. One last question: you have kids—do they listen to you? Are they your focus group? Do they see this wisdom?
Rolf Dobelli
We’ve got twin boys who are ten. They’re not listening to me—not yet, or maybe not anymore! I wrote The Not-to-Do List, which comes out in January, for them, hoping that when they turn 18 or 20, I can give it to them and say, “Here are 52 things—just avoid them, and your life will be better.” So my hope is that if they’re not listening now, at least they’ll read my books in about eight to ten years.
Alan Fleischmann
You’re creating a library for them. I have two wonderful daughters, and they say, “I’ll start listening to your radio show soon. I promise.” That’s where humility comes in! Well, you’ve been listening to Leadership Matters. I’m your host, Alan Fleischmann. We’ve just spent an extraordinary hour with Rolf Dobelli, a friend, leader, and inspiration for all of us—certainly for me. He’s the founder of World Minds and leads by example. This has been a wonderful hour, and I’m so grateful you joined us. I look forward to having you back to talk about the book in January.
Rolf Dobelli
It was such a pleasure, Alan. Thank you so much for inviting me.