Tina Brown
Award-winning journalist, editor, author and founder and CEO of Tina Brown
Live Media
“A leader does not look behind them to say, well, somebody here should do something about this. A leader is somebody who decides they feel outraged enough that they're not going to stop and ask who else or where is the other person, they're actually going to think: I feel so passionate about this, I'm the person to fix this."
Summary
In this episode of Leadership Matters, Alan and John Hickenlooper meet with Tina Brown to discuss the traits of a good leader, including passion, initiative, and nerve.
The three talk about the work that Tina did for the Women in the World Summit, which she founded in 2009, and how Tina believes in the importance of bringing women into leadership roles while inviting both men and women into the conversation around gender equity.
Tina talks about the importance of journalism, the challenges journalists face externally and institutionally, and the importance of delivering information to the public in an approachable format. As the former editor-in-chief of Tatler, Vanity Fair, The New Yorker, and The Daily Beast, Tina is apprehensive about the future of journalism but praises the next generation of leaders in the field.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
TBD with Tina Brown- click here to listen to the podcast
Tina Brown Live Media- click here to learn more about Tina Brown Live Media
Women in the World Summit- click here to learn more about Women in the World Summit
David Remnick, journalist- click here to learn more about David Remnick
Jeffrey Toobin, legal correspondent- click here to learn more about Jeffrey Toobin
Malcolm Gladwell, writer- click here to learn more about Malcolm Gladwell
Obiageli Ezekwesili, humanitarian- click here to learn more about Obiageli Ezekwesili
Indra Nooyi, CEO of Pepsi- click here to learn more about Indra Nooyi
Christine Lagarde, politician- click here to learn more about Christine Lagarde
Harold Evans, Tina's husband, publisher- click here to learn more about Harold Evans
Guest Bio
Christina Hambley Brown is a journalist, magazine editor, columnist, talk-show host, and author of The Diana Chronicles, a biography of Diana, Princess of Wales. Born a British citizen, she now holds joint citizenship after she took United States citizenship in 2005, following her emigration in 1984 to edit Vanity Fair.
Having been editor-in-chief of Tatler magazine at the age of 25, she rose to prominence in the American media industry as the editor of Vanity Fair from 1984 to 1992 and of The New Yorker from 1992 to 1998. She was founding editor-in-chief of The Daily Beast, serving from 2008 to 2013.
As an editor, she has received four George Polk Awards, five Overseas Press Club awards, and ten National Magazine Awards. In 2000, she was appointed a CBE (Commander of the Order of the British Empire) for her services to overseas journalism, and in 2007 was inducted into the Magazine Editors' Hall of Fame.
Follow Tina on LinkedIn and Twitter @TinaBrownLM.
Episode Transcription
John Hickenlooper
Here we are, again, this is John Hickenlooper, sometimes governor, former governor of Colorado, and my good friend, Alan Fleischmann. This is Leadership Matters. And this is going to be a really special show, because, you know, me as a radio interviewer, after having spent, you know, 16 years in the tavern business has always been a little bit of a of a dislocation. But now we get to interview—Alan and I get to interview one of the greatest interviewers ever, and somebody who in the process—so in about 12, I'm trying to figure out—from 1979 to 2001. So that's what that 21 years, something like that. She was the editor in chief of Tatler, Vanity Fair, and the New Yorker. She wrote the 2007 Best Selling biography of Princess Di, the Diana Chronicles, and then, just because she was bored and needed something else to do, in October of 2008, she started and edited the the original Daily Beast. So Tina Brown is in the house. We are so excited.
Alan Fleischmann
And here's a reason why we're talking to you about leadership and leadership matters. Because not only have you interviewed some of the great leaders in the world, but more importantly, you've been one too and we're gonna talk about that today, where you've actually inspired and pull things together. You've envisioned things that others haven't, and you made them happen.
John Hickenlooper
The first question is really important. What's it like to be married to a knight?
Tina Brown
Well, you know, I every so often he tries to make me curtsy but I rebel. I remind him now that of course I am also a CBE in my own right. I'm a commander of the British Empire. That's right. So I'm nearly at his level.
John Hickenlooper
Yeah. In a more sexually egalitarian universe, you would certainly be at his level. And don't tell Harry I said this, but might even be a little higher. Anyway, her husband—Tina's, for our listeners, Tina's husband is Harold Evans, who has had an illustrious career in all sorts of things, but legendary publisher and really influencer of the world.
Tina Brown
Certainly a great editor, and he's still my best editor. I don't write anything without his eagle eye going through it. His flashing red pencil that can just like decimate my sentences.
Alan Fleischmann
One of the things that I think Tina, which I've had the privilege of actually attending quite a few of them, is this, is the women of the world and the summit that you created. And, you know, when John and I talked about leadership, and we talked about, you know, who's out there doing extraordinary things, it's not just the gatherings, the convenings that matter, but what you do with them when you do. I mean, we know so many, you know, organizations, even journalists, you know, journalists, platforms like Fortune and others who bring women together. But you bring women and men together to talk about women empowerment.
Tina Brown
Well, actually, and also we take a very much a narrative approach, you know. Because I'm a journalist, it's about live journalism, really much more than it is about a conference. It's all about finding extraordinary storytellers, who are, you know, they are both leaders. But there are also leaders who can tell stories about how they've succeeded. And you know, the stories are pretty gripping when they are women who are heroes, as many of them are.
Alan Fleischmann
And those are famous, those who actually give me inspired by their fame, and that what they've done with their power. And many, many folks you've never heard of, I go to your conferences and learn about leaders that I didn't know exist.
Tina Brown
You know, last year, we had this amazing Australian sea captain, you know, who rescues migrants from the Mediterranean ocean, and I just, I was so blown away by it, because I'm thinking, you know, who decides to kind of get up in the morning, you know, becomes a sea captain anyway, and then spend that time rescuing refugees who are flailing in the ocean? I mean, she just behaved as if it was just like her regular job. And I'm thinking, no, no, no, you are quite extraordinary that you have taken this on.
John Hickenlooper
I think what's—and this is your—this is all part of Tina Brown Live Media, your new company. And it does look at a whole array of events and media and publications. But But I think one of the things and Alan hit the nail right on the head, our culture is so used to people telling the stories of male heroes, and so accustomed to always I mean, certainly Angelina Jolie gets a lot of press and we have celebrities, but telling the stories of heroics. It seems like there's been a vacuum, almost.
Tina Brown
Absolute vacuum. I mean, John, you and both of you often come to the event we do at Davos every year and I think you've seen some of the extraordinary women we find. But even though there was that wonderful doctor from Syria, you know, who spent her time operating with bombs falling around her, you know, in Aleppo. I mean, the bravery to kind of rescue life like that. I have another amazing doctor, actually. Through that I've been bringing to our summits recently who is a Canadian Pakistani doctor who was so appalled by what she saw was happening to the Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar where they've been in genocide there, really, that she decided I have to do something about it. And she goes off, you know, to this camp in Bangladesh, where she has been ministering to these Rohingya refugees. And she just comes back to try to bear witness and she'll come back again and again. And I think again, who is it who gets up in the morning instead of reading this item in the local newspaper thinks, you know, that's sad, I wish someone would do something about it. Actually thinks I'm going to go there. I'm going to do something about it. I love those kind of people. They are truly heroic people.
John Hickenlooper
Yeah, the stories are amazing. And one thing I love is in each of your events, the content is there. The I mean, these women are heroes, but they're there in the flesh. And they're, you know, almost always, not always, but almost always modest, humble, and like really weren't looking to get a lot of attention. Tthey would they were doing what needed to be done.
Tina Brown
Yeah, I know. It's it is remarkable because we live in a world of absolute self promotion and blowhards of plenty right?
John Hickenlooper
Don't look in my direction when you say that.
Alan Fleischmann
There's a theme, though. I mean, there's a thread that goes through all your journalism. I mean, you were an editor, a world renowned editor, really young. And you know, when you think about what your career has been like, and what you've done, but you actually have married the IQ, you know, the idea of all the great thoughts and great ideas, with the emotional stuff that John's now referring to, which is the you know, that humility, the kindness, the the courage, elements that we care about. And you link them together, now, more importantly, when you bring them together in your career.
Tina Brown
I also feel strongly that a journalist's job you know, is to illuminate the world. And I'm a hugely fascinated by, you know, the global movements of the world. And yet, so many of these stories, just don't, the eyes glaze over. And my husband, you know, once said to me about Latin America, he said, people will do everything for Latin America, except read about it. And, you know, people read about stuff that's happening in places like Myanmar, and they just, it's a foreign affairs story, or whatever. So they don't really pay much attention to it. But when you have a live human being, you know, a real story, then people really become engaged. And one of the things I love most about when we do our events, our big event, women in the world is that, you know, you come out in the interval, and you hear somebody saying, I had no idea that was happening in Uganda, you know. I had no idea that was happening in you know, in Australia, when we did something about the horrific refugee camp Nauru over there, or I had no idea this was happening, you know, in Louisiana. I mean, the fact is that people, you want people to pay attention, and in paying attention, they become educated to the issues.
Alan Fleischmann
Well you've also been courageous, not only haveyou spotlighted them, they're not always easy things to spotlight, especially when you're trying to do global convenience. You've also done it here in the United States as well, where you've actually made the world come here. You know, for a long time, you know, we would always talk about developing needs and things that were happening overseas. And we realized we had a lot of work to do here in this country as well.
Tina Brown
We find we're doing more and more and more American stories, actually, because, you know, gun violence is one of the things we're going to be addressing. We have our 10th anniversary summit, April the 10th to the 12th at Lincoln Center, and we are going to be doing the gun violence, we're going to be doing climate change, we're going to be doing, you know, digital disruption, all through the kind of prism of women who are fighting these things, or who are passionate about these things, or have been sometimes victims of these things. I mean, you know, climate change is creating so many climate refugees, I mean, these are huge stories, which no one is really addressing much of. And we're hoping to do that, in the context of women in the world.
Alan Fleischmann
And solutions. Talking about solutions.
Tina Brown
Absolutely, yes. You want to showcase the people who are working to solve these things.
John Hickenlooper
Do you think there's a thread? Well, first, we'll take just a moment and say that you're listening to Leadership Matters in your home or your car. Or your place of business. Tina Brown, this is John Hickenlooper and my cohort in crime, Alan Fleischmann. Does this—Do you think there's a thread here from—and your husband told me a story he probably shouldn't have—and you can head me off if I'm going into fragile on thin ice or fragile territory.
Tina Brown
When has that ever stopped you John?
John Hickenlooper
Hasn't yet. But anyway, if I remember right, and I think the word was subversive, you were let go from a school or two because you were subversive.
Tina Brown
I was thrown out of three schools. I own it. I'm owning it here. I was at boarding school, and my parents insisted on sending me to these kind of ridiculous sort of posh schoolgirl boarding schools and you know, I always found them basically many things about them absolutely ridiculous, and I would sort of rebel. So it wasn't as i—it was not that I was doing cool things like you know, taking drugs and meeting boys over the wall, etc, etc. I wasn't actually doing that. What I was was just trouble, you know, I was just insubordinate, I was just irreverent and they just got really sick of my face because I was always taking them on. And the time I got really booted from the last school was when there was this rule that girls had to wear two pairs of underwear and the outer underwear had to be in this gray flannel and you could only change it every two, every three days. And I just hated this rule. I thought it was ridiculous. So I led this demonstration across the lacrosse field with people waving placards saying knickers out out out knickers out. Except it was me that was out. As soon as this happened, I wasm that's it. Third time my father loading up the trunk of his car with that suitcase, it became a very familiar activity. He was always on my side there. My parents, they were really good. They would always say to the head teacher, you must feel terrible, you failed this immensely talented child. And I would get in the car of course, and he would.
Alan Fleischmann
They must have been proud of you. Your parents were cultural changes themselves.
Tina Brown
They were. My dad was in movies and a piece of him was kind of very proud of my favorite.
John Hickenlooper
I remember my sister was a schoolteacher her whole life. And she taught for a while at a prep school called Putney school in Vermont. And she was the student advisor for Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward's daughter Nell. And in the end, she failed. Now, she was a subversive, she kicked out as well. But anyway, we should come back and talk about your parents little bit. But I think, you know, I see more in that notion of as you were putting together this focus on women. And these outstanding, exceptional lives that were, relatively speaking, unreported. Many of them completely unreported. I mean, there's a subversive element there that you're without saying it, by just bringing them to the attention and giving them such focus, right, you're kind of pointing out to the rest of the world, the rest of journalism, Hey, get with it?
Tina Brown
Well, absolutely. Because, you know, we started Women in the World in 2009, when there was only kind of one woman's business conference. Now there are many, many, many. And I do feel that we have been a very, you know, important sort of leading edge, frankly, in this whole global movement towards, you know, I hate to use the word empowering women, because it's something of a cliche, but really, the mission has found its moment. And we've seen it exploding in the last couple of years. And, you know, it's been about a slow build and a slow burn. As you know, we've been finding these extraordinary women doing amazing things, they get very little attention, almost no coverage, because, you know, they, their stories are not—their stories of people doing great stuff, as opposed to negative stuff. And they're moving the needle in extraordinary ways. And now you're seeing the tipping point is really happening. And with the Me Too movement, obviously has been the watershed. But things are moving. But it has been a really slow—it's a tectonic shift. But it's a very, very glacial one.
John Hickenlooper
It is still—and you know, my wife, Robin serves on the boards of several public companies. And she has always, there's—I don't think a single board where there's more than two women and two of the boards have only one other woman.
Tina Brown
It's true.
John Hickenlooper
I mean, it's ridiculous.
Tina Brown
It's true. And you know, one of these CEOs, they go out there making these big, grand speeches about the fact they have pipelines full of women, to which I can only say, that pipeline must be pretty jammed. Otherwise, why are you standing here, right? Because they are actually—the women always seem to sort of stall out like at that two and three position. And it makes women at a certain point really mad. I mean, I have a colleague recently a wonderful person in publishing, who, you know, she'd been 10 years at this job. And all of a sudden, she suddenly gets a group memo along with everybody else saying a new person has been appointed who's junior to her completely. A guy, you know, who's been running another division who's just—hasn't done anything like what she has done, and somehow she's supposed to just stick around and smile, you know, and it's like, women are getting actually quite tired of that trophy. You know, it's so familiar that they do the work. They put the hours in, they're ready to move up. And then they get passed over.
John Hickenlooper
And I remember. It was Mitt Romney, when he was running. He says—people were asking you about hiring women. He said, oh, I've got binders full of women. Been in that binder a long time.
Alan Fleischmann
That binder expression actually backfired for him as well. But you do. You do though, as I said earlier, you do actually have many men attend your conferences or gatherings?
Tina Brown
Listen, I some of my best you know, supporters have been men.
Alan Fleischmann
I thought you were gonna say, some of my best friends have been men.
Tina Brown
Some of my best supporters and mentors have been men you know, there are wonderful good guys out there and they're not getting enough attention for being really good guys. And actually, I'm particularly I think now I see you can really shine a light on some of the men who who are the opposite of the ones we're reading about, you know, who actually have created wonderful mentoring situations for women and have been huge supporters. So no, I'm not hostile to men at all. I'm hostile to a kind of, shall we say? I mean, actually, a friend of mine Kara Swisher great journalist, refers to the meritocracy, which is, which is men hiring people that look just like themselves. That is the problem that happens.
Alan Fleischmann
Praising their merits.
Tina Brown
Right, praising them. And when I looked at that Senate Judiciary Committee, it was just a staggering thing. Those it was seven, eight of these men are all the same age, white. They have to kind of basically rent a woman to come in and ask the questions with Christine Blasey Ford. It was a stunning show, really, of what a lot of America still looks like. But not most of America in the sense that there's so much that's changed. It's not be reflected at the top. This is the problem.
Alan Fleischmann
There's not where Americans heading either.
Tina Brown
It's just not.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, I mean, right now, you've actually, you know, one of the things that I think we've also discovered in the last few years is not only, you know, how do we actually support articulate, find inspirational role models, who are women, but also men who were, who are supporting them, but also the power of journalism? I want to get to that with you as well, because I think, you know, if you know, John lives as everyday, as governor of Colorado, I'm sure you have a you have a love-love, or love-less love relationship with journalists. When you're in public life, I think when you're in business, the same thing. But you do value the importance of that part of our democracy. And it feels under threat today in a way that I've never seen. And we're all needing to support journalists right now who are taking great risks themselves.
Tina Brown
Well, that's the thing. I mean, the courage of so many journalists. It's been the worst year for journalists in memory in terms of the number who have been killed, imprisoned, arrested, because authoritarianism is on the march all over the world. And also, because digital disruption has cut so many budgets, that now you'll find that, you know, journalists will remain passionate about wanting to cover the world. So they go off on their own is kind of stringers under supported, you know, no real organizational backup behind them. And it puts some tremendously vulnerable to kidnapping to arrest to, you know, being captured and nobody really looking for them. It's a very dangerous situation. I'm quite encouraged by the fact that we have now you know, three big entries, these digital fortunes coming into journalism with Marc Benioff buying Time and Jeff Bezos at Washington Post and the recent acquirer of the LA Times who is a biotech billionaire. I'm actually wondering whether it's almost as if you know, these digital fortunes and begin to think to themselves, oh, my God, you know, what, are we done a bit. You know, I mean, they've sort of—they have disrupted the world to the point that suddenly journalism is really under siege. Yes. And so if they can bring their their resources to supporting journalists, it will be a fantastic give back.
John Hickenlooper
You know, for so long—so when I was a kid growing up, journalism was a form of nobility and social service, it was underpaid. So if you want to become a reporter, it was underpaid. But you had a sense, you could change the world. You know, Watergate was a, like a beacon of what journalism could do. And my little league baseball coach was a guy named Gil Spencer, who won a couple Pulitzers. And, you know, I came this close to having a summer job when he was working, running the Trentonian. And somehow it didn't work out. And I didn't end up getting to be a journalist. But when I opened my, the Wynkoop Brewing Company, my restaurant, journalists were special people. And it didn't matter whether they ever reviewed a restaurant, but their first beer was always free, because I knew they were doing the Lord's work. And I knew that they were underpaid.
Tina Brown
Right? Well, that's absolutely right. And I want to see, I want to see them getting that respect back, you know, it's because they're under siege in every way. They're under siege, politically from the White House and digitally from, you know, and in business from the business model from the digital. So it's definitely a crisis moment.
John Hickenlooper
Yeah, there's no question and I think you're right, that it's encouraging to see you know, one of the things that technology and especially the Internet has done is concentrate wealth at a rate that we haven't really seen since Benjamin Solomon cracked crude oil into kerosene, right. So that kind of dramatic change and money coming to a relatively small number of people. But it's great to see some of those people recognizing that the fragility of the media now is an essential component of democracy, of our way of life, and that if they're not willing to step up and put real resources in it, I mean, I mean, look at this fake news stuff.
Tina Brown
It's terrifying and I—there's something else as well even when it isn't fake, because there's so many outlets and so much fragment noise. The noise is so intense that you almost can't discern what is important anymore. I mean, on the Mueller report stuff for instance, it's almost hard to decipher like, well, what actually happened today, because of the volume and the granular nature of the constant volume.
Alan Fleischmann
And you're seeing stories that are investigative journalist stories that you'll see published in big pay publications, and you'll be in awe of the depth and the time that it took to research them. And the story doesn't even last a day.
Tina Brown
It doesn't get any traction. Yeah. And that's extremely demoralizing.
Alan Fleischmann
Dangerous also.
Tina Brown
Dangerous and demoralizing.
John Hickenlooper
ButI think that we're beginning to see people coming back to some familiar haunts that, you know, places where they have a sense of trust in what they're reading is the real deal.
Tina Brown
What also I think what you're seeing is, is that the fact that these digital billionaires are buying these old, as it were, legacy brands, shows that there is still no gravitas quite like owning them, either.
Alan Fleischmann
When people complain about the fact that wealth is buying them, let's remember some of the greatest wealthiest families in our history were those who own these media outlets before. So it's not like that.
John Hickenlooper
And they weren't all singing in the choir.
Alan Fleischmann
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. We're Leadership Matters. This is Alan Fleischmann. I'm here with my good friend, Governor John Hickenlooper. And today we have an extraordinary guest, Tina Brown, who's had this amazing career in journalism, as a leader and CEO in her own right. And as someone who's inspiring men and women to do right by women through her convenings around the world.
John Hickenlooper
Has had an amazing life. I think, you know, sometimes we get hung up on people's professional achievements. I mean, getting kicked out of three boarding schools. I mean, that's got to. Yeah, I'm sure there was some guilt and shame. And sometimes, I just.
Tina Brown
It didn't stop me also, I got into Oxford after that. And I have to say, I probably would never, that probably wouldn't happen today, right? I mean, now you have to have these pristine, you know, resumes, which was, you know, with a Wikipedia entry under your name when you were clerking for a Supreme Court judge or something. But in those days, in England, it was like you went to Oxford. And if you, you know, if you could get through the interview where you had to show you with think a bit, you know, you could get in, so that was a very happy thing for me.
John Hickenlooper
You know, it's funny, and we're all roughly the same age, you're what, maybe 10 or 15 years younger than I am. But there is that, that sense, when I was a kid, I was moderately dyslexic, so they always thought I was lazy in school. Because I wouldn't get As, I couldn't keep up. And as a matter of fact, I was kind of lazy back then. But that was incidental to the actual issue. And when I actually went to apply for colleges, without a very strong record, I had high test scores, but not a very strong academic record, what they really cared about, and the schools kind of competed to see who could take this raw, uncut stone, and try and, you know, polish it up and make it something that would be, you know, make a person that would be successful in life. And that's what the schools were looking for. They didn't want to get ahead of time, the people who are gonna make the most money, be the most successful politicians, they want to find the students they could do the most good for.
Tina Brown
Which I'm sure really was good for the mix of the kind of people.
Alan Fleischmann
And when we come back, we're about to take a break, and when we come back, I'd love to talk to you about another part of your life that John you're alluding to, you've been an extraordinary mentor, offline, with so many men and women who are doing risky and courageous things. You've convene wonderful people in your own home, you bring influences together, they're not the headlines. I'd like to talk to you about that mentorship when we come back.
Speaker 1
What does it take to be a great leader? How are leaders of today changing the world? Leadership Matters with your host Colorado governor John Hickenlooper and business advisor Alan Fleischmann.
Alan Fleischmann
We are back. This is Leadership Matters. This is Alan Fleischmann. I'm here with my good friend and co host, my cohort here, Governor John Hickenlooper from Colorado who's soon to be former governor. And we have the pleasure to be with Tina Brown, the legendary journalist, leader, and inspirational spokesperson for so many things in the world that we need to be focusing on.
John Hickenlooper
Although before we get to Tina Brown, I just want to—while you're saying former.
Alan Fleischmann
I said almost former.
John Hickenlooper
My son Teddy pointed out to me the other day. He says that don't worry about it. Everybody's a former something. Good.
Alan Fleischmann
Teddy's right.
Tina Brown
We call it used to. Used to be this, used to be that.
Alan Fleischmann
The good news about being governor, though, is never lose the title, they still have to call you that if you want to. You're never that formal, though. But Tina, before we went on the break, we were talking about mentorship. And one of the things about you, which I've always found so extraordinary, and I've been lucky enough to see you do this. It's the offline things that you do. I mean, when there's a big issue that matters, you know, where you need to bring influencers from public, private and civil society together, to expose them to something that actually needs that kind of attention. You're the first one to say, come in to my home or come in to my office or come in to, you know, come together in a restaurant, but whatever it might be, to say let's talk let's break bread and let's discuss how we can help.
Tina Brown
Now I love, doing that actually. And over the years, you know, there have been lots of very interesting people who ended up, in fact becoming, you know, quite prominent such as Malala, I hosted her her 17th birthday at our house, Nadia Murad, who was this extraordinary young woman who escaped from ISIS, you know, I really sort of took her into our network and introduced her to a lot of people. Now, she just won the Nobel Prize. So sometimes things turn out, not as you expect, but you just meet somebody with an extraordinary story. And the next thing is, next time you check in, they've done something amazing. And that has always been very gratifying. I also love just to, I love to entertain writers and sort of expose their books and their, what they're doing, because writers are my tribe, you know, writers, and it is my tribe. And I feel that it's so hard for writers to get attention for their books that I do tend to say more than I should. I'll give you a book party, when I have a lot of interest in intellectual excitement about what they're doing. And I love doing that, actually, because writers need that kind of attention. They don't get much in the world we live in.
Alan Fleischmann
People know when they come to your home, that they're going to be exposed to extraordinary things. But they also know that there's a responsibility to do something with it, which is also incredibly important.
John Hickenlooper
That's a good blend. And it's not just women that are occasionally lucky enough, blessed enough to have that shining light of a book party in our home, because what can I say?
Tina Brown
I have a terrible weakness for historians, too. I mean, I love historians.
John Hickenlooper
I was always talking about me. Historians, which historians are you special towards?
Tina Brown
I've loved. I mean, Andrew Roberts, who just wrote this great book about Churchill has been to my house a lot. Neil Ferguson, who was another terrific historian. I mean, Cass Sunstein is not a historian, but he writes a lot about impeachment. I love listening to those, those those kind of minds at play. I mean, I just enjoy, I enjoy that. It's like the constant sort of post grad dinner party, have somebody over and then you just kind of brain vacuum them for the night. They leave exhausted but I'm very happy at the end of it.
Alan Fleischmann
Which is actually fun and importantly, it actually has served dual purposes, which is extraordinary. You know, you've also got a great legacy. Now, you know, when you when you look at New Yorker, Vanity Fair, Tatler, and you look at these incredible publications that, you know, one could easily argue without any correction needed, that they all kind of grew up even further under your leadership.
Tina Brown
I actually do feel that, you know, an index of leadership is what you leave behind. I mean, people who leave and everything collapses. I don't regard them as having been successful, because they clearly didn't put a structure in place, people in place, loyalty to the institution in place. And I must say that the things that I have edited, I was able to put in place wonderful people who then assumed the mantle. Each time I've been able to pick my successor, and they've been very good, you know, and David Remnick, who I hired at the New Yorker has obviously been.
John Hickenlooper
You hired David Remnick?
Tina Brown
Absolutely. I did. Yes, he was a Russian, he was the Moscow correspondent for The Washington Post. And he came back from Moscow. He wrote a piece or two and I just thought he was absolutely brilliant, and offered him a job almost immediately he returned. And he was one of my early hires, actually, yes, absolutely. I had I found Jeffrey Toobin when he was an Assistant DA and needed a legal person. And, you know, I hired him on instinct. I do. I can't remember what it was he said that maybe you want to hire him because I do hire very impetuously and I said, We need a legal correspondent, you know, join us. And the first four or five pieces really didn't work at all. And actually, it was I was just thinking, I'll give him one more chance. And then the OJ simpson thing happened. And I said, Jeffrey, go to LA and cover the OJ Simpson trial and he just clicked. You know, he clicked in and became the best person on that trial and of course he wrote a great book about it now he's a CNN legal correspondent et cetera. So yeah, no, and Malcolm Gladwell is another another of my hires.
Alan Fleischmann
Get out.
Tina Brown
Oh, yeah. Malcolm Gladwell was a book reviewer. And I liked one of his book reviews. And again, I can't remember what it was it made me say, join the whole show as a writer, but I said, this guy's versatile. And I hired him and almost straight away he wrote this short piece called the tipping point.
Alan Fleischmann
Became a great book.
Tina Brown
And instantly became a viral sensation, before it was viral.
John Hickenlooper
It became a tipping point of itself, but you were able to pick out someone because, you know, at one point he had three books on the top 25 bestsellers at one time. I've never heard of anyone doing that.
Tina Brown
And one of the things about Malcolm is true, of Jeffrey too actually, they—not every journalist has great ideas for themselves. You know, some people are wonderful writers, but have really dull ideas. Part of an editor's job is to sort of triage an idea and sort of mold it into an idea that's going to work. And in the case of both Jeffrey Ttoobin and Gladwell, actually, they always have very good ideas for themselves. And they knew what they—they could have both been editors themselves, actually. So Malcolm was obviously very good at picking his own story. You never had to give him a story.
Alan Fleischmann
You also—they all of them have something in common too where they make the most intellectual ideas accessible.
Tina Brown
Yes.
Alan Fleischmann
And that's what you did also with Vanity Fair and the New Yorker, I mean, I grew up where the New Yorker was stacked up in my house and only in a certain age that I started looking at it, but it was always inaccessible. It was always the thing that you read, you know, almost like you know, you read the Economist, you read the New Yorker.
Tina Brown
—famously said the New Yorker was easier to praise than to read. Wonderful.
John Hickenlooper
Except for those incredible cartoons.
Alan Fleischmann
Yes, but you made it accessible. You made it all of a sudden, that anyone could read it, learn from it, share it, and it wasn't just the elites.
Tina Brown
Well, I think that's a critical thing. I mean, in editing and indeed in politics, I mean, the people who can't explain, I mean, everybody says Bill Clinton's the great explainer, but it is his gift is that he can take a very intellectual topic and make it into something that feels personal to you. That is something that is a very rare thing isn't it, in politics.
John Hickenlooper
It's rare everywhere. And I think that you—that ability, the capacity for distillation, to take complexity, and get it down to the essentials, and then lay them out in a way that people, they don't just hear it, but it sticks with them. It really is whether you're the CEO of a company, or whether you're running a giant nonprofit, or someone—like some of the women that you cover, you're actually trying to push back against a, you know, an injustice on a, you know, on a country-wide scale. A lot of is that you got to be able to communicate to people exactly what the problem is, and what you're going to do and transcend time.
Tina Brown
And there are some topics which people are just—. You know, if you say the word climate change, people just turn over the page. I mean, I've been the same way for years, but only now have I figured out a way to do it, which is about narratives about what is actually happening to people from these things. And when you have those voices telling you, then you can suddenly understand this is not a topic, it is a tragedy, a crisis, a personal situation, you know, and I think people only start to care when they feel that.
John Hickenlooper
Yeah, climate changes the great—you know, we've been out, Colorado is a big center for outdoor recreation, and we've been helping organize the outdoor recreation industry in a non-partisan way to, I mean, and we've kept it to clean air, clean water, public lands, that's it, and especially the millennials aren't that interested, most of them in are your Republican or Democrat, they just be done with it. And so we're trying to find ways to get them, you know, involved and engaged.
Tina Brown
In the actual causes, because the partisan —
John Hickenlooper
And we have carefully not used the word climate change, because it has become so polarized and there's been so many billions of dollars trying to discredit it as science, right?
Tina Brown
Absolutely. No, that is absolutely true. That's very smart to avoid that phrase,
Alan Fleischmann
And also incubating ideas, the idea that you created these opportunities. Millennials want to know that you're not only caring about the issues I care about, but you're going to do something with it in an urgent matter.
John Hickenlooper
And begin to go out and connect networks of people that already have a shared passion or love, and then expand that just enough so that they get I mean, you think about it, the National Rifle Association is a nonpartisan political action arm, I think, I'm not sure anyone knows exactly what four and a half million members, something like that. But Recreational Equipment Incorporated. So REI, the big Co Op in outdoor recreation, they have 15 million members. And again, they could do—to bring them together around political action that is nonpartisan, but just around clean air, clean water, public lands, I think, given the chaos in Washington, some of that organizing, which is what you've really done, you've been outside of politics. I mean, you've been involved in politics, but finding ways to organize movements outside of politics many times which sometimes that seems like the best way these days.
Tina Brown
I think it's the future.
John Hickenlooper
Exactly. That we have become so muddled up and so chaotic.
Alan Fleischmann
So used to technology, so brilliant, and wonderful as we can communicate with one another without the middleman, without the middle person interrupting us.
Tina Brown
No, because Washington does start to feel like a kind of irrelevant, strange thing over there. And all of the excitement is in cities and causes and self organizing. I mean, that's sort of where the energy is.
Alan Fleischmann
That's why leaders who actually come from business, leaders who come from being mirrors are used to getting things done, and when they can translate that into politics, they get things done.
John Hickenlooper
And Tina, while we should stop just for a moment and say you're listening to John Hickenlooper and Alan Fleischmann on Leadership Matters, Sirius XM. And we're talking to Tina Brown. But Alan, you were.
Tina Brown
You did that really well, John. You got this next career change right.
John Hickenlooper
We'll see. But the—before we took the mid hour break, Alan, you had mentioned that Tina's prowess in terms of mentoring people and really, you know, opening up opportunities and connecting to other people that could help them. I think that was a great line, I thought we should go back and make sure we don't let that slip away. I mean, tell us a little bit about how you first kind of got involved in that.
Tina Brown
Well, I mean, I love finding I, you know, look, I'm good at talent spotting.
John Hickenlooper
Clearly.
Tina Brown
But more important than talent spotting is, then what do you do about it? I mean, you see somebody who's really talented, and you want to see how you can grow them, right. SoI've done a lot of that in my career with writers particularly. I mean, I've taken them aboard and really worked with them to make them better than they were, you know. And some of that is about knowing what they should be doing, for instance. As I mentioned, that you have to choose things that they should be doing and tell them what they shouldn't be doing. And also, I mean, I feel super responsiveness is incredibly important when you're mentoring writers and editors that, you know, you need to get them feedback in real time. Not to the point you're micromanaging. But but they want to hear from you. And they want to hear from you even when it's not important. So I mean, I do—I'm very communicative when I'm when I take somebody into my sort of—
Alan Fleischmann
I betcha. But there's a link though, when we talk about the mentorship part, you know, you seem to want to go after those who are dealing with fragile issues and are vulnerable and protect them. And at the same time, you're very courageous, and you're quite feisty, maybe to your own demise, at going after the bullies.
Tina Brown
When I do go after the boys, I've had a few of my life. I noticed that you haven't mentioned the fact that I went to work with Harvey Weinstein. Best career move. We together started a magazine, which was short lived. And boy, that was a turbulent two years. But you know, he would do the opposite, frankly. I mean, I don't think you get anything out of people by bullying them, actually. I mean, I've never found that a successful technique. Frankly, I do you think being communicative is important. I tell people when their work is good. I tell them even when they've left working for me that their work is good. I like to tell people—I can't help myself, I find myself you know, sending a note like best piece, pitty you didn't make the last paragraph first. It's like, wait a minute, you don't work for me anymore. But I do think that people appreciate that, which I think keeps loyalty going. Because it's a very lonely business. Very often anything creative, you know, and in the case of women in the world, the woman that that I find, and I stay in touch with them for a long time. I mean, I do. I have to say. And you know, I try when I find someone I really love like an Obiageli Ezekwesili. Wonderful Nigerian woman I think you met her in Davos. So she started the bring back our girls movement. And she is a remarkable humanitarian woman who really has worked to try to find the girls who were kidnapped by Boko Haram. And she kept up her fight year after year. And I have taken her I mean, she laughed, she said to me, how can you— why do you keep doing this? But I just love her. She said I really—she's just gained so many donors for her movement, and so many connections that have helped her from the exposure that we've been able to give her. And I love her and now she's running for president of Nigeria, and what am I doing? I'm trying to find expatriate Nigerians to give her the money for our campaign, but I stay attached to people for a long time and it's sometimes, it can be to my detriment because I have a very full inbox, shall we say, and find myself getting a little bit ragged at times. But I'd rather have an overflowing you know, glass, than one that's empty, frankly.
John Hickenlooper
In many ways, you are the opposite of a bully in that sense that and you know, when you grow up as a skinny kid with thick glasses and a funny last name like Hickenlooper, I know something about the schoolyard bullies, right? I mean, pooping scooper, chicken cooper, you go down the list. But you're the opposite. Because you take a kind of a distanced approach to a bully, and actually bring humor to the issue, and almost leave the bully to kind of wave their arms in the side. You focus on people around the world and especially women who are the antidote to bullies, right?
Tina Brown
Yeah, I do try to do that. I mean, look, like anybody else, I don't do well with bullies myself. I mean, when I got bullied by Harvey, it was not pleasant. I mean, I experienced that erosion of confidence that happens when you have somebody, you know, going at you in a way that's that's very—trying to demoralize your confidence, it can easily happen very quickly.
Alan Fleischmann
It can spiral. Of all that you built and all of a sudden have it be zero.
Tina Brown
Amazing how quickly you can be decimated by that, as a matter of fact, which is a scary thing. So I'm very much aware of it and I do hate it and it does make the rebel in me rise. You know.
Alan Fleischmann
I'm imagining you because we've now learned that you've been, you know, thrown out three times and now imagining you as this sweet little kid who would—who was picked on and I imagine you now protecting John in the courtyard.
Tina Brown
I think it was Masha Gessen who said you're either a collaborator or a resistor. And I love it so much because everybody thinks they're resistors or says they are. But when it comes to it, most people are collaborators is the awful truth.
Alan Fleischmann
Or they're silent, which is a difference, which is the biggest collaborator.
Tina Brown
So I do think I've always been resistant. I like to feel that I am a real resistor.
John Hickenlooper
You are clearly. I don't think you have to worry about. I think that horses out of the barn. I think it's out of the barn.
Alan Fleischmann
This is Leadership Matters. Sirius XM insight channel 121. It's Alan Fleischmann, with my good friend, Governor John Hickenlooper. And today we've been having this great conversation with you, Tina Brown, you're an iconic leader, as well as an iconic journalist and convener. And I kind of want to get into the last few minutes of the show today talking about leadership because, you know, these values, that you're talking about, the courage to speak up. What you just were talking about a few moments ago, about, you know, frankly, the greatest collaborator is those who are indifferent. In essence, that's what you're saying, those who are standing by and letting other things happen. You know, you're outraged, you know, people know you as somebody who's willing to be outraged. I'd love to get a sense of as a mentor, as a, frankly, someone who inspires others, what you see as the great qualities of a leader, and what you look for in a leader, and how you actually help others lead.
Tina Brown
Well I think a leader does not look behind them to say, well, somebody here should do something about this. I mean, a leader is somebody who decides, they feel outraged enough that they're not going to stop and ask who else or where is the other person, they're actually going to think, I feel so passionate about this, I'm the person to fix this. It doesn't always happen in a big shining light moment, either. I mean, it can grow as an idea. I know when I first took over Vanity Fair, I didn't initially say yes to the job. I came in as a consultant. And there was another editor there—there had been two editors actually ahead of me. The second editor then was there, and they wanted me to kind of support him. And I started by supporting him. And then I realized he couldn't do it, that he couldn't do it, you know? And they came to me, and they said, well, will you do it? And I still thought, well, but you know, I don't know anybody in America or my, everybody's in England, I ought to really, I shouldn't do this. Maybe it's not the right time. And so I said, Well, I need a few months, you know, I don't know. And I did it and I choked, actually. And it was really when I sat there at home thinking, oh my God, I've blown it. You know, I should have said yes. And why didn't I say yes. And I came to realize as I sat there, of course, I should do it. You know, it took me that amount of time. And then fortunately for me, the other editor completely messed up. And they sent for me and I said yes, at that time, and I knew then, wholeheartedly that I was the one to do it. But I think some of that was about being a woman to be honest, because we tend to ask ourselves, am I qualified? You know, can I really? Is it my turn? So that I did go through that, but at the same time, I had a huge conviction that I could do it. And once I had said yes, I didn't have any fear about whether I could do it. I only had fear about whether I will be given enough time to do it, you know, that, was it going to fold before I could end up doing it? But I knew I knew how to do it. It was just about getting it to work and getting all the pieces in place. And it was just about would Conde Nast magazine stand by me for at least—I knew it was going to take at least a year and a half to get all my blocks in play to win, you know. And it nearly closed actually about a year into my editorship, S.I. Newhouse, the chairman summoned me and said, You know, we're gonna close it. And I just kind of like did the sales pitch of my life. I said, just give me six months, I said, I have all of this great stuff, I have this piece, I have this piece, I have this piece. I know that we're about to pull it off. And he said, okay, you can have six months. And thank God, in that time, we pulled off a lot of scoops that just took us over the edge. And all of a sudden we were on the number one on the Adweek hot list of the best magazines and so on. But it was touch and go. And I think passion is an incredibly important factor. You have to have passion and show it you know, you have to show your passion and show other people that you're going to fight for it, fight for them, fight for your staff, stand up for people. And know, you know, that your own staff are going to fail too, you know, and you have to allow that.
Alan Fleischmann
Take a risk.
Tina Brown
Yeah, you've got to be able to support your people. And they should know that you're there for them.
Alan Fleischmann
You know, I get the pleasure of working with CEOs and leaders around the world, give them advice, and a few years ago, launched my own firm after being a partner with another. And one of my very, very wonderful friends and clients sent me a note just the day that I was resigning to start my own firm. And he said you are enough. And there's something—I'm now a dad of daughters and I keep thinking and telling them all the time. You are enough your voice matters and that we need to hear it. And that's a message we don't hear enough of and now.
Tina Brown
I just talking about mentoring. I was just mentoring an Indian friend of mine who is another one of these great women I have and she has been in a kind of relationship where she has been doing everything, everything in this enterprise which has become a huge success. And the man who has her partner is so abusive to her and so disrespectful and so you know, minimizing her credit and cutting her out of the important aspects and so forth. And she said, I've just finally decided, I mean, should I? Should I go out on my own? And I said, Yes, you can. She said, Can I really do this? I said, Of course you can do it. You're doing it now. But somebody else.
Alan Fleischmann
It'll liberate you.
Tina Brown
It'll you liberate. I'm just so happy as I arrived today, I got a text from her saying, You're so right, you know, this is the moment I'm gonna stand out, and I'm just gonna do it. And I was so happy for her because she absolutely can do it. She has been doing it. She's been doing it for the last five years, but she has—
Alan Fleischmann
Against a lot of adversity and difficulty.
Tina Brown
Against a lot of difficulty. And the sense that, you know, she's been doing it in the shadow of somebody who is not appreciative. I mean, it's fine to be doing it, having a partner who's you know, your partner, all the rest, but not one who's continually saying, You're not they're not an important factor here.
Alan Fleischmann
Are there, you know, you've been so extraordinary at identifying leaders in your career, you've helped empower so many people. It's a word that we don't use enough of, and though maybe it's overused as well, are there leaders out there that—you get to the underbelly of what makes them tick—that you admire? Are there people that you wake up public, private civil society, you say, you know, there's they're people I admired. It's risky to do that nowadays.
Tina Brown
What actually, I greatly admire Indra Nooyi, the CEO of Pepsi, I mean, she is now finally resigning after, you know, a good long time at the helm of that I mean, she, you know, we don't have that many sort of women who are, that you can point to as the sort of Titans you know, of business and she really was. I mean, she led that company decade in, you know, over a decade to huge business success. And that is a really tough, competitive, massive, you know, multi-conglomerate. She raised her two daughters at the same time, managed to do that as well. Managed to stay, above all, managed to stay an extraordinary human being, you know, she never lost her—
Alan Fleischmann
Humaneness.
Tina Brown
Her humaneness. I greatly admire her. I think she's extraordinary. Actually, I very much admire Christine Lagarde. I think she's another one who has been elegant, brilliant, subtle, funny, you know, she's managed to stay an amazing woman. A candid, wonderful woman who can still have a gorgeous relationship with her husband, who she is clearly in love with and all of that stuff.
Alan Fleischmann
The mastery of being—I told this to my daughters—of being, you can be bringing femininity to leadership.
Tina Brown
Absolutely.
Alan Fleischmann
And not try to, you know. The boys kind of act like the other side of the equation a little bit more.
Tina Brown
What I mean, Ruth Bader Ginsburg is a great hero of mine, you know, and she had this remarkable love relationship with Marty Ginsburg, who for years, mentored her, you know, supported her, allowed her to grow. They had the most amazing marriage but here she was this radically powerful brain, you know, who has helped to reinvent the laws of America for, to be, you know, gender equity. So she's a remarkable figure who I admire hugely too and very much hope that her good health continues.
Alan Fleischmann
Yes, we need it. You know, you've been, you know, cutting edge with everything you're doing. You'd you mentioned earlier, you've got this new podcast platform that you're going to be, I know, spotlighting leaders yet again.
Tina Brown
TBD with Tina Brown.
Alan Fleischmann
Yes. How are you going to be doing it?
Tina Brown
Weekly.
Alan Fleischmann
Weekly. Fantastic.
Tina Brown
Yes. I'm doing Aaron Sorkin. I've done, you know, doing some really—Michael Douglas, actually next week, he's such an entertaining guy, still. I've known him for years. And his new TV series, The Kominsky Method.
Alan Fleischmann
I literally just watched like seven episodes—binge watching of the original seven I think within within three days.
Tina Brown
Isn't it hilarious?
Alan Fleischmann
It's fantastic.
Tina Brown
It's wonderful. I agree. He's so good. He's such a pro. He's so interesting.
Alan Fleischmann
Well, we know one thing we know that when we're thinking about the past, and how we can actually we interpret it when we were thinking about what we need to look at the future, you're going to be on top of it. And the who, the what, the where, the where, and the how. So I'm thrilled and I'm looking forward to having you back on the show again and spend more time with you. You're really amazing, Tina, and we're very grateful for you.
Tina Brown
Thank you, Alan.
John Hickenlooper
What a wonderful session and I can't remember the time—I can't remember the last time I had so much fun and felt like I, you know, I've known you Tina for quite a while. And I feel like there's, you know, a whole world out there that I was missing out on. I mean, what can I say?
Tina Brown
Well, now that I have my own podcast TBD with Tina Brown, you are not going to get away. You're getting dragged into my seat.
John Hickenlooper
Fair is fair.
Alan Fleischmann
One of the coolest things about you, Tina, I'm so glad we did have this today because you are evidence that one can do well in the world and still be authentic and true. And you speak the truth wherever you are, whether it's in a small setting, to your own demise. But today we heard it and I'm really glad you were on the show.
John Hickenlooper
Sometimes it's the subversive truth. All right, we're on Leadership Matters. This is John Hickenlooper and Alan Fleischmann. And we've had a wonderful wonderful time with Tina Brown. Thank you so much.
Tina Brown
See you soon, John.
John Hickenlooper
Thank you.
Tina Brown
Excited about your future.
John Hickenlooper
We'll see, thanks.
Tina Brown
I'll be there for you.
