Sally Susman

Executive Vice President and Chief Corporate Affairs Officer at Pfizer.

“Certainly, being a woman in the work world, being a gay person in the work world, has its challenges. We know there is systemic bias in the system. I've certainly tried very much to be visible, to be a leader. Ironically, on the gay point, I think, in some ways, it's helped me. Because if you make the decision to be out, to be truthful and candid about who you are, it allows people to get to know you. And to be truly authentic with people.”

Summary

In this episode of Leadership Matters, Alan and his good friend Sally Susman discuss what makes someone a successful leader, including being a visible leader, authentic, and kind.

They discuss how Sally started her career working on Capitol Hill writing legislation, where she acquired a passion for changing the world. However, she saw herself having a greater ability to do this from the business world, especially in a leadership role. Sally started working at American Express, before being pulled back into politics, and then eventually, back to American Express for a bigger job. She credits the promotion with being willing to take risks, embrace change, and keeping relationships strong. Sally came out as gay, to the dismay of her father, who told her she would not have children, a spouse, or a career. Those words became a guiding light for Sally, who fought to have all three in her life. She now says that being gay has taught her the importance of authenticity as a leader. Sally Susman is Executive Vice President and Chief Corporate Affairs Officer at Pfizer, she is also vice chair of the Pfizer Foundation and co-chair of Pfizer's Political Action Committee.

Mentions & Resources in this Episode

• The Lupus Foundation of America – Click here to learn more.

• The International Rescue Committee – Click here to learn more.

• Why I Wake Early by Mary Oliver – Click here to learn more.

Guest Bio

Sally Susman is Executive Vice President and Chief Corporate Affairs Officer at Pfizer. She is vice chair of the Pfizer Foundation and co-chair of Pfizer’s Political Action Committee.

Sally leads engagement with all of Pfizer’s external stakeholders overseeing global policy, communications, government relations, investor relations and the Chief Patient Office. Sally also heads the firm’s corporate responsibility group. Before joining Pfizer in 2007, Sally held roles at Estée Lauder Companies and the American Express Company. Earlier in her career, she spent eight years in government service focused on international trade issues.

Sally serves on the board of WPP plc, a world leader in advertising and marketing based in the U.K. and as co-chair of the board of The International Rescue Committee.

Follow Sally on LinkedIn.

Clips from This Episode

• How Pfizer's Purpose Statement is currently coming alive

• "This is an important moment of reconsideration for our industry!"

• On Albert Bourla, for his risk-taking leadership

• "The real moonshot here is to come up with a vaccine in record time!"

• On her realization that companies could lead the charge in bringing about change

Episode Transcription

Alan Fleischmann 

You’re listening to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM Radio. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. And I'm here with a very good friend, Sally Susman. And we'll be talking about Sally and her leadership and getting into her insights, especially during this period of the Coronavirus, where she and her colleagues are on the cutting edge of finding a cure for this—finding a vaccine and a cure for this virus. Sally is an extraordinary leader. She is the Executive Vice President and Chief Corporate Affairs Officer of Pfizer. That means it Sally leads Pfizer in global communications, public affairs, philanthropic and patient engagement activities. It's a massive portfolio. And it's at a company that we've now become very tied to. It's one of the most influential companies and it comes up with enormous pressures, but also enormous opportunity for scale and impact. Let me give you a little background on her. Sally joined Pfizer in 2007. She was prior to that an executive at the Estee Lauder and American Express companies. And early in her career, she focused on international trade issues here in Washington, where I am today, at the Commerce Department and on Capitol Hill. She has a demanding job at Pfizer. We'll talk a little bit more about that. And she does a lot in the philanthropic and civil society world as the co-chair of the board of the International Rescue Committee. She's on the board of the New York Botanical Garden and she was previously quite active on the board of the US Library of Congress. She's earned numerous awards over the course of her remarkable career. She's an upstanding citizen, a very good friend, and she's someone that I'm so thrilled to join us today on Leadership Matters. So welcome, Sally.

Sally Susman 

Thank you so much, Alan. It's just great to be with you. And I have enjoyed so many of our conversations over time that I look forward to this one. Thanks so much for having me.

Alan Fleischmann 

You know, it's fun to talk to you know. Normally, we're in a studio together, we get to sit across where we do these shows. And it's fun. There's something very dynamic and exciting by the fact that people don't know this because they're listening. They're not watching us. But I'm on my laptop, you're on your laptop. I think you're hunkered down, as am I and we're getting a lot done in our lives. I imagine right now being where you are. And what you do at Pfizer, you are actually on the cutting edge of you know. We're all kind of doing our work hunkering down. And you're out there actually working with an amazing CEO Albert Bourla. And then also with scientists and leading researchers, a real team of folks who are not necessarily hunkered down in their homes, but are actually in labs. So tell us a little bit about what this means to you. And what it's like to be at Pfizer during this time. We always needed you before. But it turns out, we need you a lot more today.

Sally Susman 

Thank you for that. It is an incredible moment to be working in the biopharmaceutical industry. And it's a funny thing, because when I came to the company 12 years ago, I came from, as you said, the Estee Lauder companies where it's a much beloved company, wonderful company, led by a wonderful family. And they made cosmetics products. I left there because I wanted to go into biopharmaceutical industry, because I knew that the industry didn't have a great reputation. And they made life saving medicines. So this was a conundrum that I really wanted to solve and have frankly spent the last 12 years working on and thinking about. It all sort of comes together in this moment, as you say, because we are so engaged in this incredible opportunity to find a vaccine to produce treatments that can save lives, save many lives. And so for us, we're working, you know, full—every hand on deck, everybody completely into it, and really led by our incredible CEO, Albert Bourla. I've had the privilege of working for nine CEOs in the time of my career. And they've all been wonderful in their own way. Albert is really the right man for this moment. And I'd like to just take a second to set the context for what he has—the charge he's given the company. The first thing he said is there's no such thing as business as usual right now. What we need to do is to make the impossible possible. And so we're caring for the wellness of our people. Of course, we're Delivering the supply of medicine, of course. But the real moonshot here is to come up with a vaccine in record time. So our scientists, our people working in the plant, they are deemed essential workers, and we're all supporting them in this incredible quest. It's just enormously exciting right now

Alan Fleischmann 

It's taking some risks too, I understand, because, you know, I guess the normal courses, around 18 months, when you're developing and putting out a vaccine, the test, he's actually challenged, to really not only shrink it, but triggered quite dramatically that time period.

Sally Susman 

Yeah, it was a lot of fun to be on the calls with Albert, when he was first challenging our vaccine scientists, and then challenging the wonderful leaders who work in our plants and said, this has to happen with, we're going to be first in human this month, and produce vaccines by the end of the year. All at not only financial risks, but you know, an incredible challenge, an intellectual challenge to how we work. Because yes, a vaccine can take two and a half years or even longer to produce. Because normally in regular times, you do things in a linear way. You discover, you test, you test again, you put into trials, you purchase materials, you configure the line, you apply for regulatory approvals, etc. We're doing it all at once. And at the end of the day, we may have to throw away what we produced. But if we find this vaccine, and I am so hopeful, every day that we will, we can bring it forward in record time. So you know, Albert has really pushed us this way. And as a great leader, he knows how to bend people, but never break them. And it's been an incredible thing to be a part of.

Alan Fleischmann 

Yeah, it sounds like you have some trials that are going in the marketplace, I guess. We're now in the month of April, it sounds like by the end of the month, there'll be several different drugs being tested.

Sally Susman 

Yes, we are studying some of our existing treatments to see if they can be repurposed to work against COVID. And then we're also partnering with a German company to try to bring this vaccine forward. And you make a really important point in your question, which is that we're collaborating like never before. The word competitor doesn't exist in our vocabulary today. Pfizer, Albert put out a five point plan at the early days of this pandemic, and really offered to work in collaboration with others. We've had over 240 companies come to us and say, can you help with this? Can we share information on that? And that has been an extraordinary experience and something that I think as an industry, we should feel really good about.

Alan Fleischmann 

You know, it's amazing to me, because, you know, we're very, you know, we're very worried and very concerned as citizens right now, not only where you and I are, but all over the world, looking for the cure. And I will tell you, I get to talk with a lot of influencers every day. And I get to talk with a lot of journalists every day. And they're all human beings. And I get to pepper them with hope, by talking about Albert, by talking about you, by talking about the work of pharma in general. And more importantly, what I know about Pfizer, and it's transformational. It's also very fascinating to me personally, because it's not always been the case with pharma. You know, people kind of take things for granted, and they kind of create their own image. And somehow, for the first time, for many of us, when I think of Pfizer, when I think of the industry, I'm thinking of scientists, I'm thinking of labs, I'm thinking of individuals at great risk, even, who are going in day and night working on finding the cure. And that wasn't the image that we all had just a matter of months ago, weeks ago. And I will say when I talk to different people, and I tell them, you know, this is what I noticed happening and what I hear is happening, you should read the five point plan, which I think I've read now, many, many times. There's a relief. We're all human beings and people then go, tell me more because people want to see that light at the end of the tunnel. That must be very gratifying.

Sally Susman 

Well, it is and I love working with scientists, but I'm actually a communicator at heart. And as a communicator, this is an important moment of reconsideration for our industry and how we behave and how we engage. Right now, we'll set the discussion and the dialogue for this industry for years to come. And we just did something yesterday that I thought was very important. We stopped advertising our products. You know, this is not, as I said, it's not a business as usual time. And instead, we took that money that we used to use to advertise our products. And we made a tribute to our—we made a new commercial that is a tribute to scientists, and exists under the headline, Science Will Win. And so to your point, it is a moment where people can think of our industry and our companies, Pfizer and others, for these wonderful scientists who work at the bench, who sometimes pick up the work of their predecessor, spend their whole career, laboring in the lab, and then pass it off to their successors. So nobody goes into science to be famous, or to be rich, they go into science to make a difference in human health. So this is their moment. And it's our moment. And it's an important moment, as you say, for the industry, to put its best foot forward.

Alan Fleischmann 

You know, we forget that we've had crises before, but we've never had a crisis like this. I guess, which was not, you know, brought on by a housing bubble or a banking crisis, or, certainly, we haven't had a crisis that affected every human being on the globe at the same time, no matter where you go. You're a global company. And you've been a global leader for a long time, wherever you go. You talk to anybody, they're doing the same thing we're doing, we're all hunkering down. But there is something very promising and very uplifting to know that human ingenuity, and technology will get us out of this. And that even just five years ago, we didn't have even the slightest bit of machine learning or artificial intelligence or even the most advanced technologies that we even have today. And I understand also, a lot of your colleagues at Pfizer are adapting those technologies, they're infusing that in everything that they're doing, they can scale better because of it. But it also is affecting the science as well. Because I know that's a big part of you know, you're communicating is to let people know that it's not business as usual. But it's also that we're adapting in a way. And we're leading in a way, I guess, in the life sciences that, frankly, only technology could prove to do.

Sally Susman 

It's very true. I know, you're familiar with Pfizer's Chief Digital Officer, Lidia Fonseca. And she's a real change agent that joined the company, just, I think, just last year, and she is using artificial intelligence to speed up the whole drug discovery process. She's an incredible thinker and leader and technologist, and, as you say, deepening the kinds of scientific tools and the ways in which we innovate. Essentially, to do everything more quickly, and to make medicines more accessible. You know, Pfizer has a purpose that we just defined last year, a new fresh purpose statement, that is: Breakthroughs that change patients lives. So for us, each one of those words was very carefully chosen. And breakthroughs mean true innovations, not … drugs, not something like the other guy has. But a real breakthrough, that can shape shift the lives of people. But that word, patients lives is very important, because a medicine that's, you know, not available to people, that can't be produced at scale with quality is meaningless. So at this moment, that purpose statement really comes alive. And we try to bring all the pieces together in this massive hurry and using absolutely every tool at our disposal to do it.

Alan Fleischmann 

Well, it's amazing. I think there was an article that I don't think anyone would have expected, but it was in the Wall Street Journal, I think a few weeks ago, which was about Pfizer's role. And, you know, in earlier crises, health crises, you know, going back 100 years more. So the company has a long history of being on the front lines, and you don't get in now, we don't live in a time where you happen to work through. We're gonna go through your journey in a second because it's fascinating to me, personally and professionally. But you've worked for some iconic companies. I mean, when you think about, we're living in an age where you can't name the same companies by that—they were kind of dominant 10 years ago, five years ago, many of them are not dominant today. In fact, many of them have gone—they're called something else or they've gone by the wayside. You're working for a company right now in Pfizer, that's been around for a while. And it's been a leader for a long time. So it's kind of also exciting. And you've obviously had that journey before that. So you're used to working with iconic brands. And as a communicator, and as someone who thinks about that engagement between individuals and communities and stakeholders with the company, it must be very gratifying, but it also must be a very big responsibility, because you're carrying forward the kind of way you described one scientist handing over their life's work to another. I guess, in some ways, you know, you are the, you know, you and Albert Bourla, and the team around you are, you know, you have a treasure in your hand and a reputation to take care of, to preserve and conserve and then bring forward so that it's relevant today must be a big responsibility as well.

Sally Susman 

It's a great deal of fun. I mean, it's a great deal of fun. As you know, my journey into corporate America was a surprising one to me. As a little girl growing up in St. Louis, Missouri, I wanted to do good in the world, I hope to be a journalist, or maybe the mayor of my town. And my first job after college, I went to work on Capitol Hill. And it's, as you know, a great learning ground for young people. But I was on the hill for six years and my great accomplishment was writing legislation where I changed the word or to and. And while that can be meaningful, it wasn't exactly earth shattering to me. And during that time that I worked in government, I met a lot of business people, and I like them. And I thought they were smart. I thought they were hard working, I thought they were impressive and focused. And so I planted a seed of an idea, in my own mind, that business was actually a very interesting place, from what you could do a lot of good. Especially if you work at a leadership company. Especially if that company has a relevant footprint with society. So I took this leap, I went to work for one big company, and then another. And a lot of my friends, you know, they would sort of say, Why do you work in big corporate? Or we see with young people today, that they're not necessarily drawn to corporations. And this is a battle I fight all the time.

Alan Fleischmann 

You wrote an article. I'm right? You wrote an article just a couple years ago, right, that I read, and I was very struck by because it was talking to young people, knowing that you've had a life of corporate service, it says, in the private sector, and telling them what they need to know.

Sally Susman 

Well, I try. I enjoy talking to young people, especially our wonderful interns, and I make the case to them, to give business a chance and don't sell working in a corporation short. I've had many examples in my own life. And I'd like to share one where I saw companies moving ahead of governments and making change. And that was in the late 80s, early 90s, when I first started working at American Express. And I was also coming out as a lesbian at the time. And, you know, coming out of the closet and trying to make a life and make some of the changes in our society that have led to an incredible civil rights movement for gay people. And I remember being a part of a team of young people at American Express, and going and talking to our CEO Harvey Gollob and making the case for same partner benefits, same sex partner benefits in our HR benefits. I was terrified. I mean, I was utterly terrified to do this. I couldn't believe it was happening. Harvey Golub is a very smart man, a logical thinker. And he agreed immediately to do this. And American Express was a company on the forefront in providing domestic partner benefits to gay workers. And many companies were like that. So it's just one example, Alan, and I have many, where you can drive change if you are in a company, and you know, working in the mix with everyone and getting to know people and trying to make a positive difference while also doing great job for the company.

Alan Fleischmann 

Wow. You're listening to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM. I'm your host Alan Fleischmann. And I'm here with Sally Susman. Who is the Executive Vice President, Chief Corporate Affairs Officer for Pfizer. She's a friend and we're talking about leadership, her journey, and being on the frontlines right now. Not only in the fight to get a vaccine to help us all, in this pandemic, but also her reflections on a life well spent, as a leader in other corporations and other private sector and in civil society, actually. That transition that you took, was that like—you said, you knew people, you liked them. And you thought, you know, the private sector firms that you met, were good. Were you immediately it was—what was the first company went to right after you left Washington.

Sally Susman 

I went to American Express. And when I say I knew people, I might be overstating it, I met some people. I met some people, I had met this one man who was a senior executive at American Express. And I remember that he—I went to work for him. American Express was my first choice in this bold theory I had that I should leave government and go into business. And I pitched myself to him. I called and tried to get a meeting and took several phone calls before he would agree to a meeting. And ultimately, I was offered 15 minutes. Early on a Monday morning, I took the train up from Washington to New York to see him. We were having a quick cup of coffee, I told him why I was there. I wanted to work for him. And he listened. He said he thought I had a terrific job on Capitol Hill, maybe I should stay there. And I told him, I wasn't gonna stay there, that this was a change I was making. That I had other offers, which I didn't. That he was my first choice. And I wanted to work for him. And in that moment, I saw him see me for the first time. And he ultimately did make me an offer. And I did start working at American Express in communications. But I think for your listeners, the pivotal moment was when I decided that this was going to be what I was going to do one way or another, and took that risk of putting myself out there. A bit brazenly perhaps but I think it was a successful strategy in the moment.

Alan Fleischmann 

Where then when you sat? Who was the person you mentioned, or know the person you met with?

Sally Susman 

I think it might be better if I didn't, but he was a very senior guy.

Alan Fleischmann 

Yeah. So when you met with him, and you have the conversation, I'm just curious, did you position your conversation as what you could offer the company and offer him? Or was it about why that was a good part—a good time in your career. Because I'm struck by the fact—and it may be a generational thing at times. But I find that they're, you know, that there are folks who are my age, and a little younger and a little older, who, when you ask them how they position themselves, when they made moments of change in their careers, they presented themselves as why they were the right person, for them. The right person for their future employer, I find it very often right now, when you talk to younger people, they'll sit in interviews with you and tell you why you're the right fit for them. And it's a very different mindset. And I'm just curious if you recall, and how you position yourself at the time?

Sally Susman 

Well, I'm of your generation. So of course, I was trying to explain what I thought I could bring to the table, what contributions I could make, what I had learned as a Capitol Hill staffer to be able to research, write, think, add value. But I also think at the same time, there was obviously something in my persistence, in my, you know, excitement in the moment, that I hope conveyed, how much I wanted it. And I would argue that people need to do both. Getting a job is like a marriage. You know, you bring something to it. But you also obviously hope to get something from it. And creating that right blend of what I can contribute, but also what I'm eager to learn and how I want to expand. I think those things have to come together in the moment.

Alan Fleischmann 

How long were you at American Express?

Sally Susman 

Was it American Express for about six years, but in two different stints. I started in New York in the communications area. And then I got lured back to government when President Clinton won and several of my friends that I had worked with on the hill went into the administration. I thought, I'm going to go back and give that one more try. So I went down to Washington, I was the deputy assistant secretary for legislative affairs at the Commerce Department. So I worked for Secretary Ron Brown, who was a great leader. And interestingly, then, I worked there a couple years. American Express called me back, and asked me if I would rejoin the company as head of their Corporate affairs in Europe, based out of London. And this is something I'd like to share with your listeners, because it was a great lesson to me in hindsight, that you never burn a bridge, it's important to maintain your relationships. So essentially, the folks I had worked with in Washington on the hill, were the people who brought me into the Clinton administration. And the friends I made when I worked at American Express, in the first round, were the same people who called back and offered me a bigger job, that I'm not sure they would have offered me if I hadn't actually left and gone and done something different. So you know, it's a combination of taking the risks, being willing to embrace change, but never leaving your friendships behind and keeping those relationships really rich and really strong.

Alan Fleischmann 

I know it's important to you, and you can hear it the way you're talking. The power of trust and the importance of trust. I mean, in the roles and responsibilities, but also the relationships you forging as you go along your journey. And everything you do. It's an extraordinarily important attribute quality, and it should be something as a priority, that we all feel all the time. And I think we do and we strive for it. But it sounds like that's kind of on the front line of how you go about your life.

Sally Susman 

You know, it's a great question. I don't think I don't think I think about trust, but certainly we all act on trust, you know. I want to work for people I trust, I want to work with people I trust. That trust, by the way, is very important right now, because Pfizer's Executive Committee, you know, we're only meeting by Zoom, we're trying to solve complex problems, lead a corporation of 90,000 people around the world. And we're doing it pretty easily because the team trusts one another. And that trust is become even more important in this moment. The same is true for the people I recruit to my own team. I am—I don't use search firms, although I have many friends in search firms. And I don't want to just the search firms, but I do a lot of my own recruiting, because whether it's an external advisor or a member of the team, I want to work with people whom I trust.

Alan Fleischmann 

And you think about the difference in skill sets and personalities when you're putting together a team, you know, to deal with different aspects of your responsibilities, you're kind of pulling together the A team, do you think about what that person fits that role? And that person can really add by bringing that skill set?

Sally Susman 

Oh, definitely. You know, it's skills, its roles. It's a bit of casting, how you want the people to engage and be in the world. I like to work with senior people. I like to work with people who have a lot of experience, because in communications and Corporate affairs, my area, a lot is learned through apprenticeship. I know there are some graduate programs that teach some of these skills. But people learn how to advise senior executives, how to represent companies, how to engage in stakeholders from doing it and watching other people do it well. I certainly have learned from many mentors in business, who I've said, Gee, I want to be like her, or I want to do it the way he did it.

Alan Fleischmann 

You know, you're also—when you said earlier about your journey, and that you've seen transformation. Certainly in the private sector leadership when you were coming out, in, you know, the role of being a gay leader, and then what you could actually affect outside of your own enterprise, in this case was American Express. You know, it's funny. Maybe this was the greatest civil rights movement of our time and maybe that's just the way I see things, but you know, when you think of Ken Chenault, on who is your, I guess, your CEO and American Express, one would never say he was among the finest African American business leaders. But he was, is, actually, still very involved with giving great leadership and providing great leadership today. He would want to be known as one of the great leaders and he is. I would say you are certainly on the frontlines inspiring as a woman, certainly, as a gay leader in business, but actually in life. But I guess you wouldn't want to be defined by those either. I mean, it's a responsibility, I guess, to be seen as a role model. And this is someone who's charging forward and advancing. But I guess at the end of the day, you want to be known for being the best at what you do and surrounded by the best people that you help pull together.

Sally Susman 

Great question. Certainly, being a woman in the work world, being a gay person in the work world, has its challenges. We know there is systemic bias in the system. I've certainly tried very much to be visible, to be a leader. Ironically, on the gay point, I think, in some ways, it's helped me. Because if you make the decision to be out, to be truthful and candid about who you are, it allows people to get to know you. And to be truly authentic with people. I feel very sorry for gay people in the generations before me, who weren't able to do that, and would switch their pronouns or hide their personal photos, because it probably led to some distrust, getting back to your comment about trust, feelings of inauthenticity, skepticism or cynicism around people because they weren't known. So in many ways, I think being an openly gay leader has ultimately been an advantage to me, certainly, there have been some awkward and challenging moments. But overall, I think it's been a great asset for me, and how I try to engage in the world. Ultimately, and you're so right about Ken Chenault. I did work with Ken, I admire Ken. And the way he handled it has informed my way of handling whatever differences we have, because they are relevant to who we are. But our goal is for them to be ultimately irrelevant. And so that is, what I aspire is to have my differences be known but not relevant.

Alan Fleischmann 

And the responsibility, I guess, of letting others know that you can do this. One can have a career, one can't aspire to do anything. You're also a mom, right? So you also, you also want to, I guess, send that messages to young people, including those who live in your home, in this case, your daughter, so that, you know, there's nothing impossible. Gets back to the Albert Bourla thing and make everything you know possible that what others might say was impossible.

Sally Susman 

Yes. When I came out in the mid 80s. You know, it's a story I've told before, my father, whom I love dearly, and is one of the most important figures in my life, was terribly upset. And he said, through tears that I would never have a spouse or a child, or a career. And he said those things not to be cruel. But because those were his fears for me and the challenges he thought I would face. I don't think I knew it, then. But essentially, that set my life plan. And the three things that are most important to me in my life is my relationship with my wonderful wife, my incredibly talented and beautiful adult daughter. And the work I do. The work I do at Pfizer, the work I'm able to do in the world. These things matter most to me. And so you know, this is why I am grateful that I was born in this time and in this place these years in this country, and have taken full advantage and hopefully help to create advantage for people like me.

Alan Fleischmann 

Tell us a little bit about your parents. I know I'm going over the time that I asked you to be on, but I'm hoping you'll give me a little bit more time. Because a couple of things I want to get to about you. I'm struck by the fact that, you know, you do combine the same purpose, the word they used earlier and the same values in every parts of your life. I'm curious about your parents a little bit as well. They've had a life of service as well. Right. Your father in particular. Tell us a little bit about your mom and dad.

Sally Susman 

We're very Midwestern. I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri. It's a wonderful place to be from lots of heartland values and opportunities to grow up in a suburban, you know, setting, a middle class suburban setting with wonderful public schools and friends and cousins around. Riding bikes and backyard barbecues, very, very lovely way to grow up. My parents are a close couple. They've been married 60 years. They are both very hardworking people. My mother has a career in volunteerism. She worked at a juvenile detention center in our neighborhood when I was young. She has had lupus for over 35 years and at one point served as the head of the Lupus Foundation of America. So very hard charging. My dad has had many careers, he was a lawyer in St. Louis, and then a banker in Chicago. My folks moved to Chicago after my brother and I grew up. And then ultimately, in his 70s, was appointed by President Obama, to serve as the Ambassador to the court of St. James. So they've both been an inspiration for me about public service. And my dad has been an inspiration for me, and the ability to continue to change throughout your life. You know, he could have stayed a lawyer in St. Louis forever, but they continued to want to grow and evolve. They moved from a small town to a big city, and then ultimately spent four years in London, having an incredible experience. Serving the country.

Alan Fleischmann 

Yeah. When you're talking about even your life, of service and commerce, and you know, that journey that took you then from there to London yourself, with American Express, you know, the idea of leaning into change, not easy to do. It's a big part of you as an example. But it must be a big part of you, as a leader also. As you said earlier, you obviously have seen your father and your mother, just embracing change, and you have one life to live and knowing that, you know, time is so precious.

Sally Susman 

I really enjoyed working in three different industries. The first six months to a year is always painful when you're learning a new language. And the other extraordinary experience was working overseas. So I really encourage people to do these things. Become uncomfortable. It will be okay. In the end, it will be better than okay, in the end if you allow yourself to be uncomfortable.

Alan Fleischmann 

So you know, another part of your life is, you've had a public service part of your life you've had and you continue to serve in private sector. And I do think it's a public service in many ways, especially when you're working at Pfizer, where you are working for the public very directly and very conspicuously there. But you've also been doing a lot in civil society, you've taken leadership roles there, you're the co chair of the International Rescue Committee, for example. Why? You know, I guess why in general, and why the IRC?

Sally Susman 

Well, you know, oftentimes people say it's so kind or generous of you to spend your time this way. I think about it differently. It's a gift to me to be able to volunteer and to work for others who are more vulnerable. And I think refugees are among the most vulnerable people. Just a quick word about the IRC. It was founded by Albert Einstein, after World War Two, in the belief that never again, should people float around in the ocean with nowhere to land and nowhere to call home. Our motto is from harm to home. In recent years, the refugee situation has become extreme. There's many, many people fleeing violence and other horrid circumstances, trying to make their way to safety for their families. It's a particularly relevant point now, Alan, during the COVID crisis, because having the ability to self isolate or quarantine in our homes, is really a privilege. And if you are in a camp setting, or in transit, you don't have that opportunity. And so we are really leaning into our work right now, trying to make sure we have the funds and the support from governments to protect these most vulnerable people. David Miliband, who is the former foreign secretary in the UK, has been our CEO for about eight years now at the IRC. And I just find David very inspiring. I find the team, they're very inspiring. So I'm lucky, I'm the lucky one to be able to work there. And to try to lend whatever skills I can bring to helping the world understand and support these most vulnerable people.

Alan Fleischmann 

Wow. You just used the word vulnerability, and I guess and if there's ever a time, where we're all feeling or reaffirming that vulnerability, you know, you described a lot of your life lessons and, and I would call it wisdom. I know you well enough to know you won't call it wisdom because your— the humility in which you lead, but you know, about, you know, overcoming fear, you know, is a big part of our job. We all have our journeys, but certainly it's been the way you've kind of paved your way. We're living in a fearful time right now at a time of uncertainty. It's certainly a time where we feel very vulnerable. It doesn't matter. You know, how rich or poor you are. What color, you know, whatever, you know, challenges we have in life, there seems to be a fear that everyone is feeling a certain vulnerability that everyone is feeling. It's an uncertainty. But it also can be a time for, you know, reaffirmation, and to find your own resolve in all that as well. What advice would you give to others knowing that—I know you well enough to know that you're the first person to say, you know, with great humility, you know, you feel it too. But what do you do every day? And what is the exercises that you kind of bring to bear that help you get over—that you overcome fear that makes you be so empathetic about other populations, which drives you to what you do every day at Pfizer? But certainly, your work at the IRC? What would you—What advice would you give to others?

Sally Susman 

What a moment that we're living in, there's just so much to reflect upon. And think about, and question. I was asking myself this morning has COVID 19 made the world smaller or bigger? Has it brought us closer together or further apart? In many ways, the world is small right now, you know, we're all living hunkered down, I'm here with my wife and daughter, we're not seeing anyone else. But in other ways, it's made the world bigger, because we're connecting with communities across the world. This virus doesn't care who you are, or how much money you have, what you do for a living. And so you know, we're sharing the same fears with people all around the world. And so there's just so much to think about. And what I try to do is a few things to take care of myself. I am trying to schedule in half hour every day, to take a walk and just get away from the computer. I'm trying to eat healthy, keeping tabs on my caffeine levels, and red wine consumption. Taking care of ourselves is very, very important. Look, it's a hard moment. My mother in law has a—91 year old mother in law has a bad case of COVID. And we think of her all the time. I know many families have so many struggles associated with this. But hopefully we can find ways to bring ourselves a bit of peace. And think a lot about what changes will this pandemic bring to the world? And what changes will it bring to me or to you? That's a fascinating discussion to be having with oneself right now.

Alan Fleischmann 

You know what, before we started the show, you mentioned to me that one of the other things that you've been doing in this midst of this crazy schedule that I know you're leading right now from probably Zoom call to Zoom call or WebEx called to WebEx call. You mentioned poetry, that you're reading poetry. I'm curious what you're reading, and I'd love you to share a little bit with us about what's driving you to poetry and what is the gift of poetry for you right now, maybe you can share a little bit with us.

Sally Susman 

Thank you. I love to write and to read. Those are two of my greatest passions. But I've been struggling to be able to read long form books and you know, just don't have the concentration. So, I've gone to my old friend poetry of late and my favorite poet is Mary Oliver. She writes a lot about nature and resiliency and inspiration. And if you will allow me I'd love to share the poem I read this morning. It's called Why I Wake Early. And I read this poem very early this morning. Hello, sun in my face. Hello, you who make the morning and spread it over the fields and into the faces of the tulips and the nodding morning glories, and into the windows of, even, the miserable and the crotchety—best preacher there ever was, dear star, that just happens to be where you are in the universe to keep us from ever darkness, to ease us with warm touching, to hold us in the great hands of light—good morning, good morning, good morning. Watch, now, how I start the day in happiness, in kindness. So, this morning, you know I woke up kind of mad and a little anxious about all that was going on in the world. And I read this Mary Oliver poem, and I did feel a bit happier and a bit kinder.

Alan Fleischmann 

Oh, that's beautiful. Wow. So in the last couple of minutes, anything that you would want our listeners to know? Any kind of message, you'd want to make sure that hasn't been lost? Because while you're here on Leadership Matters, which is a great conversation, Sally, about the the importance of being on the front lines, and that you can do it in the private sector in particular. That the work that you're doing every day that your colleagues are doing every day, I don't think we've ever felt more essential than now. So there's a little bit of personal relief, hearing that poem and then hearing you talk. But what would you be your advice? You are an extraordinary leader, and you give back. What would you tell us today? What would you tell in particular young people, maybe at the age where your daughter is and say, you know, when we get out of this, and people need to hear a little bit about that. When we get out of this period, what would you expec of them? And what would you hope for them?

Sally Susman 

So much exists in that question, a few thoughts on the personal and then maybe to close on one in the professional, certainly, on the personal. My heart goes out to everyone who's suffering in this moment. And try, I try, I hope others can try to cultivate a practice of kindness. I did go to the pharmacy the other day, I needed to pick up some medicine for the family. And some people were fussy in the store. And I wanted to get fussy back at them. But I just said to myself, no, they're afraid. They're fearful. They're acting out of fear. Do I try to manage my own fear, try to put forward some sense of kindness? And hopefully others can do that as well? Because it will ultimately serve us in the long run. As far as how the world will change, and the more professional thoughts, the world will change. I mean, after 9/11, we accepted all new levels of security. We showed our driver's license every time we went into a building. We take our shoes off when we go through the airport, we accepted security measures as totally fine. And I think after this people will accept different levels of health care measures. People may continue to wear masks more regularly. People will wash their hands as a daily habit. We're even hearing things about immunity, immuno passports or immunity passports rather. So I think we will accept new levels of health care scrutiny into our lives. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But just please remember this from a professional point of view. In this time of uncertainty, in these moments of fear, the enemy is the virus, and science will win.

Alan Fleischmann 

Well, we needed that. This has been a pleasure. You've been listening to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM. I've been your host, Alan Fleischmann. We've had a great conversation today with Sally Susman, who's not only the Executive Vice President and Chief Corporate Affairs Officer for Pfizer, and on the frontlines, thank goodness. She's also a great leader in civil society and a great role model for us all. This has been a very special show for me personally. It's a very special show for all of us. And I just want to say thank you, in your busy day to spend some time with us this morning. I think I'm gonna read some Mary Oliver every morning. I'm very grateful for that too. I feel very inspired leaving you today.

Sally Susman 

Thank you, Alan, and take good care.

Alan Fleischmann 

You too. Thanks so much.