Shelley Zalis
Founder and CEO, The Female Quotient
Being a leader is scary. You’ve got to take risks.
Summary
For this week's episode of "Leadership Matters," Alan is joined by Shelley Zalis for a conversation about her pioneering career in online research, her work to advance equality in the workplace, and the insights into leadership she has developed over the years.
Shelley proudly labels herself a troublemaker, and for good reason — she is a spirited advocate for women's issues who knows that settling for the status quo is not enough. Over the course of her conversation with Alan, she detailed the many obstacles she needed to overcome when creating the Online Testing Exchange, an online research firm that quickly grew to become one of the most influential in the industry. After OTX's phenomenal success, Shelley sold the company to Ipsos and decided to embark on a new adventure, empowering women across the corporate world to seize opportunities in a culture that, too often, relegates them to supporting roles. Shelley’s message of self-confidence to young women embarking on their own careers, in particular, is a stirring reminder that we have yet to go on the road to equality, but also, that the ability to achieve it is firmly in our own hands.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
Guest Bio
Shelley Zalis, CEO of The Female Quotient, is an internationally renowned thought leader, movement maker, and champion of equality. She is a pioneer for online research, becoming the first female chief executive ranked in the research industry’s top 25. Today, as CEO of The Female Quotient, Zalis works with Fortune 500 companies and impact organizations to advance equality in the workplace. Through its signature pop-up experience, the Equality Lounge®, along with the Global Exchange and advisory services, The Female Quotient has created an international community of women rising up to catalyze change. A firm believer in giving back with generosity, Zalis is a proud mentor to women around the world.
Zalis authors a Forbes column that provides virtual mentorship for women in middle management. She is co-founder of #SeeHer, a movement led by the Association of National Advertisers (ANA) to increase the accurate portrayal of women and girls in advertising and media. She is on the board of directors for MAKERS.
Clips from this Episode
Shelley’s advice to young people looking to be change makers
On bringing more women to CES and how it shook up the industry
Episode Transcription
Alan Fleischmann
You’re listening to “Leadership Matters” on SiriusXM and leadershipmattersshow.com. I’m your host, Alan Fleischmann. I’m here with Shelley Zalis — CEO, thought leader, and equality champion.
Our guest today is an inspiring CEO and a champion of workplace equality. Shelly is the founder and CEO of The Female Quotient, a trailblazing company working with leaders across the public, private, and civil society sectors to advance equality in the workplace. Since founding the Female Quotient in 2015, Shelly has emerged as a global leader in the fight for equality and is frequently consulted by researchers and the press. In addition to its consulting services, The Female Quotient provides space for women through its equality lounge and annual events, including the World Economic Forum, South by Southwest, and even the NBA All-Star game, in addition to many others. Before creating The Female Quotient, Shelley served as the only female CEO of a top 25 Global Research Company, founding and leading the Online Testing Exchange before its sale to research giant Ipsos. She has been a pioneer in the fields of online advertising and market research and has been called the Chief Troublemaker for her incredible advocacy work over the years.
It is so great to have you on the show, Shelley, and to talk about your career, your life, and what we all can do to enhance equality in the workplace.
Shelley Zalis
I’m so excited to be here with you, Alan, especially talking about the topic of leadership and zigging and zagging and breaking the rules when they make no sense. So, happy to be here.
Alan Fleischmann
I love it that you’re called the chief troublemaker. That’s fabulous. That’s great.
Shelley Zalis
Someone’s got to break the rules every once in a while.
Alan Fleischmann
Let’s talk for a moment about your upbringing, your early life. Before we get into your career, you grew up in Los Angeles, where you are right now. You as one of four sisters, if I’m not mistaken. What was life around like around the house?
Shelley Zalis
You know what, it was remarkable. A lot of times people will say, “How could you be one of four girls and still be alive to talk about it?” And you know what, my parents did something awfully right. Because we were the bestest of sisters, we got along so well. I don’t even remember fighting with my sisters, which is pretty remarkable. We were, and are, best friends. They actually wrote an article about my baby sister and me. It was in one of the big magazines. And it was said that we are sisters that are so much alike and so different in so many ways. And we’re so much alike, because we share the same values. But we’re made of the same values and are so different.
It’s my baby sister, Rachel. Let’s see, how old is she? Well, she looks 30. But she might be like 53. And I’m 60. And it said we’re so alike. We were both in Hollywood at the same time. But it said she wears her dresses way above the knee and I wear mine below the knee. She wears the most trendy dresses, and I wear couture. She is just doing a wardrobe change at 10pm, and I’m going to sleep at 10pm. It was hysterical. The story was quite funny. But that’s what it’s all about.
My older sister and I were 14 months apart and we shared a bedroom. We never fought about anything except one t-shirt that she never let me wear. It was like we shared clothes and we actually dated the same guys — though not at the same time.
That’s what my parents did. They taught us the most incredible values; you know, the important things in life. To be four girls living in the same household, we shared Barbie dolls and we shared clothes, it was all about love. Today, there is nothing more important than my sisters who are my best friends.
Alan Fleischmann
All four of you live in Los Angeles?
Shelley Zalis
Three out of four of us live in LA, and my sister Shireen lives in San Francisco. Not too far, our kids are all great friends. We’re all connected, and I think that is what is so important.
I really do think that it was our Shabbases. We’re modern Orthodox, and every Friday night having the 24 hours together — Friday through Saturday night, not using phones. My house was Grand Central Station, and all of our friends would pour into our houses and we’d hang out together for Friday night dinners together, spending time together, and we would go on trips together. My parents would take us on trips chasing total solar eclipses. And we would live life with wonder.
My father always said — my father passed, well, it’s almost five years ago — that if he had money when he passed, he truly did not know how to use his money properly. There’s, I guess, 19 of us, with four girls and grandchildren and children. And every year, my parents would take us on family trips, and we would get a note from my parents a year and a half in advance that would tell us where we’re going and where to show up. We would get a note that said, “Here’s your tickets, here’s the itinerary, and here’s where you need to be.” And there were a couple of rules. One, no checked luggage, that was a rule, We had to if we’re going for two weeks, didn’t matter, no checked luggage.
Alan Fleischmann
Not wasting your time looking for your luggage.
Shelley Zalis
And we were told where to show up. And if you wanted to change your itinerary, change your itinerary, but you had to be at this location, at this time, and those were the rules of the road. My father did not believe in time, he didn’t wear a watch. He just believed in living life in the moment. It was a no regret policy; you never want to look back and say “shoulda, woulda, coulda.” And that is how he spent his money. He didn’t believe in leaving money and stuffing it under the bed. We lived in the moment. And we would go on family trips together, the 19 of us, and chase total solar eclipses. This is how we were so close as a family, we spent time together. And we never took pictures. We didn’t need to look back at a picture. It’s all in our mind. It’s all in our heads. It’s those living-life moments and memories of time together. That’s, I think, why we’re all so close to one another, those living life moments and memories.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that you’re never taking photos, I would take the pictures. I take a selfie almost every single day. You didn’t take pictures on any of those trips?
Shelley Zalis
I’ll never forget them: they’re ingrained in in my heart and in my mind.
Alan Fleischmann
And does your mom still do these travels?
Shelley Zalis
My mom lives on my block. Half a block away. She comes every Friday night for dinner. My family is always at my home, Friday night Shabbat we spend time together.
Alan Fleischmann
And did all the kids grow up — going out Friday night after dinner, or did they stay home Friday night to Saturday night?
Shelley Zalis
Friday night is tradition. We always have matzah ball soup. And you know, it’s tradition. We say all the blessings. It’s about together time, it’s family time. Their friends can all come here, but it’s at my house.
Alan Fleischmann
So you know that they don’t go out afterward? For example, after dinner?
Shelley Zalis
I think they’re too exhausted. And now my grandson comes, so we start at six o’clock. So my little one-year-old grandson here, my sisters, and whoever is in town comes and we all are together Friday night for dinner.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. I’ve been reading a lot about the Sabbath; one of the things I want to do is bring that topic into this radio show. Whether it’s for religious reasons or just for Saturday reasons, some of the most productive people I know take a tech or digital Sabbath. The busier they are, the more likely that they do it. It’s been a big topic in my life, trying to figure out how one can actually construct that in their life. So it’s for the purposes of faith, but also for the purpose of being faithful to yourself.
Shelley Zalis
So it’s time together. We play Scrabble, we play games. It’s just really nice having that unplugged time together. And I really do give my parents so much credit for that. It’s connected time with the people you love, and you get so busy during the week. It’s that timeout time together, and it’s so meaningful. And I really do think it’s one of the reasons we are so connected to one another.
Alan Fleischmann
Then that really creates a real dynamic with a family, like a bedrock. You know where you are one day, the week we were all together, which is pretty amazing.
So, I know your dad was in medicine, and your mom was also pretty amazing and involved in causes and organizations — the Golda Meir Club, for example, and the first conference for women, I think, for Governor Pete Wilson in California. I’m just curious: How much inspiration did that mean from the family point of view? I can imagine they were amazing at keeping the family together and at being curious, adventurous, and living in the moment. It sounds like you got a lot from them, but it also sounds like a sense of community.
Shelley Zalis
Such a sense of community. My mother was raising four girls. My father was a doctor in the Army starting out, and they really didn’t have any money. So my mother had to raise four daughters. She used to push us in… Even going to temple in the mornings on Saturdays, she’d push us in a shopping cart uphill. We lived in San Francisco the first couple of years. My father was at Letterman Hospital, in the Army. And then we moved to Germany, where I was from the age of two to five. He was a doctor in the Army in Germany and we lived in Frankfurt. So it was tough in our early years.
In our early years, my mom volunteered and was very involved in schools, in temples, and in fundraising. And it wasn’t until we were all grown up that she worked for Pete Wilson, the governor. She then worked for Gary Winnick, but she was volunteering early in our years. She did so much, but when she worked for Pete Wilson, it was amazing. I remember going to the first conference for women, there were 5,000 Women in Long Beach. I showed up — I must have been 28 years old or something — and saw all of these women coming. I didn’t really understand what it was at the time. Listening to all these women asking questions about work-life balance, I wasn’t experiencing that quite yet at the time, not understanding all of these things, and thinking, “Oh my god, I can’t believe these women are even asking these questions and having the courage to stand up in front of all these people.” Now I look back and I say, well, that is me now, putting these conferences on. I actually found the agenda from the first conference my mother put on.
Alan Fleischmann
This is a crazy question, I shouldn’t ask it live on a radio show. But was your mom Rosalie?
Shelley Zalis
Yes! Do you know her?
Alan Fleischmann
I met your mom, I spent time with your mom. I just realized this as we were talking when you said Gary Winnick. I knew your mom way back when I was chief of staff, in another life millions of years ago, with Kathleen Kennedy Townsend. I got to know your mom and I spent a lot of time with your mom in Beverly Hills in LA, twentysomething years ago.
Shelley Zalis
I have shivers! I just thought about this because I’m going to publish the first agenda of the conference for women, because Maria Shriver took it over later.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, remember that?
Shelley Zalis
My mom is a legend. Honestly, Alan, just even that you’re bringing it up… I look at my mom, and she’s my mom. But my mom is a badass boss. Raising four girls, you know, you don’t think about it. My mom is my mom. But my mom is Rosalie. I mean, presidents of the United States can see my mom and know her, and I don’t even think about it.
Alan Fleischmann
George H.W. Bush, the father, knew her really well. I have a very vivid memory of your mom in a fabulous way. So that’s very funny. You’re talking about her and I go, “wait a minute. You’re describing someone I know.” And then, click. That’s so funny.
Shelley Zalis
My mom is the most incredible mother in the whole wide world. Like, would take the shirt off her back, but was also raising us.
I have three children, and now I have a beautiful daughter-in-law, a beautiful son-in-law, a beautiful grandson. But no matter how busy my mother is, she can multitask on steroids. Works for the governor of California, worked for a billionaire Gary Winnick. No matter how many meetings she had, how many trips she went on, or how many women she was hosting for conferences for women — no matter what, she would still show up in my parking space or in my my home, whenever called, and pull up. Her trunk would pop open and she would have gone to Costco with her trunk filled with stuff to unload in my house and shop for me, because I was working. It didn’t matter. She was working, and would have a grocery trunk full of stuff to bring me because I was busy and not even thinking about how busy she was, to make sure she took care of me. And then, all of her other daughters on top of all that, without blinking. That’s Rosalie, she just juggled it all. And then of course, giving speeches for nonprofits, helping the homeless, and taking care of all these other people. And of course, taking care of my father, because he was working as if she had nothing of her own to do. That’s Rosalie.
Alan Fleischmann
I love it. I love it. Obviously, the apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree in this case for both your parents. I should also mention I am a new parent of a Barnard College freshman year, she’s in her first semester. I was thrilled to see that you’re a Barnard grad.
Shelley Zalis
It’s funny because, now, I look back… You know I talk about no regrets. I do regret not appreciating Barnard then. I do need to go back to Barnard and tell them what I wish they instilled in me, because when I went to Barnard, it was Barnard College for Women of Columbia University. And it was Columbia College for Men of Columbia University. Because that’s what it was, right?
But they didn’t really enforce that. It was all about being a woman in a woman’s college. So for me, I wanted to go to Columbia. I didn’t care that it was a college for women. I did not apply to Barnard, I applied to Columbia. I want to go to Columbia University, and there was no option. And so I actually stayed on the Columbia campus, because we didn’t have to stay at Barnard. I only applied to Barnard because I couldn’t apply to Columbia, so I had nothing to do with Barnard. I didn’t take any courses at Barnard — not one, there was no requirement. So I actually did not feel like I went to Barnard. I actually went to Columbia — I took every single course on the Columbia campus and I lived on the Columbia campus, so I actually feel like I went to Columbia University. Then later in life, Columbia became coed and you could have gone to Columbia, or you could have chosen to go to Barnard College for Women. So I actually feel like I went to Columbia University.
Alan Fleischmann
It’s still the case where, I guess, you get a double degree. You’re getting a degree from Columbia and Barnard, which I guess you may or may not have gotten when you were there.
Shelley Zalis
My point is, I don’t feel at all that I had any attachment to Barnard, because I didn’t take a single class at Barnard College for Women. I took every single class on Columbia’s campus. I lived on Columbia’s campus. I was a part of Columbia. So I don’t feel any connection at all to Barnard College for Women.
Alan Fleischmann
We got to change that and bring you back to speak or do something.
Shelley Zalis
When people ask me about Barnard, I do have my degree, but that was the only thing. My attachment is completely to Columbia University. So it’s very interesting, especially for who I am today.
Alan Fleischmann
I would think, based on your journey, that it would have been all because of Barnard that this all happened, in many ways. So it’s interesting that that’s not actually the case. But I will get you back there, then I’ll find my way back there, which will be great. But it sounds like the college experience was a great one for you.
You got involved, I guess right afterwards, with Video Storyboards. Right? That was the first thing?
Shelley Zalis
Yes. But my female empowerment did not come from Barnard. My empowerment came from Rosalie Zalis. What did come from Colombia was, I loved meeting people from different parts of the world, my cultural experience, where I would meet the most interesting people — that was really more psychology — that were pianists, that were orators, that were computer scientists. I remember my girlfriend Erica, whose name was Erica Partisan at the time, was a computer genius. We had mainframes at the time and these big computers that were spitting out huge pieces of paper with little holes in them. I’m 60 years old, so this was a long time ago; we didn’t have laptops or anything like that. And she was a computer wizard as a woman. And I was like, oh my god, she’s just like genius. She would just sit in front of these big computers at the time that I’m like, oh my god.
I discovered these brilliant people on campus. To me, I just loved discovering geniuses who I was mesmerized by. I always say I was never in a textbook. My genius was not in a textbook; I never studied in the library. I found that so boring. I loved meeting people and learning from everyone around me. For me, that was my best college experience. So I got an A plus in people, not an A plus from studying. Although I did get an A plus in Zbigniew Brzezinski’s class, because I found him fascinating. That was the only class I ever got an A-plus in.
Alan Fleischmann
I forgot he was there actually, that’s right.
So, you actually have an interesting story about your first job where you got a bad review, which actually led you to want to start your company.
Shelley Zalis
That was my second job. My first job I aced, that was Video Storyboards. My boss, David, loved me. It was a small company of six people. I stayed there for quite some time. He never gave reviews, so there were no formal reviews. The reviews at Video Storyboards were sitting around drinking wine at night, talking about how we were going to evolve our business. We were six people — five women, one guy — and we’d sit around in a circle, he’d pull wine out of this little refrigerator. We had a brilliant idea jar, and we’d all put our ideas in this little jar, pull them out, and talk about how we were going to evolve. All of our ideas were great ideas. That’s how we did reviews, by just being ourselves. So it was a great experience, I loved that. To this day, I remember the phone number of that company.
Alan Fleischmann
And then what happened with the second one, then?
Shelley Zalis
I got recruited for this job at a company called ASI. I remember going to Dave Vedera at Video Storyboards — and this is a man from India, he wore brown corduroy pants every single day, with red socks, wallabees, and this button-down shirt. That was his uniform to work every day. And I went into his office and said, “Dave, I got recruited for this job at ASI for quantitative research position. What’s quantitative research?” He goes, “Oh, Shelley, it’s everything we do here at Video Storyboards. But it’s more people.” So, we talked to small groups of people. Quantitative research is talking to groups of people of 200-plus. I said, “Well, I got recruited. They pay a lot of money, and I think I should; it’s time for me to fly. I think you gotta let me go. I’ve been here seven years or something. I think I need to take this job. I need the money. I don’t want to leave you, but I think you should encourage me to take this job.” He said, “Okay, it’s time. You’re like a daughter to me. I want you to get this job.”
So I went on the interview and I met this guy, Gerry Lukeman. Gerry Lukeman was the CEO of ASI and I was scared out of my wits end. I walk into this office, and there’s Gerry Lukeman. Now remember, I’m coming from Video Storyboard, with six people, to a company where there were maybe 200 people. It was very intimidating for me. I worked on a typewriter at Video Storyboards. I sat around in a circle with all women, we ate ice cream, and talked about everything. Walking into this office, that felt very formal to me. And there’s Gerry Lukeman in this big office, and he was this handsome man with a presence. I’m coming from a place that was more wallabees and, you know, corduroy pants. And this man in his suit had this cashmere cape, a sweeping cape with his presence. I walk into the office, and on his wall, he has his children, all framed on his wall. I see that and say, “Wow, that’s beautiful.” I can’t believe a man his pictures of his family on his wall, I’m kind of liking that. So I’m calm. I sit down, and he says to me, “So, tell me all about you, who you are.” Didn’t ask me questions about research; he asked me about my family and who I am as a person. So I’m calm, because that’s my kind of person. I know this is my place and I’m going to accept this job if he offers it to me.
Then he takes me into a little room, and he shows me TV commercials. I know right away I’m going to ace this interview, because I’m trained to do this. He says, “Which commercial score’s better?” And I said, “Oh, this one,” and it was a Domino’s Pizza commercial. I said, “this one does better.” He asks why, and I explain. He says, “You’re right. You nailed the interview, you’re hired.” And I said, “Great.” And he says, “And I’m gonna promote you before I even hire you to this senior level position. You’re going to be the boss of a whole team of people. What do you need for the job?” I said, “I need a typewriter and a TV in my office.” He asked why: “I like to watch commercials.” He said, “Done. But I’m not giving you a typewriter, you’re gonna have to learn how to use a computer.” I said, “I don’t use computers.”
Anyways, he gave me a promotion, a triple promotion, before he even hired me. So I go back to my boss, to David, and he says, “I’m so proud of you. But you have to keep in touch with me for the rest of your life.” I said, fine. So I go into my new job. I started this very high level, so unqualified, and I had to grow into my shoes. And that’s how I started at ASI.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. And then when you tried to ASI, how many people were there? Tell us a little bit the early origins of that.
Shelley Zalis
When I started, we might have been like 200 people or something, I don’t know. I started as a senior vice president. I had a really big job, a really big title, I was making a lot of money, for me — I was making nothing at Video Storyboards. So I, all of a sudden, moved into this big job. And I think people didn’t know what to make of me, because I was not a normal quantitative researcher. I knew how to look at ads and, and score it without research, you know, because that’s where I came from. So I already was like a rule breaker, without even knowing that I was a rule breaker. I was very different from a quantitative researcher.
So I came in not normal at the beginning, and no one knew what to make of me there. I was already sort of the CEO’s favorite, where he was inviting me to things. He knew that I was his kind of person and he was my kind of person. He invited me to big events, and I became a business development person, because I loved people and I knew how to win over clients. Because that’s what I used to do with Video Storyboards; I knew how to sit at a table and ask clients what they wanted, what they needed. And I wasn’t a cookie cutter person, which was a very ASI-kind of way to go. So I was already breaking the mold at ASI, with permission, sort of, from Gerry, but not with permission from the prototypical researcher.
Alan Fleischmann
What it sounds like, and what’s so different about you, is that you went there and brought the EQ side of things, that deep connectivity to humans. The firm, obviously, was built on being quantitative and very research-focused. So you brought a whole other layer.
Shelley Zalis
Which, I thought, was what they wanted, because I was hired like that. But quantitative research is very systematic, and you’re supposed to be an order taker. Because market research is so quantitative, so scored, and all about the numbers, it’s all about the what. It’s not about the why, which is how I was trained. It doesn’t fit in a box. I don’t fit in a box, and I did not fit in the ASI box. I was not so black and white.
So all of a sudden, I started becoming very successful in bringing in a lot of new clients, but I was not bringing them in the way I was supposed to. I started adding new prototypes, new tools, new products, new everything. But it wasn’t what the system provided. All of a sudden, I was creating a little chaos, which I thought was a good thing. I started creating innovation in a company that was very black and white. I thought I was this new, refreshing force.
So I sit down for my first review, and it was a six-page, typewritten review. I’m coming in thinking I’m this golden girl. Bill Mole was the president of the company, reporting to Gerry — Gerry didn’t give me the review. The first three lines were very nice: You’re smart, you’re talented, you’re kind, and you’re this and you’re that. So I had a smile on my face. And then: ding, ding, ding, ding. I am used to getting really good, nice things said about me, and I was ripped to shreds. I was speechless. I was, honestly, really shocked. It was things like, “You need to better judge and recognize priorities.” I need to be more focused, to appreciate the range and challenges of the work done by others, to be careful about how sure I am with myself. I need to watch out, because I’m burning bridges. I take things so personally. I need to not take so many people out to lunch. I need to learn to not say yes to clients. I need to, basically, be an order taker.
I remember tears coming down my eyes. I’m 25 or 26. And I thought about my brilliant idea jar, and I remember looking at my boss and thinking one of two things. Either I need to agree with him, because I’m supposed to, or look at him as I did. Oh, and one important detail. He looks at me and said, “We are a research company, and I’m going to put a woman above you who is a researcher.” So basically, he’s demoting me, because I’m more of a business development person. He hopes I understand. I looked at him and I said, “No, I don’t really understand. Because I’m probably one of the most important people in this company, bringing in new business, understanding things, and I am not an order taker. I don’t understand, and you’re making the biggest mistake of your life. And I’m really sorry about that. One day, you’re going to regret this decision.” I said, “I will stay, I will accept the decision. I don’t have a choice. But I won’t last long here. This company is never going to evolve if we stay in this little bubble. I’m sorry to say this, but I can’t just be what you want me to be. I’ll never be able to live in a bubble like this. But that’s your decision.”
Anyways, that was that. And of course, I ended up leaving one day when I had this new idea to pioneer online research. It was that same person; I went to them and said, “I have this crazy idea to migrate research from offline to online.” This was in a day and age where only wealthy old men with broadband were on the internet. That same person, my boss’s boss, and my boss’s boss’s boss, who were all men, said to me, “It’s a good idea, but it’s not the right time. Because nobody is online.”
The following week, I was on a panel with Larry Mock, who was the head of research for Procter & Gamble. All my bosses were in the front row, and I was whispering with Larry Mach. I come off the panel and my boss says to me, “What were you talking to Larry about?” They were all nervous, because of course, I was breaking rules again. I said, “I just asked him, when is the right time to talk to you about moving research from offline to online?” My bosses said, “Well, what did he say?” He had said, “Come next week to talk to me about it.” And I said, “Great.” So my boss has all said, “Great. Paul will go, Peter will go, John will go, Ringo will go, and Starr will go.” And I’m like, “But what about Shelley?” And they said, “Well, you know, it’s a boys club at Procter and Gamble. So that’s the right team to go.” And I said, “Well, if I’m not going, I’m going to cancel the meeting. And you can all wait for the right time.” So of course, Shelley went, and lo and behold, I pioneered online research. And that’s when I left ASI and started OTX.
Alan Fleischmann
And how did that happen, the OTX part?
Shelley Zalis
Well, that’s crazy story. But had I not followed my heart and finally believed in myself… I knew I couldn’t wait and watch. It’s interesting, because the woman that got promoted above me in that review is nowhere in research today. I am where I am. And Bill is a very good friend of mine, still today. And I said to Bill, “Do you regret that review you gave me?” He’s a good friend. And he said, “No.” And I said, “Why?” He said, “Because had I not done that for you, you would never be where you are today.” Because I still have that review. I still kept that; it hurt so much. But it was the greatest kick in the butt for me. Because I will never be like everyone else. I will always have to follow my heart and be who I am.
Oscar Wilde said, “Be yourself, because everyone else is taken.” I am not a follower, I will always be a leader. If you follow, you’re the same, and I’m not the same. Being a leader is scary. You’ve got to take risks, and it’s why I wrote this saying: you’ve got to be the first, the second, and the third. The first is the innovator; you’ve got to take the risks, you’ve got to take the chances, you’ve got to break the rules, you’ve got to get in trouble, you’ve got to get that bad review. Because you’re breaking the mold, you’re not following what others are doing. You get in trouble sometimes. The second is the copycat; the copycat just copies what you do, but they don’t know what’s under the hood, so they never win. The third is the sweeper; the third rides in on the shiny white horse. The ecosystem is already created, they get the funding, and they win the game. So I always said to myself, “You’ve got to be the first, you got to be the second and you got to be the third.” Because nobody was ever going to beat me at my own game. And that was what I learned from that review.
I had to take the hit — it hurt me. He hurt me. But he helped me, and he knows that he did. And that’s what he said to me. So he applauds himself, because he helped me in my career. I left ASI to start OTX, and that’s what happened. I decided I have to be my own boss. I’m not going to wait for other people to give me permission, because they never did, so I had to be my own boss and make my own rules so that I could win my own game. And that’s what happened. I started OTX, the Online Testing Exchange, and boom. I had to raise my own money, which I did myself, because I didn’t want to be dependent on anyone else.
Alan Fleischmann
So when you raised your money, you raised it how?
Shelley Zalis
Well, what was really funny was that I needed a million dollars. No one believed I was right; there was no ecosystem. No one was online, so the idea was very ahead of itself at the time. It was the first, there was no ecosystem at all. Everyone told me I was crazy, no one believed I was right. And that guy Larry Mock, from Procter, I actually took him up on it. I worked for probably 12 brands and pioneered it with Procter & Gamble, so it wasn’t a bad thing. I worked with the entertainment business. I had to convince the movie business to go with me, which I did — which is a whole other story in and of itself, but I know how much time we’ve got. I can tell you so many stories, which are fascinating. I don’t think anyone really knows all of these stories of how I created a business that didn’t exist. So many men tried to take credit for it, as well.
But I needed a million dollars. I met this young kid while I was at ASI, Trevor Kaufman. He was at KPE, Kaufman-Patricof Enterprises. When I was at ASI, I used to test websites for usability. And I loved Trevor because he was creative and out of the box, he didn’t take no for an answer. And we tested 200-page websites for Tampax and for all kinds of things. I just found him so clever. So I went to him and I said, “We need to create a website for research, but I have no money to do this. Here’s the deal: the day that I get the first client, I will give you a million dollars.” He was 21 years old at the time, and he took took a chance on me said okay.
We spent six months in a basement building this thing. I went to Nielsen, and I said, “I have this crazy idea to pioneer online research.” They loved it. My father and my husband both said, “We’ll give you half a million dollars each to do this” before we went to Nielsen. I said to myself, “That’s a good idea. But if I take a half a million dollars from my father and from my husband, I will never be able to push the envelope. I’ll never take chances because I’d be too afraid of losing their money.” I mean, because nobody believed that I was right. So I didn’t take their money. I was afraid. I went to Nielsen, they gave me a million dollars. And I gave them 80% of the company for a million dollars. I gave that million dollars to Trevor. So he became a millionaire at 21 years old. I kept my promise.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. And that was at the very beginning?
Shelley Zalis
It was AC Nielsen Real Research at the time. That was how I first started. So I sold the same company three times: It was called Real Research when I started, this is way back when. Then it became OTX after that. That’s how I really pioneered at the beginning, then it became OTX later.
Alan Fleischmann
I love it. Then you owned the company and sold it three times. You said that when Ipsos bought it, that was the last.
Shelley Zalis
Yeah, that was the third.
Alan Fleischmann
Obviously, that must have been a thrilling moment when you sold it as well. But it also much have been bittersweet, too.
Shelley Zalis
Yeah, it was. Because I started it as Real Research, and then I went to IFILM where I started again with Skip Paul and Kevin Wendell. And then from there, I sold it to Bob Pittman and Strauss Zelnick, which is pretty amazing. Then from there, we sold it to Ipsos, that was in 2010. I stayed at Ipsos until 2015, and then I started the Female Quotient.
Alan Fleischmann
I don’t want to run out of time before we get there. How did that come to be? I know there’s a story behind that, the moment you realized you wanted to start that. Tell us a little bit about that. Was it before you sold it to Ipsos, or was it just right after?
Shelley Zalis
So I sold to Ipsos — I needed to go global, as OTX was getting so big. We created online research. I was the mother of that invention, and that was pretty remarkable. Then I was running global innovation in three countries for Ipsos, I was the only female CEO in a top 25 research company during my entire career. I realized it was time to give back the generosity that I wish I had when rising the ranks as a top woman in my field, and I started something called the Girls Lounge while I was at Ipsos.
I wanted to go to CES, the Consumer Electronics Show, and there was no space for women supporting women. So while I was at Ipsos, I started the girls lounge, it was called the Ipsos Girls Lounge. The name came out of, you know, the opposite of a boy’s club. I wanted to go to CES and I heard that, out of 150,000 people there, less than 3% were women. So it’s pretty intimidating, even though I was a very powerful woman in market research. I knew everybody in research, but I didn’t know anyone in technology, and I wanted to get market researchers into technology. So I called a few girlfriends that I knew, I said, “Go with me to CES.”
So I called five girlfriends. And I said, if they knew other women that want to go to CES, invite them. And 24 hours later, 50 women showed up at CES and we walked the floor. Two remarkable things happened. Number one: every single guys head turned like, “Where the hell did all of you women come from?” That’s when I coined the phrase “power of the pack.” A woman alone has power; collectively, we have impact, like 50 powerful women walking the floor at CES. When you’re one woman, you’re invisible. Fifty women was remarkable. The second thing that happened was, I was surrounded by women just like me, and I felt powerful. It was this confident moment. We talked about work-life balance, and we talked about impostor syndrome. By the way, it was power of the purse; we all were powerful women with tons of money. We went back to my hotel room, which was a one-bedroom suite. Next thing you knew, we were all in my closet and we were all like doing power deals. I called my hair person from LA and said, “Come on, let’s do hair and makeup. Let’s be girls and girlfriends.” And it was just fun.
Next thing you know, on day two, we were 100 women. We were multiplying because every woman was paying it forward and inviting their girlfriends. By day three, I had the penthouse suite at the Four Seasons, and we had food and drinks. More business was done in that lounge than ever before. Today, eight years later, we have 750,000 women across 100 countries, across every industry. We’re doing 70 pop-up lounges in every industry conference.
Under that umbrella, once women started supporting women, I evolved it from Girls Lounge to Equality Lounge, so that we became a lounge of conscious leaders, men and women that are all talking about changing the equation and closing the gap. So it has evolved to Equality Lounges where industry leaders come together to talk about how to change the equation, to close the gap. It’s where we are all about women in the workplace. But it’s all around, how do we change the equation and close the gap in the Fortune 500?
Now we have C-suite leaders who come together, men and women, across every equation — from marketing, media advertising, research, technology, sports, finance, and cybersecurity. We are in every industry conference, from CES, to Cannes Lions, to the NBA All-Star game, to the NFL, to the World Economic Forum. The craziest thing is, when we got invited to the World Economic Forum seven years ago, my invitation was, “We want you to come, but you might not feel welcome.” Today, we are in a two-story glass house. We are the destination for equality at the World Economic Forum, where all the world leaders, from country leaders, to Fortune 500 leaders, to pretty much everyone else, comes for standing-room only. The conversations are all around closing the gap for women in leadership, to women of color in the boardroom, to caregiving to the wage gap… Really, every conversation about why it take 132 years, when it needs to only take five, to close the gender gap in the Fortune 500.
Alan Fleischmann
And you’ve got an advisory services side of you as well, right? Is it a separate company, or is that part of the Female Quotient?
Shelley Zalis
It’s all under the Female Quotient. We now offer Equality Lounges, with pretty much every Fortune 500 company supporting it. We have our advisory services; getting CEOs to work on, prioritize, and create accountability to close the gender gap, to an finding talent in business, bringing visibility and accountability for women in C-suite leadership, to helping our content business. We have services now on all the topics, from how to close the care gap, to how to close the leadership gap, to how to close the board gap, to how to close all of the gaps that we keep talking about, but to actually do it with solutions for change across the board.
Alan Fleischmann
And you how many people have working there now?
Shelley Zalis
We’re over 25 full-time. We have an amazing army of amazing people working across the board, in over 100 countries.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s a great board of advisors.
Shelley Zalis
Also, we have a freelance group of advisers, women that really make it happen from Fortune 500 companies. They’re all of our original women that are that pack. We really have an amazing power of the pack, of women that really are making a difference every single day.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s amazing. And what would your dream right now? Like, what is the ultimate success where you’re taking the Female Quotient?
Shelley Zalis
To close the gender gap, to not have to be talking about this anymore. Equality for all in the workplace. And we’re now working on something called the flipping point. You know, there’s the tipping point, where you wait and watch. Then there’s the flipping point, where it’s actions for change. We talk about CEOs with a moonshot mindset, it’s really CEOs with an equality mindset, where we are putting our money where our mouth is, walking the talk, and actually closing the gender gap in five years, not 132 — the World Economic Forum said with the latest report that it will take 132 years to close the gender gap. We won’t be here, so to me, that is giving us all an excuse to do nothing. If we actually put our minds where it matters, we put men on the moon in 10 years — that should have been women, if we had spacesuits. We have self-driving cars. We have a vaccine for the pandemic. We should be able to close the gap, because we have the data. It’s all intentionality. So if we have a conscious mindset, there is no reason we cannot close the gap within five years.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. Five years is too far away, but yet a lot better. What can those who are listening to “Leadership Matters” right now do to be part of this army?
Shelley Zalis
Join us. I mean, we’re ready for everyone to join us. And we’re very excited. I mean, equality is what it’s all about, equal is equal. 20% is not equal. 30% is not equal. We’re all in this together.
Alan Fleischmann
And there are many ways by getting involved — there are lots of ways on your website. They can just chime in and get involved there?
Shelley Zalis
We love it. We’re one, big open book. Every Lounge is free, join us — we’re all over the world. We’ve got virtual conversations happening, we have a lounge in the metaverse. We are at every conference, basically. We love everyone participating in social. So, there’s a million ways. I’m available. So everyone can reach out and find us anywhere and everywhere. So please, join us.
Alan Fleischmann
Then also, what’s the roadblock that you think that all of us could be involved with overcoming? Is it a mindset roadblock? Is it a communications roadblock? Is it a structural roadblock? What is the roadblock that we need to be focused on? Is it all the above?
Shelley Zalis
I think it’s consciousness, I think it’s all a mindset. I think we look at what’s not versus what is, because there is nothing actually holding us back. Truthfully, there is nothing. We have the data. When people say it’s unconscious bias, we’re conscious. Once conscious, it’s a choice. Either you do it or you don’t.
I talked about Gerry Lukeman before; he did something for me that I will never forget. People always say, “I’m trying to do something.” There’s no such thing as trying, you either do it or you don’t. He took a pen when I was sitting in his office, and he said, “Okay, Shelly, try to pick up the pen.” And he threw it down. He said, “Try to pick it up.” You either pick it up or you can’t. Try to close the gender gap; you either do or you don’t. If you know that women are paid 80 cents on the dollar, Black women 64 cents on the dollar, and Latinas 53 cents on the dollar, what are you gonna do? Close it or don’t.
Why is Sally paid less than Peter for the same job? Why, if Sally is doing the same job as Peter, should she get paid less? How hard is it to cut the same check for her? Should that take 132 years, to figure out how to cut the check? I mean, hello? What’s hard is to understand is, “Well, Peter has been working many more years than her, because Sally wasn’t in the workplace as long as he was, so I have to figure out how to justify that.” Well, I’ll tell you how. Close the door of inequity and open the new one. So today, Sally’s going to come to work. Give her the same paycheck. Is that hard? No. You just have to justify it.
That’s problem one. Number two is leadership. Oh, are there not enough women to put in leadership jobs? I’m telling you, right now, there are! Will that take you 132 years?
Alan Fleischmann
Nope.
Shelley Zalis
Okay, Black women? “Well, there’s no open positions on the board.” Well, I’ll tell you right now, then get rid of some of the white men on the boards and make the position available. Do you want to wait 132 years to make the job open? I’ll tell you right now what to do. Cut some of the people off and open up the board seats. “Well, that won’t be fair.” Well, okay. Does that take 132 years? We figured out how to create a vaccine in a year. I think that’s more complicated.
So I don’t think it’s 132-years complicated.
Alan Fleischmann
No.
You’ve been so inspiring, Shelley. You’re inspiring in your words and in your energy, it’s amazing. Even on radio, you’ve come through.
You’ve had such an amazing career. What advice, in just a sentence or two, would you give to young people? Especially young women — as a father of two daughters, I want to hear from you — but also, to anybody who is listening right now, who wants to be a change agent and wants to follow in your footsteps? What would you tell them?
Shelley Zalis
Believe in yourself. Follow your heart. Never take a no; there’s always a yes, you just have to find it. And sometimes, you’re gonna have to zig when others zag. But most importantly, never wait and watch, because your individual DNA and your individual identity could be breakthrough.
If I actually let that review stop me, I wouldn’t be who I am, and I will never ever forget that review. It was the best thing that ever happened to me, but in that moment, it hurt and I was too young, I think, to understand it. But thank god my mother gave me the confidence to believe in myself to push through that moment so that I could be where I am today. I look back and say thank you, Mom, for giving me that love of myself. So that I could own my voice, and say I am proud of myself and I am going to follow my heart, and go the hard path, and be me. Sometimes, being yourself and not doing what others do is not easy. But I promise you, it’s the right decision. So don’t follow your head. Always follow your heart — it will lead you where you ultimately need to go.
Alan Fleischmann
You’ve been listening to “Leadership Matters” on SiriusXM and on leadershipmattersshow.com. I’m your host, Alan Fleischmann. We have had an amazing hour with Shelley Zalis, a CEO, thought leader, equality champion, role model, and person who brings not only ideas and ideals, but energy and outcomes to everything she touches. And we’re so grateful that you’re on the show, and looking forward to a longer conversation later as well. Thank you.