Sylvia Mathews Burwell

President, American University; Former HHS Secretary

This university aligns around mission and this issue of changemaking. That's what creates community here.

Summary

This week on "Leadership Matters," Sylvia Mathews Burwell joins Alan to discuss her career as a political campaigner, government official, nonprofit executive, and current role as president of American University.

A native of Hinton, West Virginia, Sylvia is a Rhodes Scholar who served in the Clinton and Obama administrations in a variety of roles, ranging the Office of Management and Budget, National Economic Council, and Department of Health and Human Services. She also played a key role in scaling the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation into the leader in global development that it has become today.

Alan and Sylvia cover a variety of topics over the course of their conversation, from the lessons Sylvia learned growing up in a Greek-American family in rural West Virginia to the challenges she tackled over the course of her career in government. As president of AU, Sylvia has been working to invigorate the university by articulating a mission focused on changemaking. American higher education, in her view, will soon have to undergo a process of differentiation. By leaning into the strengths of individual institutions, she believes higher education can successfully adapt to overcome the challenges it faces.

Mentions & Resources in this Episode

• Jay Rockefeller

• Archie Epps

• Kay Spiritual Life Center

• Cynthia Miller-Idriss

Guest Bio

Sylvia M. Burwell is American University's 15th president and the first woman to serve as president. A visionary leader with experience in the public and private sectors, President Burwell brings to American University a commitment to education and research, the ability to manage large and complex organizations, and experience helping to advance solutions to some of the world's most pressing challenges. Burwell joined AU on June 1, 2017, succeeding Neil Kerwin.

Burwell has held two cabinet positions in the United States government. She served as the 22nd secretary of the US Department of Health and Human Services from 2014 to 2017. During her tenure, she managed a trillion-dollar department that includes the National Institutes of Health, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Food and Drug Administration, and the Medicaid and Medicare programs; oversaw the successful implementation of the Affordable Care Act; and led the department’s responses to the Ebola and Zika outbreaks. Before that, she served as the director of the Office of Management and Budget, working with Congress to negotiate a two-year budget deal following the 2013 government shutdown. In both roles she was known as a leader who worked successfully across the aisle and focused on delivering results for the American people.

Her additional government experience is extensive and includes roles as deputy director of the Office of Management and Budget, deputy chief of staff to the president, chief of staff to the secretary of the Treasury, and special assistant to the director of the National Economic Council.

Burwell has held leadership positions at two of the largest foundations in the world. She served 11 years at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, including roles as the chief operating officer and president of the Global Development Program. She then served as president of the Walmart Foundation and ran its global Women’s Economic Empowerment efforts. Her private sector experience includes service on the Board of Directors of MetLife.

She earned a bachelor’s degree in Government from Harvard University and a BA in Philosophy, Politics and Economics from the University of Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar.

A second-generation Greek American, Burwell is a native of Hinton, West Virginia. She and her husband Stephen Burwell are the parents of two young children.

Clips from This Episode

• Sylvia reflects on her time in the Gates Foundation

• Sylvia on the importance of technology being publicly accessible around the globe

• Sylvia on the ways AU attempting to confront and prevent extremism in America

Episode Transcription

Alan Fleischmann

You're listening to “Leadership Matters” on SiriusXM and leadershipmattersshow.com. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann.

There are a few college alumni who are fortunate enough to interview the president of their alma mater on-air. And there are a few university presidents as impressive as my friend, American University’s Sylvia Burwell. My guest today is a tried and tested leader with senior experiences in all walks of public service. She is a former cabinet official and a lifelong public servant. Sylvia is the 15th president and first female head of American University. Since assuming her post, she has spearheaded the university's Change Can't Wait campaign and done much to elevate the school's global standing. Before joining American University, she served as the 22nd US Secretary of Health and Human Services under President Obama. At HHS, she led the federal government's response to the Ebola epidemic and Zika virus outbreak, and she expanded the Affordable Care Act's coverage of uninsured Americans.

Before HHS, Sylvia served as the director of President Obama's Office of Management and Budget, where she guided the executive branch through the first federal government shutdown in nearly two decades. Previously, she has served as the Walmart Foundation President and held several executive positions, including a top one at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. She's a dear friend, someone I admire greatly. I'm looking forward to discussing her impactful leadership and her journey over the years.

Sylvia, welcome to “Leadership Matters.” We're going to have a great conversation today.

Sylvia Burwell

Alan, thank you so much for having me, my friend.

Alan Fleischmann

It's gonna be fun to talk with you.

I am always fascinated by your journey and your past — your young life. I should say, since you and I are around the same age, your very young life. You were born and raised in Hinton, West Virginia, a town of 3000 people. Your family was deeply rooted in the community. Your mother was a teacher — I’ve met your mom — who later served as mayor. Your father filled in as a minister in the local church. What was your family and home life like? And there's a strong Greek heritage here, which you might not know when you hear your name. But I know, knowing you, it's a big part of your childhood.

Sylvia Burwell

Well, maybe we'll start with that. I am the granddaughter of four Greek immigrants that all came to this country. I'm a second-generation immigrant, and I think it's an important part of the definition of who I am, what I do, and how I think about things, in some pretty important ways.

My grandparents came to this country for a better life for their children and grandchildren. And we have been so fortunate to be a part of the American Dream. An essential part of that has been about education, and that is a big part of why I am where I am today. Another big part of being an immigrant, and coming to this country is the desire to give back, to be a part of building. So the questions of service and engagement are something that I grew up with in my hometown.

I like to say, my dad was a member of every funny hat group that exists. My dad was a Lion. My dad was an Elk. My dad was a Shriner. He was a member of every one of those civic organizations. My mother was president of the church women for 26 years. So I grew up in a family and a household where the idea of service and giving back was definitional. At the Matthews house on Halloween, you first needed to go trick or treat for UNICEF with those little boxes — for those of you that know, those little boxes where you collected coins for children around the world. So from four to six you trick or treated for UNICEF. Then, and only then, could you go back and get candy.

Alan Fleischmann

I love that. And then, I know you have a sister, but you have more than one sister, right?

Sylvia Burwell

No, just one sister.

Alan Fleischmann

Who's the older sister?

Sylvia Burwell

My sister is older. Though I'm afraid that so many times, people… We both live in Washington, DC. They'll hear our voices, we sound so much alike that people think it's me. And often, they think she has my younger sister, I'm sad to say.

Alan Fleischmann

Well, that's just because of your position, maybe. I don't know.

Sylvia Burwell

She looks younger.

Alan Fleischmann

I won't accept that. I won’t accept it.

But your father was a minister, also?

Sylvia Burwell

He was a lay reader in the church, we were very active in the church. My entire family were baptized Greek Orthodox, but there wasn't a Greek church in my town. This actually happened in my mother's hometown and my father’s hometown: The Episcopal Church allowed the Greek priests to come and baptize, do weddings, funerals, all those kinds of occasions. And so we actually became Episcopalians, because that was the church that afforded our church things when we needed to do things.

So my parents were very active. My father was the lay reader, which meant that he would deliver the sermons and do the service. My church in my hometown — I'm from a town of about 3000 people — our church was such a small-town church, it's a mission. So often, we didn't have a full-time priest. So my dad would do the filling in. My sister was the organist, she played the organ. I was the crucifer, which meant I carried the cross. And I also was the acolyte, which meant I lit all the candles. And as I said, my mother was president of the church women. So she was in charge of coffee hour after church.

Alan Fleischmann

That's amazing. Now you say 3000 people, is it still that small today?

Sylvia Burwell

It's 2600 these days.

Alan Fleischmann

Wow. And you have family there still?

Sylvia Burwell

Yes, my mother lives there. And I was fortunate — we're taping this right after Memorial Day weekend — I was fortunate to go home and see my mother, who is still living there in Hinton, West Virginia. The children and my husband, Stephen, we all went to West Virginia, saw my best friends, and spent time with my mom in our little hometown, and observed Memorial Day there.

Alan Fleischmann

That sounds so magical, actually. I bet the Fourth of July, Memorial Day weekends, these moments of getting together are probably really special in that town.

Sylvia Burwell

They are quite special. My town is on three rivers and a lake, the New River and the Greenbrier River. Our town is the newest member of the National Rivers and Parks system, the national system. The New River Gorge system, as it's been recently named, so that means a lot for my little town. The mayor of my little town is… My best friend growing up, it’s her husband, Jack Scott. And Jack had made these beautiful things that hang from the lampposts in the town that honor our veterans. So it was special, because so many of those people, I know the pictures, I know the names, and I know the people that are being honored for their service to our country.

Alan Fleischmann

How far away is Hinton from Washington, DC?

Sylvia Burwell

It's a four-and-a-half hour drive. I would really recommend it to anyone listening in the Washington, DC area. A beautiful place to go and spend your time. And spend your money.

Alan Fleischmann

That’s really good, you should actually run for mayor.

I will say, the way you describe it and your incredible passion for it is contagious. It makes all of us want to be part of a small town growing up.

Sylvia Burwell

You know, it was a very special experience. One of the things that we did on the Saturday of Memorial Day weekend is, we actually had a yard sale at my mother's. Part of that is helping the children understand lots of different things, we think they're important lessons. So we had a yard sale. But in going through things, I came upon a letter. And it was a letter from Mr. Charles Breyers, who at that time was chairman of one of the two boards of the banks, one of the two banks in my little town. He had written me a letter because I was captain of the current events team, we had competed and it was on the local TV stations. He had sent me a letter of congratulations about how proud he was that we had represented our town so well.

Just growing up in a small town like that, there really is nothing like it in terms of the sense of community and the sense of support that you get.

Alan Fleischmann

Now, your four grandparents were all immigrants to the United States, and they were all Greek. How did your family get to West Virginia?

Sylvia Burwell

So, my grandparents on my father's side, my grandfather there — my maiden name was Matthews, but when we came through Ellis Island, it was Mathiopoulos. But at Ellis Island, it became Matthews, my grandfather became Pete Matthews. He came and he wanted to eventually settle in New York. But what happened was, he got himself out to Detroit and learned to work on cars, learned those skills. He was making his way back on the railroad and came to the town where I was born and raised, which was a railroad town at that time. The skills he'd learned in Detroit, he could apply to repairing railroad cars. So he worked and did that until he made enough money to, you guessed it, start a restaurant.

He was betrothed to a woman in Sparta and he was going back to get the woman that he was betrothed to, to bring her to the United States. But he met a gentleman on the boat who said, “Well, can you just stay in Athens for one night? We'll hang out.” That was the night he met the woman who is my grandmother. He never really made it to Sparta and he brought my grandmother, who's from Athens, to that town.

My mother's parents, different story. That grandfather came over, he was 18 years old from the island of Zakynthos, which is near Corfu. He came over to this country at the beginning of World War One, but he didn't speak English, so they sent him to the mines in West Virginia to lay track for the war effort. He laid track in the mines until he made enough money to start a restaurant.

These are different towns that my parents are from. I'm from Hinton, West Virginia. My mother was born and raised in Williamson, West Virginia, which is called The Heart of the Billion-Dollar Coal Fields. So then, that grandfather — there were a couple of other Greeks in town. And that other Greek, his wife had a brother that wanted to marry a gal in Greece. But he couldn't marry her, because her older sister was not married. So, trying to help her brother out, she has my grandfather, in Williamson, West Virginia, write letters to the older sister. They write letters, he proposes, and her father — she's from a very rural village — takes her on a boat to Paris. He takes a boat to Paris. He lays eyes on her for the first time, they've written letters, and they're married.

It turns out — we have the marriage certificate, my mother and one of my cousins and father went to the place, and it actually was where Christian Dior is located in modern times. That's where the Justice of the Peace was at that time when they were married.

Alan Fleischmann

Did you know all four grandparents?

Sylvia Burwell

My grandfather on my father's side died before I was 1. So I didn't know him. I was born, but I didn't know him because I was so little.

Alan Fleischmann

Those are amazing stories, the making of a great film. I can imagine these, you know, “On my way to Sparta, I stopped in Athens.” Then the grandparent is in Paris. This is an amazing, amazing story of how they came. I would never have thought that there would be a nascent Greek community of any kind in West Virginia. You’ve got roots on both sides.

On roots, actually — when I think of you, I think of someone who also has an extraordinary political antenna. I know that you showed your interest in politics at a very young age; I think you volunteered on Senator Jay Rockefeller’s gubernatorial campaign while you were in grade school?

Sylvia Burwell

Yes. So the first time he runs, I am very, very young. I am 6, 8 years old. I still have my Jay button from the first time he runs. But the second time he runs, more mature politically, I was in the sixth grade. My friends and I had started a newspaper, it was called the Central News and World Report. Central was the name of our elementary school. So we started a newspaper, and this was with mimeograph paper, I don't know if you remember. We had a teacher who was a saint and would type at it — because you had to type on the mimeograph things and we couldn't type in that sort of thing. But we could write the articles.

So we garnered an interview with then-candidate Jay Rockefeller running for second time, when he's running for governor of the state of West Virginia. His first interview when he arrives in Summers County, our county, is on the memorial building steps. We had our cassette tape recorder — you might have to explain that to others, in terms of the generation — and our little reporter notebooks. We did an interview, and we think that was a turning point for him. As we look back…

Alan Fleischmann

Your interview made the difference.

Sylvia Burwell

The interview, I think, started the momentum, along with the article in the Central News and World Report.

Alan Fleischmann

And he had a better outcome.

Sylvia Burwell

He had a much better outcome. I don't know, I'm just saying.

Alan Fleischmann

I think you're right. You’ve got something there.

But I'm curious, what made you… I will say that, I when I was 11 years old, I volunteered on Paul Sarbanes first run for the Senate in Maryland. When I learned this about you, I did not realize that you were this newspaper reporter-editor-publisher, but also a volunteer on the campaign. You were even younger than I was. I'm just curious, did that come from table talk at the dinner table?

Sylvia Burwell

Yes. It also came from my best friend Christy — the one whose husband is now mayor, her father originally ran for county commissioner. We campaigned for him, we went around town campaigning for him.

Active engagement was something expected in our household, in terms of talk about issues, what's happening in local government, what was happening in national government. At my little school, I remember we did a straw poll when Ford and Carter ran for president. The whole school did a straw poll. So it was something we were aware of and thought about, we wanted to be engaged in the substance of issues. We believed that, if you want to make change, be engaged, be involved. That was why we started the newspaper.

Alan Fleischmann

I love that, it's amazing. When I think of you, I do think of you as always being engaged, always being involved. It doesn't always have to be political, but you're involved in community, you’re involved, obviously, nationally.

Sylvia Burwell

And, you know, that is in the period of 1976. Around that time, we actually wrote — I guess we were in either the fifth or the sixth grade — we wrote a performance of the history of the nation. One of our classmates was Richard Nixon, we had this time machine that we would travel with. We painted it in Christie's basement, this red, white, and blue time machine. I played the role of Thomas Jefferson: “When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary,” you know. Still remember my lines.

So this was something that we were just engaged in. You participated in parades. We decorated our bikes, we decorated our skateboards. You were a participant in all the things that were going on.

Alan Fleischmann

I love that, and you stayed active. Did you run for office in high school?

Sylvia Burwell

I was student body president when I was in high school.

Alan Fleischmann

Why am I not surprised? That's cool.

So then, you graduate from high school — student body president, you already had the title that you have now. You decided to go to college. Obviously, we know you went to Harvard, you did a lot of really cool things there. Was that a big decision? That must have been a big decision.

Sylvia Burwell

It's funny, because I have to credit my sister for the courage and the bigger decision. Because my sister applied to West Virginia, University of Virginia, Tech, University of Kentucky, and Harvard. We weren't aware of the Ivy League, any of those kinds of concepts, in terms of schools and that sort of thing. So it was my sister, who in truth made the bigger leap, the bigger decision to try something that we didn't really know anything about. To apply to get in, to do it. So I have to really tribute my sister. I then learned so much from her, her path, and her journey, because she's four years older. So I saw the whole thing, and then I applied afterwards. So Stephanie, I think, is the real leader here.

Alan Fleischmann

So when you went to Harvard, she wasn't there anymore?

Sylvia Burwell

No. My parents believed we would go to college; they didn't quite think that we would do it in the way we did it, but they put us four years apart so they could pay for college. And they did end up paying for college forever because of what we chose.

Alan Fleischmann

Exactly, Forever they were paying for college. The good news is, I guess, it wasn't the same time. So it wasn't a double tuition. But it was certainly some long years of tuition, it sounds like. But that's amazing.

While you were there, you did a number of internships, research positions, political campaigns. So tell us a little bit about that transition, what was that like to go from Hinton to Cambridge? Besides that it was a culture shock for you, I'm curious whether you loved Harvard and the experience of being there, because you certainly got involved.

Sylvia Burwell

Yes, I loved Harvard and I feel so privileged and honored to have had that experience. And the experience always: the academic experience, in terms of the intellectual challenge and the rigor and the learning that I did in the classroom; the learning that I did externally, in terms of the activities. I was on the Coop board, which is the bookstore, I was the student representative on the Co-op board. I worked on the Harvard 350th anniversary, I planned the event with Bill Bennett and Derek Bok doing a debate. I was fortunate to be the president of the Hasty Pudding Club. So those activities, and then the friends and people that I learned from, my classmates and that sort of thing, so many of them still friends with today. As a matter of fact, this Friday, I will be heading to my 35th college reunion.

Alan Fleischmann

Wow. That's amazing. I’ll tell you, the best bookstore in America still the Coop in Cambridge. I go there with our daughters when we go to Boston, we will go to Cambridge and go to the bookstore. It's one of the great bookstores left, there aren’t many great ones left. I will spend hours there.

Sylvia Burwell

I’m glad that the tradition continues, having served on the board.

Alan Fleischmann

But you did other internships and research positions. What was your major when you were in college?

Sylvia Burwell

My major was government. During that period of time, I did a number of different things. I was an LBJ intern on the Hill for one summer and came here to Washington, DC, and worked for Congressman Nick Joe Rahall. I learned all about what it means to be a member, I did lots of correspondence that summer. I can even remember, it was called a D1B, it was a thank-you for a thank-you. I wrote thank-yous for thank-yous. As the Congressman explained to me, “Sylvia, it is the bread and butter.”

I also wrote a report for the Congressman on banking consolidation, because that was happening. Then another summer, I studied in Greece at the Institute of Balkan studies. I use the term study loosely, in terms of my summer in Greece.

Alan Fleischmann

Was that your first time going to Greece at that point, or had you been going as a family?

Sylvia Burwell

We had gone once. Our situation wasn't such that… There are families that go every summer and that sort of thing. When I was in the seventh grade — I remember because we left literally as I was finishing a math competition — we went on a trip to Greece. My parents took us and we went to Greece.

Alan Fleischmann

So that was a different kind of trip than the summer that you did on your own.

Sylvia Burwell

Very different, very different.

Alan Fleischmann

But you met family as well?

Sylvia Burwell

It's interesting, that trip we didn't. But we have since gone back, because the family that exists is in Zakynthos on the island. We were staying on the mainland, mainly, and Zakynthos isn't one of the islands that you always visit. But we have gone back to visit the family. And I have taken our children to visit my mother's family on Zakynthos.

Alan Fleischmann

And do you speak Greek?

Sylvia Burwell

Very little. We took my mother for her 75th birthday, and we like to joke that, between my mother, my sister, and myself, we have a working Greek vocabulary.

Alan Fleischmann

That’s actually not bad, that’s good teamwork.

I'm curious whether you ever thought about running for office. Having been so politically engaged; you were student body president in high school, then you go to college and you didn't turn away from politics. It sounds like you were very engaged then as well. Have you thought about running for office at one point?

Sylvia Burwell

It's funny, because I often get asked that question, but I haven't thought it. I've been asked the question, so ‘thought about it’ is a funny phrase, but thought about it in the sense of, is that something that I think I should or would like to do?

I believe you run for office when you're going to get something done. When you know what you want to do, when you know what you're trying to do. I just have not, at any point, thought, “Oh, I want to run for office to get X done.” I have been able and fortunate that, for many of the things and the change that I want to see, either doing it through a non-elected place or roles and positions. The work that I've done in philanthropy, or the work that I'm now doing in education. I think about what I do in terms of, “Okay, what is it I'm trying to get done? What's the impact I want to have?”

Alan Fleischmann

There are some people who just wake up and they want to be part of the campaign, they want to run for something. It sounds like that wasn't your driving force. Doing something, but not running for something. Which is great.

Now, anything in college, in the whole Harvard experience that you'd want to mention? Because I see your eyes light up when you talk about your college years. Your eyes light up when you talk with your high school years, so you were very blessed. It's very clear to me why you are so committed to education.

Sylvia Burwell

I loved it.

Alan Fleischmann

You clearly loved it.

Sylvia Burwell

I loved it. I love learning. Wherever, however, travel, I love learning. I love the act of learning, that clicking that occurs in the putting together things and what that does.

I enjoyed my time at Harvard, and as I said, it was an incredible experience in terms of the classroom experience. I mean, I still remember classes, whether it was cellular communications —when this was taught, cellphones didn't exist. It was about cells, and I remember elements of that. My daughter was doing something on a periodic table in her eighth grade, and I remembered the derivation of the table that we had to learn how to do at that time. I still have I still have some of my books from college.

Alan Fleischmann

You’ve held on to them?

Sylvia Burwell

Yes, I still have my Shakespeare. I took Shakespeare, which was a famous class to take at Harvard. There were a number of those classes that were just incredible. Darkness at Noon, which was an art history course. I still have my books. I still used that understanding wherever I traveled in the world, having learned about the art. I even took an intro to music class. When a madrigal comes on, I'm like, “I know that’s a madrigal.” So I love learning.

Alan Fleischmann

I believe that one of the greatest things about you is, you have such an extraordinary confidence, but you're a great listener, and you have great humility. When I think about you, I always think about how you got that humility. It's your curiosity, you do have an insatiable interest to learn from somebody else. And I don't see any difference between somebody who might be coming to serve you a cup of coffee at a diner — maybe that’s the restaurant business part of you, the background you had with your grandparents — or if someone comes in as a professor. You ask questions, and you want to learn the answers.

I think that makes all of us young, if you have that trait. But in your case, as a leader, it's a really formidable way of making sure, I guess, you're in check. You're always going to be able to ask the question, that's the art, but you're never going to assume you know, all the answers. That's a pretty powerful way to lead.

And it makes you young, forever. My dad always said, “As long as you're curious, you never age.”

Sylvia Burwell

Yes, you will continue to grow.

Alan Fleischmann

And you’re humble, which is amazing, considering all that you've done.

Here's another example. You leave Harvard and decided, “What am I going to do now?” You became a Rhodes Scholar. So you've crossed the pond and now you're in the UK. That had to be very different than your experience in Cambridge, very different than your experience in West Virginia. Culturally, and I imagine, even academically, it was a different thing. And you made great friends there too, I know.

Sylvia Burwell

Absolutely. Many, many great friends. It was an incredible opportunity to do it, and I also think it's important to pause and give the credit. Again, when things happen that are really driven by others, I think it's important to reflect and appreciate.

So the reason I applied for the Rhodes Scholarship was a gentleman who was the Dean of Students of Harvard College, a gentleman named Archie Epps who has since passed. Dean Epps was terrific to my sister when she was there, was terrific to me.

It was the beginning of my senior year, and Dean Epps calls me in for a meeting — the Dean of Students calls you in for meeting, you go. And he says, “I want you to apply for the Rhodes Scholarship.” And I'm like, “Oh, no, no, that's somebody else, I don't think I'm the right person to do that.” And he's like, “No, I would like you to apply.” I'm like, “No, Dean Epps, I don't think that would work.” So this conversation goes back and forth over a period of time, and he says, “Will you do it for me?”

Alan Fleischmann

Wow, what a wonderful thing to say.

Sylvia Burwell

“Will you do it for me?” So at that point, this is a person who has given time and energy to both me and my sister, has been highly supportive. So I'm like, “Okay.”

Alan Fleischmann

what a brilliant thing for him to do too, because he made it not be about you. He made it the about him. He pulled on what was probably your incredible respect for him and devotion to him. He got away from this “Can I do it? Is that appropriate for me?” I think that’s a good lesson in life. “Don't do it for yourself, do it for me.” And you did, you got accepted. And was it very clear when you got accepted that it was something you would do?

Sylvia Burwell

Yes, once I had said that I was applying. Though I will admit, I am a slow starter. Anything. First grade, I nearly dropped out. I am a slow starter with those things which are new. Which is incredibly ironic, because I have done so many different things and I start so many times. So it's just a self-awareness point, at this point in my life.

So when I say that, my sister had to fly down from Boston — she was working in Boston — because she had to put me physically on the plane to go. And she's like, “You made this decision. You applied for this. You wanted to do this.” And I'm like, “I don't want to go.” Meanwhile, my best friends from Harvard, Sally Amoruso, Linda, Lori and Ronnie Webb, they met me for like lunch right before. One of them belonged to the Harvard Club in New York, and they were like, “You're going, it's going to be great.”

Alan Fleischmann

And you went?

Sylvia Burwell

Yes. The first six, seven days were very difficult. Fortunately, Atul Gawande — a name that many people probably know — I met immediately, and spent lots of time with Atul and another woman named Sue Pepin, we became fast friends, and it all worked out. It was a great experience.

What was different about this experience is, I didn't actually have a job. I didn't have to work and do schoolwork. So the extracurriculars grew, in terms of things that I committed my time to, beyond my studies.

Alan Fleischmann

And you were in the UK, you could travel through Europe.

Sylvia Burwell

Yes, I did do traveling. I traveled to the Soviet Union at that time. Took my first trip to Africa during that time. Went to Austria and learn to ski at that time. So I did many of those kinds of things. I rowed for my college, I was able to participate in the first women's Henley. Susan Rice convinced me to go out for the basketball team and I played for the Oxford University women's basketball team. I participated in a drama production my first year. So lots of different things.

Alan Fleischmann

And was Susan also a Rhodes scholar with you?

Sylvia Burwell

Yes, Susan was a Rhodes with me, and we became very good friends there. It was through Susan that I then meet, indirectly, my husband. Because Susan introduces me to a friend of hers in Seattle when I moved there, and that is the cousin. And her name is Victoria Burwell. And she's the cousin of my husband.

Alan Fleischmann

Oh, wow. And I know Victoria Burwell through you, actually.

Sylvia Burwell

Yes, yes.

Alan Fleischmann

That’s very interesting. I did not realize that's how you met, through Susan.

Every experience that you talk about, from even grade school, I feel like you get the most out of it. I can imagine the character in the movie of Sylvia, but with everything you seem to say, “I'm going to do to the fullest.”

Sylvia Burwell

Yes. I do believe that, drink it dry. In the Burwell household, we use the phrase “Go big or go home.” That is how we like to do everything, go big or go home.

Alan Fleischmann

I love that. Do it right or don't do it at all.

So you went there, you left there, and you went to McKinsey. Then you also join the 1992 campaign for President Clinton, when he ran for president. And were you working on the campaign on the economic team? Is that right?

Sylvia Burwell

Yes. But during that time at Oxford, I take time off and work on the Dukakis-Bentsen campaign in ’88.

Alan Fleischmann

Okay, so you were already doing presidential campaign stuff.

Sylvia Burwell

In 1988, I take time off and go to the Dukakis-Bentsen campaign. And I said at the Dukakis-Bentsen campaign, you had to be a Rhodes Scholar to fax and you had to be a Marshall Scholar to photocopy. It was a great group of people, learned many, many things. I was very, very fortunate. I actually worked on the preparation for the presidential debates, that was one of the jobs I did. I actually did opposition research with John Podesta as well in the 1988 campaign.

So worked on that one first. Then in ’92, I take a leave of absence from McKinsey and go down to Little Rock to work on the economic team with Gene Sperling and an old friend, George Stephanopoulos, from the ’88 campaign.

Alan Fleischmann

Right. You’ve got some Greek Americans here with you. You’ve got Dukakis, you’ve got Stephanopoulos, you’ve got Matthews, we’ve got a few things going here.

I actually met George for the first time during the ’88 Dukakis campaign. Our friendship goes back to that period when I met him. Then when he told me about Bill Clinton a few years later, I was like “Bill who?” Things changed, obviously.

But you actually took time off from McKinsey. Did you go back to McKinsey?

Sylvia Burwell

In the end, I don't. Because what happens is, Clinton wins and then I work on the economic transition team. Bob Rice and I share an office. I'm supporting Bob, who's leading the economic transition. And then Bob Rubin gets announced as the National Economic Council head, and Bob asked me to join him. So at that point, I resigned from McKinsey.

Alan Fleischmann

Then you go work in the White House. And by the way, Bob Rubin is the first National Economic Council head, if I recall.

Sylvia Burwell

Yes. I actually have the drawings of how we were going to structure it. I had been at McKinsey, so I had the template, doing the circles, the drawings of how to structure the clustering of the substantive issues in order to make it work in terms of the hiring. I still actually have those drawings.

Alan Fleischmann

Did you go with him to Treasury as well?

Sylvia Burwell

Yes.

The Chiefs of Staff at the Department of Treasury under the Clinton administration all went off to very profound things. As you know, there's been a long line of people who've taken that job as Chief of Staff in the Treasury that have done quite well. You'd be one of them, and a few others we know. It's a pretty amazing job.

Sylvia Burwell

Well, what happens when I leave Treasury is I then go to be Deputy Chief of Staff to Erskine Bowles, in the White House. And as and then I went to OMB after that. Bob Rubin once said, “I've been to several going away parties for Sylvia, and she doesn't seem to really leave.” So I was very fortunate that I had the opportunity to do lots of different and interesting things.

Alan Fleischmann

Amazing. Did you stay at the administration to the end?

Sylvia Burwell

Yes. First day to last day.

Alan Fleischmann

Wow, that's amazing. And then the Gates Foundation. When you went over to the Gates Foundation was right at the very, very beginning. I remember visiting you in Seattle. And honestly, I may be exaggerating, I thought there were eight people that worked there. You were one of the very few people that were at the Gates Foundation at the very, very beginning. And it wasn't called the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation at that point, I believe.

Sylvia Burwell

When I went, they had changed the name to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. It was the very early days of the Gates Foundation. Patty Stonesifer, though, is the real beginning of that. And some other players, like Alan Goldstone, who's still there running education at the Gates Foundation.

But yes, I was there for the very early days in terms of the growth of the foundation. I think when I got there, there were about 100 folks. And by the time I left, you know, it was 800 or so.       

Alan Fleischmann

And you were President Global, right, at one point?

Sylvia Burwell

So yes, when I first went, I basically was the Chief Operating Officer, in terms of the function that I went in to do. And we started the work that we did an advocacy. Patty had the foresight to understand that it was going to be quite important to leverage that. Even with all of the resources of the foundation, to get the kinds of scale solutions, you needed advocacy as a part of that. So I was the COO, started the advocacy work, and then continued to move around and change. I ran the Pacific Northwest giving, ran the library giving, at one point when Warren Buffett gives the gift to Bill and Melinda in terms of expanding the foundation's corpus, worked to create what then became global development. That's the work in agriculture, financial services for the poor, water sanitation, and hygiene.

Alan Fleischmann

You must have done a lot of traveling at that point?

Sylvia Burwell

Spent lots of time on the road.

Alan Fleischmann

When you said you went to Africa for the first time when you were a Rhodes Scholar, you went to Africa many more times, I think, when you were at Gates.

Sylvia Burwell

Many, many more. Yes.

Alan Fleischmann

And you drew on things. It's amazing when you think back, I don't know if you drew on the experiences you had in grade school at that point, but it all built up. You certainly do and the experiences you had in the Clinton Administration — Chief of Staff, policy, politics, operations.

Sylvia Burwell

You know, I did draw on experiences that I had in West Virginia when I was at the Gates Foundation. For instance, I ran the library program. One of the things that Bill and Melinda were so interested in was the idea and concept of how technology was going to…  you didn't want to create divides. Just as when Carnegie created the original libraries, it was about creating that access to information. So this was the next revolution of information that you could access. That was about putting computers and the technology and public libraries. That was a program I worked on. But boy, did I understand that better than you'd ever want to.

When I was in the fifth or sixth grade, we didn't have a public library in my town. We had a bookmobile. So when the bookmobile would come, you would go and check out as many books as you could. We actually, my friends, Christy and Terry, and our classmates — Janice Kelly was another, Sheri Mann — we had a bake sale to raise money to contribute to creating a public library. So this idea of the importance of public libraries, the access, that sort of thing — I used what I learned as a child, in terms of the economics of understanding how hard it is fund public libraries, what it takes from the community to support the public library. These were all things that I used when I was like doing this, because I'd live the experience. I could understand when they said, “Well, how are we going to get all this connected? Who's going to run it?” All of those things I knew and understood.

Alan Fleischmann

You understood the community that you needed to serve. That's amazing. So actually, I was joking a little bit, but it was real.

Sylvia Burwell

Oh, no, it's quite real. I use it all the time. The support of Charles Breyers and creating a sense of community, how that helps me think about creating community here at American University. Title IX, whose anniversary is up — thank goodness I played basketball and team sports. I learned so much in terms of what my leadership is, about teams, about how to lead, about how to be a good team player, about perseverance, about losing, and about winning.

Alan Fleischmann

You are listening to “Leadership Matters” on SiriusXM and leadershipmattersshow.com. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. I'm here with Sylvia Mathews Burwell, president of American University. And we're talking about her amazing career.

We've had many, many guests here on this show. I don't think have had anyone on the show that has had such an extraordinary journey as you have in your young life. I mean, it really is amazing, Sylvia, how many interesting things you've done, both in public life and in civil society, and the private sector as well. But they all seem to kind of create this world that just keeps adding to your journey. More people that you can pull from and ideas that you can draw from. It's amazing.

I Imagine you being at OMB, for example, you were involved in lots of political fights if I recall, as well. When I think of politics in university life… I love when people say “I'm leaving government, I'm leaving politics, because I'm going to go to university, because I'm tired of politics.” I look at them saying, “There's nothing more political than university life, campus life.” And you have the basic training for it at the leadership level, you must draw from that as well.

Sylvia Burwell

I do. I think the other thing that I have found about it is, it is often described as political. But I think part of it, in the university, in the academy, the incentives are about the individual. It's my degree. It's my tenure. So the question of how you create institutional community is, I think, one of the things, when people say it's political, it's about figuring out how to align the interests of the entire entity against mission. Versus, you know, the politics in terms of that.

Paul Ryan is someone I’ve worked with since the first time I served in government. Paul and I might play on different teams, but we're both in the same game, right? We're both they're serving because we believe that service makes the country better. The rules of the game are basically the same. But we have different viewpoints about how to get there. That is kind of different than being in a place where, it's not clear that everyone like is clear that we're all playing one thing, that we're playing soccer, or what we're doing.

So creating an ability to get that alignment of interests — which I found, fortunately, at American University. You're quite able to do that, because this university aligns around mission and this issue of changemaking. That's what everybody aligns on, that's what creates community here. We don't have a football team, but what we do have is every individual that with the university, staff, faculty, or students, generally is affiliating because they know and understand this is about impact. It's about getting something done. It's about the tools, the time, the place, and the people to make things happen. And that's sort of how it has translated, this issue of the politics versus this this issue of community and a sense of mission.

Alan Fleischmann

Now I came to American University not knowing that much about it, even though I grew up in Baltimore. And I loved my AU experience, I think I maximized every bit of it. For me it was, when people said, “Washington, is there a campus?” What you just described actually resonates with me big time, because I think it draws on people — faculty, administration, students — who are looking to make a difference. Who are coming to Washington because it's international. Coming to Washington because it's domestic. Honestly, with all the programs that are even beyond political science and international relations, but also communications, law, and business, it was kind of ahead of Washington in some ways. You've been managed to kind of bring it all together a little bit.

Tell us a little bit about that culture that you're you captured that maybe wasn't so articulate before your tenure, I would argue, but that you've been helping you actually put into action, into words.

Sylvia Burwell

How it happened was, I came to the university and wanted to put together a strategy. I asked three fundamental questions. I asked over 1000 people these three questions — staff, faculty, students, alumni, neighbors, people in the Washington, DC, community. You’ll remember, because I asked you. Three questions: What's the one thing that we need to change to get American University to its next level? Number two: What's the one thing that needs to stay the same to take American University to next level? And number three: what differentiates American University?

In answering those questions, what became clear as I talked to all these people is the DNA of the place. And the DNA of this place is changemaking. When you stop, you pause and you would just listen, you couldn't get through five minutes of the conversation with somebody saying, impact, passion, making change. One young woman who was one of our Fulbrights in London, I was meeting with some of our alumni in London and she was a recent alum, like one year out or so. She described it this way: She said, “there is no indifference at American University.” No one has indifference. There is a passion, there is an intensity to move forward. That was what was so important.

So that's what you're hearing, but then you look at the facts. Our law school, Washington College of Law, American University’s law school, was founded by two women in the late 1800s. These two women could not get a law degree. So what did they do? They started a law school.

Alan Fleischmann

They couldn't even vote.

Sylvia Burwell

They couldn't even vote, but they start a law school.

Or, for instance, General Dwight D. Eisenhower comes to dedicate the school that you went to, the School of International Service. General Eisenhower, and what does he say about the school? “It's going to wage peace.” Ahead of the time, ahead of where anything could be.

Kay Spiritual Life, the center of our campus, was a building and an idea and a concept that was created in the 1960s by someone who was Jewish and someone who was Catholic. The word ecumenical, that was not a concept of the ’60s, you know; that starts in the ’70s. First university to be carbon-neutral, first university that has an antiracist Research and Policy Center.

So what I was hearing was consistent with what I saw. It was just a matter of putting your finger on the pulse and making sure we all got it. Now we articulate what people were living. And I think that has made a difference.

Alan Fleischmann

It's important to get it above the radar, because we want to have great impact more than ever right now. So it’s powerful that you found a way to express it and then find the ways to share it. Because it is an incubator.

And you're very much about partnering, you're not trying to compete with others. I kind of look at you as a leader who actually says, “Let's be the best we can be. Let’s not worry about the others.” That kind of challenge does make other people say, “Let’s focus on the future.”

Sylvia Burwell

It is about living out the examples of this substantive work and substantive change. Our students were number one in all of North America for Model UN and this year. We won the Atlantic Council cybersecurity, we were number one there. In the sad, sad events of what's happened recently in Buffalo, it's Cynthia Miller-Idriss, Professor of American University, who works on extremism, that is her area of scholarship. But she had already been producing documents for parents and children to recognize signs of extremism, to prevent it, what are the ways that we can work on it. Once you've articulated it, then you start to see people going out and really focusing on doing it in very public ways.

Alan Fleischmann

I believe that today is the fifth anniversary of your tenure as president.

Sylvia Burwell

It is.

Alan Fleischmann

Which is pretty amazing that we're having the show today. Five years, I can't believe it. I think AU was so lucky, Washington was so lucky. You had all these choices that you and your husband, Stephen, chose AU to be the place where you want to be.

As you're looking to the next, hopefully, let's say five years — I don’t want to hold you up — but let's just say, the next five years, I would say you're building something at AU and articulating something at American University at a time where higher education is challenged on so many levels. It was challenged five years ago, that's why you took it on. But the challenges are getting easier. So is there a role for American University that, because of where we've been in the last five years, that makes it so that we can charge forward with confidence ,while other universities may not? Is there a vision that you have for higher education in the next five years that you're hoping for, you're working toward as president?

Sylvia Burwell

Yes, I believe at American University, we are. We are seeing that momentum, and we came out of COVID with that momentum. This year, I feel very good about the fact that we are seeing that momentum.

For instance, our School of Public Affairs has now joined our School of International Service to be a top 10 school in the nation, and we're number one in DC. I believe that's because of how we think about these issues of changemaking and engagement. We're working with the Hewlett Foundation and have a specialized program that helps people on the Hill, on both sides, negotiate for solutions to move things forward. We're a place that is about recognizing the importance of impact. Not just thinking about things, not just talking about things, but actual impact on the fields and the places that we are working on, whether that is in our School of Public Affairs or our Kogod School of Business. Our Kogod students — their entrepreneur group, a group of our students — went when the Syrian refugees were moving into one of the Nordic countries, they went and they helped the federal government figure out ways to economically integrate those refugees. So it's across the board, how we think about these things and what we do. And I think that's the differentiator.

I think, in higher education, what we're gonna see is more differentiation. And by that, I mean… what we do is we group higher ed as all one thing. But we don't do that in most sectors. Whether you think of community colleges or you think of Harvard, it is a differentiated thing. And we have to think about higher education in terms of the Amazon Prime phrase: what you want, when you want it, how you want it, where you want it. I believe that American University — because of who we are, where we're placed — is uniquely able to meet the needs and demands of scholarship, from Cynthia Miller-Idriss and the work that she's doing; or Heng, another professor at our Business School, who is doing research on what is happening when people are doing hiring and bias in certain types of the programs. I mean, we are well placed, we focus on the right issues, and we think about it in the right way.

What we're trying to do as a university is what you said, Alan: we're not trying to repeat the old recipe. What we're doing is using who we are, our deeply rooted values that I described, and we are taking that into the future. That's what I believe is going to make a successful university and make success for higher education. It's why we have the first antiracist Research and Policy Center. We're the first university to be carbon neutral in the nation. So all of those things are a reflection of a unique place.

And we're not for everybody; I would be honest in saying we're not for everybody. We are for a group of people who want to come, have passion, and are thinking about impact. Whether that's in the arts — we have a strong arts program — or what people really think about, often, when they think about our School of International Service. We now have a new chair in neuroscience, doing incredible research. A DoD grant has come, and the research that we're doing on the brain, on post-traumatic stress, on the influence of diet on Alzheimer's — these are all the kinds of things that I think are why we're set up to be quite a successful institution. And by success, I mean achieving against mission, delivering impact in the scholarly output, and the students that we're producing are going to be changemakers.

Alan Fleischmann

I love the changemakers, I love the focus. And I love the fact that you've talked to probably more than 1000 people to come up with that as you led in the last five years.

You are the embodiment of leadership — I really do think you're an elegant leader, you're a powerful leader, but you make your power open to others to share with you — you’re a power sharer, I guess. But what I love about AU, and I think we're getting to it right now and I think we're gonna get to it in higher education, is: how do you create a generation of new leaders? How do we actually give people the tools to be impatient, to have that urgency, to want that transformation, and say, “It's my role to seek it and to deliver on it”?

I think you're building that. You've been living it personally, but you're building it now at scale. And no better place to do it than Washington; other universities need to do it, but those who actually do that, I think they're going to have an indispensable role in higher education no matter what. Those who don't may become obsolete — I don't know, but that isn't your focus or mine necessarily. But there's a role to be played for having a campus life where you're helping future leaders learn to lead. That is, I think, the opportunity for higher education, and you're doing it at AU.

Sylvia Burwell

That's the idea of lifetime learning and lifelong learning as a part of our core strategy. Because we believe, when I said what you want, when you want, how you want it: Our key executive education program that partners with senior executive service in the federal government. Our business school right now has a specialized program, working with the Navy, in terms of their leaders, in terms of training them for what they need.

That is about a nimbleness to meet the needs of Washington. It is an incredible town, in terms of government but also business now. Meeting those needs in terms of how you're helping and supporting the leaders that you have come through, and then the leaders that need to come back as things change. So we think of our role in terms of both of those functions.

Alan Fleischmann

If you're talking to a young person who's trying to decide whether he or she should go to college or university, or skip it in order for them to take on the world and to be a leader, I imagine you'd say, “Don't skip it.”

Sylvia Burwell

I would say, don't skip it. I would say, if you feel you need a gap year or that sort of thing, I think that's fine. But I would not skip it, and the reason is: The tools that you get… and the tools, interestingly, and this is something COVID taught us. For a residential institution, if that is what is right for you and can be right for you— and I understand it can't be for everyone — but if you are coming to a residential institution like ours, it's about what you would call book learning in West Virginia, it is about what happens in the classroom, but it is also about experiential learning. 92% of our students are doing experiential learning, whether that is in the classroom, in labs, or down the street on the Hill, or at companies like your own.

The other thing is that co-curricular experience. That 18 to 22 developmental time, what we are learning is… It's funny Alan, you were going through students having that passion for change. One of the most important things we can also teach them is to listen, to listen and to discern. That is an important part of that. You learn that both in the classroom and outside the classroom.

Alan Fleischmann

I would say, another thing you can learn is something you said that I don't want to overlook: when you said you learned so much on a sports team. When you're at a university, in the residential environment in particular on campus, you can't help but be part of something bigger than yourself. That team experience gives you the skills and the tools.

Sylvia Burwell

That idea of community, in terms of team and community. When we handled COVID, the phrase we used is community of care. Because you should be not just thinking about yourself, but the community, and how are you going to play a role in that community of care.

Or, for instance, during Holocaust Remembrance Week, we read all of the names. But the whole community participates in terms of that reading of the names, so you are part of the community. Or campus beautification day, I celebrated this year and worked. It's 29 years since our first campus beautification day. What is campus beautification? It is a time when our staff, our faculty, and our students come together to plant, mulch, and make our campus beautiful. It's about that kind of learning of team and community.

Alan Fleischmann

Well, you're accomplishing so many extraordinary things at American University, I get to see it close up. You've accomplished so much for our country, and you've done so much work globally. You have been such a great leader, you bring people together, and you deliver on those promises. I am so grateful that you continue to do it in so many different ways: through boards you serve on, through your leadership as president of American University, through the experiences that you've tapped along the way, and I know the best is yet to come.

So on behalf of the listeners of “Leadership Matters” and leadershipmattersshow.com, I will say how disappointed I am that we didn't have two hours today. I'm hoping that we can spend a little more time again, because the valuable insights that you share, your experience, and your willingness to actually inspire others is pretty amazing. We're grateful for you and look forward to seeing more of you for the years to come.

Sylvia Burwell

Alan, thank you so much for all you do to support this community and broader communities, and be a changemaker that we are proud at American University to call an alum. Thank you so much for having me.