Dana Firas

Princess of Jordan

“We need leadership to remind us that it's one globe and it's one humanity...This pandemic has shown us that something that affects you in one corner of the world could affect me in the other”

Summary

Alana and his good friend Princess Dana Firas of Jordan discuss cultural heritage and Dana’s leadership as a UNESCO Goodwill Ambassador.

Dana grew up in Jordan with an appreciation for the many cultural heritage sites around the country. Her Royal Highness went on to study at Boston University, the London School of Economics, and Harvard, where she was a Fulbright Scholar.

In 1999, she married Prince Firas al Ra’ad and helped establish the King Hussein Foundation. She currently serves as the President of the Board of Directors of Petra National Trust, where she is dedicated to the preservation of the ancient city of Petra.

Mentions & Resources in this Episode

• Petra National Trust is a nonprofit organization dedicated to the preservation, protection, and conservation of the UNESCO World Heritage site of Petra

• UNESCO is a specialized agency of the United Nations aimed at promoting world peace and security through international cooperation in education, the sciences, and culture

• The King Hussein Foundation is a nonprofit dedicated to perpetuating His Majesty King Hussein's commitment to peace and sustainable development through social and educational programs

Guest Bio

Princess Dana Firas (Dana Nabil; née Toukan; born 1970) is a Jordanian princess and the wife of the prince Firas Bin Raad. She is a global advocate for heritage protection and preservation as a foundation for development, responsible tourism, identity and political participation, and peace building. She serves as the President of the Board of Directors of Petra National Trust and is a liaison with The Royal Hashemite Court and Jordanian government ministries. She was named a UNESCO Goodwill ambassador in June 2017 , and her advocacy for the cause of cultural heritage preservation and awareness resulted in their inclusion in two World Tourism Organization declarations.

Follow Princess Dana Firas on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter.

Clips from this Episode

• “The biggest threats to Petra are natural threats, like climate change.”

• “After natural threats, we are the biggest threat to these sights.”

• On her “incredibly valuable" work with UNESCO.

• On the need to build inclusive identities through our cultures.

• “We have an opportunity to reconsider where the tourism sector is going.”

Episode Transcription

Alan Fleischmann

Welcome to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM. I'm your host Alan Fleischmann. I am so pleased to introduce you to someone I've known for about 20 years, a very good friend of mine, Princess Dana Firas of Jordan. Donna is a heritage preservation advocate and leader, a UNESCO Goodwill Ambassador, whose main focus has been bringing awareness to the importance of cultural sites in Jordan, and frankly around the world. As President of the Board of Directors of Petra National Trust, she is dedicated to the preservation of the ancient city of Petra, one of the most beautiful spots in the world, in the southern part of the country of Jordan. In her role, she has advocated for education and tourism as ways to involve citizens and protecting these priceless historical assets. Donna has degrees from Boston University and Harvard, where she was a Fulbright Scholar. She was also on the Fulbright Commission in Jordan, helped establish the King Hussein Foundation, of which she was the active director until the year 2000. And is noted as an international speaker who speaks out about the importance of cultural and heritage preservation. Please welcome, thank you so much for being here.

Dana Firas

It is a pleasure to be here and to be speaking with you and your audience. And it's always wonderful to see you.

Alan Fleischmann 

I wish we could see you in person. I can't wait to see you in person soon.

Dana Firas

Yes, exactly. Exactly. I cannot believe you just let the cat out of the bag and said 20 years.

Alan Fleischmann

It's been I think, right? It's been a lot. And actually, if you really take into account, your husband and my wife, the friendship even goes longer.

Dana Firas

Exactly.

Alan Fleischmann

They met at university.

Dana Firas

That's right. But we're still very young at heart, all of us.

Alan Fleischmann 

I am extremely young. You are extremely young. I can't speak for the other two, but they'll fight for themselves. But they are. Well, this is great. You know, what I'm hoping to get out of this is that your leadership is not as well known in our part of the world. But your leadership, I would argue is as significant and as impactful in all parts of the world. And I'd love to get that out there because what you're fighting for, and what you've been fighting for, is so important. And actually, I would argue more relevant today than any other time as we are trying to distinctly identify each individual culture as one of their own, and build respect, respect for other cultures as being part of all of ours, history and culture. So I'm really excited to get it I thought interesting for our listeners to hear a little bit about your family growing up. You come from a very close family I know. And then how did you get this love of history and culture?

Dana Firas

It started at a very young age actually, because I've always gone out with my family with my grandparents to discover parts of Jordan to picnic in different places. And we've always called Jordan an open air museum. We have over 100,000 heritage sites throughout the country, only about 30,000 or so of them are properly documented and registered. And so anywhere you go, you are more likely than not to be sitting somewhere very very special with an incredible history and that has always been very very special. And what was very attractive at a very young age there were all the legends related to finding gold in different places. And so we grew always grew up with these legends of buried gold anywhere you dig and anywhere you go and so there's always been this interest in these beautiful places, in the mystery of these places, and what they meant to people who walked in these very sands on these very rocks for thousands of years. And it sparked my imagination and I've always been very curious about these beautiful sights.

Alan Fleischmann 

Did you read a lot of books growing up?

Dana Firas

Yes, I did. And funnily enough, it was always the mystery of places the mystery of all of these ancient places, these different civilizations. The Wrinkle Through Time, the Little Prince, all my favorite books were always about exploring and the different legends related to all these different places and being that lone traveler that goes from place to place to see and learn and adventure and explore and that has continued and carried with me to this day.

Alan Fleischmann

And we use it. And as you got older, obviously, as you were growing up in Jordan, how aware were you about these cultural sites? Even just hearing you say 100,000 cultural sites just stuns me because that just gives you a little bit of humility and pause and then realizes how sacred this is. Because you know the importance and to appreciate the importance. So how did you actually come to actually become aware of the specific ones? And did that just come naturally?

Dana Firas

No, actually. My relationship with the sites evolved and grew as I grew, as well. And for many, many years, I didn't know very much about the sites other than they were places of mystery, places where the ancients have gone and walked. And as I grew up, I began to understand a little bit more about the sites. Living in Amman, my focus has always been the north of Jordan. So funnily enough, I never actually went to Petra until high school. It was my first visit to Petra. And otherwise, it was the north of Jordan that I explored much more than the south of Jordan. And because it was green. So in the north of Jordan, there are many trees, and it's a green area. And so there was a great pleasure in in exploring the green areas, as opposed to the harshness of the deserts of the south of Jordan, which I only really learned to love much later in life and to appreciate the beauty of these places, much later in life. My first visit to Petra was in the early 80s. I think it was pre 85, so it was not designated as a World Heritage Site yet. So there were no restrictions on going in or going out and what you did or didn't do.

Alan Fleischmann

It had not been restored yet, either. There was a lot of restoration.

Dana Firas

Yes, exactly. It was a very different site from the site that you see today. In many ways, I'm going to say that it was a much more beautiful site because it really was a ghost town in so many ways. And to experience the magnificence, the majesty of Petra when there's no one else around. I think there's nothing like that. And we had hiked all the way up to Aaron's tomb, which is a very, very small, but very holy site in Petra. Hardly anyone makes the trek up there because, at the time, there was no real path. And so it took us three hours to hike up. And we ended up spending the night up on the roof of the tomb under the stars. The most magical experience. Not allowed today with today's rules and regulations governing the site and the numbers of people who come in and out of the site. But to be in a place that is truly holy to so many people in this incredible setting, quiet under the stars, was really the first time that I fell in love with the site.

Alan Fleischmann

Wow, and what a memory because no one could ever do that today. So that was something you could do that nobody could do. And that's obviously changed, which we're going to get to in a minute as well. You're listening to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM. I'm your host, Alan Fleischman. I'm here with my very good friend, Princess Donna Firas from Jordan. And we're talking about her leadership and focus and advocacy for heritage sites and cultural sites around the world. How did your decision to study in the states, first at Boston University, and then later at Harvard, as a Fulbright Scholar come about? And then how do you think that's affected your journey?

Dana Firas

Well, I've always wanted to study in the United States. And so even throughout high school, there was always this vision of going to the US and to benefit from the incredible education, educational institutions that the US is very well known for throughout the world. And so it's always an aspiration for students from throughout the world to get to the United States and to be able to benefit from this incredible privilege that is an American education and I was exactly the same and I ended up in the US and it has had an incredible impact. I mean, I won't be the person that I am today if it hadn't been for my education in the United States. It has taught me how to think. It has taught me very important values. I never understood the true concept of what a melting pot is. Equality and fighting for equality, exercising your right to say whatever it is that you believe in, in an environment that respects anyone and everyone. My personal quest for making the values that I learned in the United States, my own sort of path through life, I owe all this to Boston University and to Harvard. and to my experience in the US. I owe a huge debt of gratitude to my years in the US.

Alan Fleischmann

And you obviously speak beautiful English. Did you speak beautiful English when you arrived at Boston University? It sounds like you had British schooling.

Dana Firas

I did. I went through the torturous A-level system in Jordan. I think I have less of a British accent because of the time that I spent in the US.

Alan Fleischmann

A lot more ore Americanized, over the time. How did you meet your husband, Prince Firas? And did becoming royalty affect your awareness and identity as a Jordanian?

Dana Firas

We met often through family friends. Although we never clicked as a couple, but only as good friends for many, many years. Then things took a more romantic turn during the World Cup. So we actually owe soccer for all the time we spent in front of the big screen screaming and shouting at teams. And that is what sort of got us together. And I think it was the 1998 World Cup. And we started dating as a result of spending a lot of time together watching those matches, it's a big, big deal in Jordan. And when we got married, it was very different. My life took a very different turn, in that I felt acutely a sense of responsibility that I hadn't felt before and that and that I needed to understand how much of what I do had to be for the benefit of Jordan and the people of Jordan. And I think that sense of responsibility towards the country and towards the people of Jordan was what I didn't think about before the marriage,

Alan Fleischmann

And was it something that there were people around, they were trying to help you find your niche? Or is it one of those things where you better figure it out yourself?

Dana Firas

Yeah, a little bit, was a lot of trial and error. And the lovely thing about being a member of the royal family in Jordan is that there is great freedom to pursue those interests that you believe in, and want to pursue. And that freedom, I mean, it's not a very rigid institution, it's an institution that enables you to really find your own path within it and to pursue those things that you believe in. Also, there's a different relationship between Jordan and the people who don't and the monarchy in Jordan, because we're all working people. It's less of a sense of disconnect between the royal family of Jordan and the people of Jordan than you might find elsewhere, and really, every member of the family works very, very hard, and does pursue their passions and give back to Jordan in so many ways. And it's very connected to the country and to the people and to the pulse of the street.

Alan Fleischmann

Which is so important because then you look at the world through the eyes of your brothers and sisters, rather than by both perspectives, I guess, and in many ways globally and locally.

Dana Firas

Yeah. And it is a very different sort of political context than you might expect, actually, and one that has kept all the members of the family very connected to Jordan and to the people of Jordan. And you saw Jordan navigate many crises and many ups and downs over the years with confidence and with the support of its people when that wasn't the case and other places around us because of that.

Alan Fleischmann

That's great. And how were you thinking about how you could actually tap your position as a member of the family to bring about important change? Was it expected of you right away? You were so young.

Dana Firas 

I mean, it took me quite a bit of time to figure out my own path. When my husband and I got married, it was a difficult year. 1998 was the year when King Hussein was undergoing treatment in the United States for cancer. So it was a difficult year for us and for many Jordanians, because of the uncertainty and the great love that people felt for King Hussein. And the prospect of losing him was really almost insurmountable in the minds of so many. And so when we got married, we got married after His Majesty had passed away. Six months after His Majesty had passed away. So that first year was a year of transition for Jordan. And we both felt that we were also in transition, and then we decided to spend one year in Jordan, so the family can be together, and we can do whatever we can to support each other. And then we left. Both of us were Fulbright Scholars, and we went to the US for a few years after that. And eight years later, we returned full-time to Jordan. But in that whole time, I was still in the process of really figuring out how it is that I can make a difference for Jordan, what it is that I can contribute, where I'd like to make my mark, what is the space that is available to me that I can make a difference. And at the same time, do something that I love as well that and I'm passionate about. And I've always been passionate about cultural issues and environmental issues. So this cultural natural heritage business has always been something that I've been passionate about. And coming back to Jordan, I sort of found my way into that through the Petro National Trust. Which I'd known about and was very familiar with, because of the fact that it was under the patronage of Queen Noor. And so I was familiar with the organization and the executive director of the organization at the time was a friend of mine. And so I knew what they were doing, what it was all about, and found myself really getting much more involved.

Alan Fleischmann 

And you had been involved in the original King Hussein Foundation. And there was some connectivity there, too, if I'm not mistaken.

Dana Firas

Yes. Correct. Yeah. When His Majesty passed away, and Queen Noor was establishing a foundation in his name, to really honor the commitment that he had, that was quite visionary to many issues, including the idea of peace and his work that he did for peace in the Middle East to enable young people to really pursue a life of opportunity and stability. And on environmental issues, he was really passionate about the environment and the connections between health and the environment and the importance of sort of a clean environment, healthy ecosystem for human health and well being. And he was speaking about those connections well before they became sort of more mainstream. And the foundation was established to honor this vision and these ideas that he espoused, and I was part of a big team that worked on the establishment of the King Hussein Foundation.

Alan Fleischmann

And what year then did you take on the responsibility and president of the Petro National Trust?

Dana Firas

So the King Hussein Foundation was 1999. And then after that, in September of 2000, my husband and I went back to the United States for a few years. And then it was 2012 or 2013 that I started getting involved with the Petra National Trust in Jordan, although I had done some work for them while we were in the US, I ran for the board, and I was elected as an Officer of the board and became much more engaged. And I think I did my friendly take over because it was my father-in-law, who was head of the board in 2016, or 2017. And stayed at the helm. I'm still at the helm of the organization now,

Alan Fleischmann

tell us a little bit also for our listeners, to know a little bit more of those who've had the great joy of seeing Petra's significance, but what is the historic significance of the ancient city of Petra? And why is its preservation so critical?

Dana Firas

So there are many, many reasons why Petra is different and significant. It was probably the only civilization of this part of the world that was of this part of the world. So the Nabateans were Arab tribes, and their kingdom in its heyday went from Syria, all the way down to Saudi Arabia, and to Gaza, in on the sort of the west side, if you're looking at a map and it was a civilization that really was quite innovative. When they started building their capital and Petra, they depended on the trade routes and on pilgrimage to pilgrimage sites in the Hejaz and Mecca in Saudi Arabia. And so they were able to harness water because Petra is built between two mountain ranges, so it's in a valley. And so they were able to harness rainwater to have a year-long continuous source of fresh water, that tribes going up and down through the trade routes north to southeast and west could stop and rest. And there was, at the time, a very vibrant commercial life, a very vibrant agricultural life. They levied taxes well before they minted coins. The kings and queens of the Nabatean Kingdom were both very important. And it was probably one of the few ancient civilizations where a picture of the Queen was on the coin. It was not just the king. It was the king and queen who were on the coin. So there was this sense of more of a sort of a gender component, equality component in that civilization. And so there it really shows the innovation and the resilience of people who were able to turn the desert and a place that is really rather remote and quite inaccessible, into an oasis of commerce and agriculture. And so this idea of making the most of your environment, resilience, really building from nothing, is very much a hallmark of novelty and civilization. But then the geography of the area is something that is incredibly unique. So these mountains that are blessed with sort of an incredible rainbow of natural colors, the reds, the pinks, the burgundies, the yellows that you find in the sandstone and then the quality of the sandstone being so fragile, and they were able to work with it and create these incredible architectural monuments that really in person are larger than life and stunning, majestic, massive in their size and the impact they have on on the visitor. And then its size, it's 264 square kilometers. It's a massive city. And it then became connected to other cities in the south of Syria, all the way down to Saudi Arabia. And so you have the spread of the civilization that was started by a few Arab tribes and built connections throughout the region, trade connections throughout the region.

Alan Fleischmann

Which is amazing. There's so many things she was just sharing just now about its beauty, its history, values, honestly, messages that we want to pull forward from time. And I guess a little bit of the awe. and I love the fact that you connect it back to the natural part of this. It's not even just the vision, but it's also how it becomes part of our nature.

Dana Firas

Yeah. And one of the most exceptional features of it, and why we need to preserve it, is its natural rock, its sandstone. And so it's very fragile. It is liable to erosion from rain, from wind, from seismic activity. And so the biggest threats to Petra are natural threats, which is something very important to keep in mind as we look at climate change and severe weather phenomena that are impacting the globe but are particularly damaging to structures as fragile as those that you find in Petra made of sandstone.

Alan Fleischmann

How do we combat that? Are there things that we can do? Is there a technology that we can preserve? Besides the fact that we need to do better at climate change and deal with the actual evils of climate change that we have to make sure that we're focused on and respect the fact that our climate matters? But besides that, are there certain things you are able to do to preserve?

Dana Firas

Yes, absolutely. I mean, as you have said, Petra, like every other city on this planet is heavily invested in ensuring that our policymakers, our decision-makers are making the right decision about the climate. And that's something that we are strongly invested in. Trying to advocate for all the time. But on the other hand, we also have incredible technologies today that enable us to study the state of the rocks, the state of conservation, and we are able to really understand the makeup of the rocks, we're able to come up with interventions that can stabilize the rocks, that could consolidate many of the rocks. One of the things that affects Petra specifically is flash flooding. And so the Nabateans had built a complete, incredible water system, including dams and collections, areas and channels, and cisterns that channeled the heavy rainwater through certain areas to ensure that the monuments and the people were protected. And over 1000s of years, these went into disrepair. And so one of the things we focus on also as the Petro National Trust is to try and revitalize and rebuild these water systems from antiquity so that they can serve the function that they were designed for 3000 years ago. And protect the sights, but there are so many ways with technology today, and radar and laser, and all sorts of other things that really enable us to understand what is happening to these monuments, how minute little changes can be tracked. And that also enables you to intervene much earlier on and prevent larger damage from happening before it becomes so visible, that there's very little that can be done about it.

Alan Fleischmann

What's amazing is you're going back to things that were originally their intention, right. In other words, they had the vision, they knew how to deal with these so long ago. you bring it back now as a way to actually have it useful again. what are the other threats to survival? Besides, I mean, obviously, besides environmental. I mean, is it one of the other threats that we need to be thinking about as well.

Dana Firas

One is the natural threats, but the other big ones are the human threats. We are the biggest threat to these sites after natural threats and that can be divided into all sorts of categories. One is management, mismanagement, and bad management. So if you don't have really well-formed, scientifically based management plans, you make many, many mistakes. Footprints. And so how many people are allowed to go into these sites at any one time. And that's something that's very important and quite frequently overlooked. Because the more people you have, the more income you have as a country as a local community. And so quite frequently, there aren't as many controls on the numbers of people that go through sites as there should be. What people do while they're in the sites. And so you really need to ensure that there are no harmful practices. People aren't climbing where they shouldn't be climbing. They're not using beautiful monuments as sort of places to leave their names for posterity, essentially, no graffiti. And then the presentation of the site. Another thing is urban encroachments. You see around many of these sites that there are hotels and museums and shops. And urban planning isn't as thoughtful or forward-looking as it should be. And that creates a lot of congestion. But it also prevents the poorest natural brown surface, whether it's soil or sand, from absorbing a lot of the water. And that creates more of a problem when it comes to water damage. Pollution is a big problem. Cars, buses there are all sorts of issues related to pollution that we have to think about. And I think this is not sort of a very popular position in any way. But political will, if you have the political will to ensure that a site is well managed and well taken care of, it will be. But if you don't have the political will, and if you're bending to pressures from this group or that group, if you're bending to sort of economic pressures, which are very real and very understandable. But still, ultimately, if the site is not well preserved, no one's going to want to visit it. And that has a more of a negative impact economically, in the long run.

Alan Fleischmann

Because culturally, it's a sign of that, I've heard you say, you've got a very strong belief that promoting the importance in cultural heritage, across face ethnicities, other barriers that usually divide, you can actually protect the heritage even more so. Because it becomes relatable to many more.

Dana Firas

Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that we've started doing is working with young people. And so we, at the Petro National Trust, wrote and developed a curriculum for school-aged children from the age of 7 all the way to the age of 18 that is built on exactly those values. The values that we find in our history and in those sites and represented in those sites. And many of them are, how do you respect the site? What does it mean to respect the site, by respecting the site, it means that you respect those who came before you, and what they did, and how they worked. And all of these things, really, at the end of the day, mean that you are placing equal importance on every civilization that has gone through. Every religion that has gone through. All of these things that come together, especially in our part of the world, we're really it is the cradle of civilizations and religions. And everywhere you go, you see these religions, you see these civilizations intersect in signs and in practices and those values. And if you don't begin to ingrain them in the hearts and minds of young people from a very, very early age. So they become the inheritors of a great legacy. They become the custodians of these sites for today and for the future. That is, in my opinion, the only way to reach a point where the pressure to protect and preserve becomes stronger than the pressure to use, promote, and abuse in so many ways.

Alan Fleischmann

So there's so many threats, so getting the message out, and I guess respect for sites globally, becomes a bigger issue. Because if you can make that recognition of respect and a passion for understanding you don't know your future without understanding your past, which I know you've talked about. I had the privilege of seeing you speak in New York pre-pandemic when you were being honored. And I know a big part of your global role and recognition is around the hard work you've done as a Goodwill Ambassador to UNESCO. It will tell us a little bit of what UNESCO is doing to accomplish some of those goals you have and what your role has managed to bring luster back to Jordan as well as position your successes with Petra, obviously, and other sites globally.

Dana Firas

Yeah. Well, UNESCO has become practically the only multi-state international organization that has Cultural Heritage Preservation as a goal, as one of its global goals. And the work that UNESCO has done is truly invaluable. Because not only are all of the rules and the laws, the international laws that we have today that we rely on everywhere in the world as the government of Jordan or as a non-governmental organization that's advocating for the preservation of the site, we all go back to those conventions that UNESCO worked on, and that UNESCO has pushed forward, that UNESCO has had states sign on to, the follow up that comes from an organization like UNESCO, and the support that comes from an organization like UNESCO. There's no one else out there at that interstate level that is doing this kind of work. And so it is incredibly valuable. And it is an organization that must be supported, and championed by us and the people who care about these things. The conventions are the legal backbone on which we rely, as we work to put management plans in action, to put conservation plans in action, to advocate for the protection and preservation of the sites. And my work would not hold the same kind of influence if I didn't have an organization like UNESCO, who was also doing the advocacy and the legal work at the global level as well. And I think I cannot overestimate the value that this organization has actually had. And to enable us to work on protecting the site. And also to enable governments to understand that these sites have value. They don't only have historic and cultural value, but also economic value, which is a language that that is important to speak, to get buy-in across the board from various stakeholders. And I think UNESCO has been very good at building those connections and enabling us to present these cases, to our governments, to our own governments about the importance of protecting and preserving the site. One of the things that I'm incredibly grateful to UNESCO for is this honor that they have given me has really become an important platform. And it's given me a voice that is backed by the UNESCO name. To really be able to speak about the importance of cultural heritage preservation in Jordan and internationally, to speak about the importance of these connections that we see in these sites, these connections between cultures, between civilizations, between human values, that that we all share across the board, and to be able to really build partnerships between countries and among countries, to promote cultural heritage as a building block for sustainable development. And for the value inherent in cultural heritage that is so important for us as people to appreciate one another, to celebrate diversity and differences, and to appreciate beauty. To look at the past and understand so much from what those who came before us did in times of difficulty, or in times of wealth and prosperity, and really understand how we can use this knowledge to build for a future.

Alan Fleischmann

You know, I was speaking with a friend the other day, who was the editor of a major destination travel magazine. And what was really striking to me was to hear that here we are in November 2020, in the midst of a pandemic, where people are not traveling, where tourism is not happening around the world, and yet he said the readership has been going up. And people are plotting and planning for what they're going to do once these restrictions are lifted. And I imagine because I've heard you speak about the importance of tourism, for cultural awareness, but also, you just brought up economics aspects of this. It's a huge part. You know, when people come to any country,  the political will more that there's a political will to say, we've got cherished sites here that we can share with you, like you do with Petra, and the more people are going to come. And I imagine what we imagine is hard to imagine right now. But we imagine the light at the end of the tunnel. Are you guys planning and thinking about ways in which from a UNESCO point of view globally, but also in Jordan? That we need to start to communicate that now, as people start to imagine where they want to be when this is over?

Dana Firas

Yeah, I think there's a lot of talk and a lot of buzz about sort of building back better. I'm constantly saying, I don't think we should be building back. Because we need to just look forward, many of the practices that we saw in the past were unsustainable, were irresponsible. And we have an opportunity now to really reconsider where we were going in the sector, whether it's sort of tourism, and the use of cultural heritage assets for tourism. And this, for me, is a wonderful opportunity right now. I mean, tourism has come to a complete stop. So I’ll give you just some numbers, so you can sort of get a sense. So in Jordan 2019, we saw 1.3 million people visit Petra. In 2020, it was, I don't know if even reached 1000 at some points, because the site was actually physically close, they closed in March, and it didn't open until the summer. And in the summer, it was only local tourists. So there were no flights, the airports remained closed until September. And so there is a big impact on the communities that depend on tourism and that live around these sites. So we have felt very strongly that this is the time to say you cannot have communities that are solely dependent on your traditional model of tourism, we've got to change all of that. We have to diversify what these communities are doing. We have to build on our cultural assets in more ways than just come and visit. Buy your bottle of water and go home. There's so much more in a cultural asset that can be utilized. And one of the things we have done, for example, at the Petro National Trust is we've worked with many very small local community organizations around in and around Petra to say, what can you produce that you have produced for generations? And how can we help you take that and market it internationally? Because everyone has gone digital. And so we have this opportunity to utilize the direction the world has gone in to enable you to continue to benefit from the culture of this site, if not sort of the physical visitors that are coming to the site. To continue to spread awareness about your culture, your history, your way of life. To be able to make some money out of it, and at the same time to continue to entice and prepare for a future when visitation will pick up again. But this time, let's think very carefully about how many people are we going to let into the site? How are they going to be buying their tickets? Do we need to ensure that you have staggered visitation? That you buy your ticket well ahead of time? How do we need to make sure that in this time where there's nobody there that we have different trails, so there's not a heavy impact in only certain parts of the site with congestion. And it's an exercise in learning from the mistakes that we have made in the past, and really planning for a future where we are much more thoughtful about how we present these sites, these cultural resources, how we use them, and how we ensure that the local communities that are so dependent on these sites find other ways to maintain their income and maintain themselves out of poverty when times are hard and unexpected things happen. Which will always happen.

Alan Fleischmann

That's so hard to write because it's that transition in between of knowing what we need to do to make sure we don't have this vulnerability yet again. And at the same time as we're doing that there are many people who are very vulnerable now.

Dana Firas

Yeah, I mean, it's actually quite tragic how many people have suffered from the lack of tourism, because their entire income was tourism-dependent. It's a very important lesson that we need to learn. And I think, as we begin to plan and build for a future, we need to build for a future that is much more resilient. We can look at the Nabateans themselves. It wasn't all about trade, it was also about agriculture. So there's always more than one interest in how you present your cultural assets.

Alan Fleischmann

And I know, one of the greatest ways to become entrepreneurial in history has been the merchants, the restaurants, the hospitality industry, tourism, culture, and art. You know, it's one of the most liberating ways in whichdashthere's no middleman. We've seen gender equality, because you've had women produce things that now can be around the world. I hope that our focus on health, and focusing on therapies and treatments and taking that seriously what will happen so that we can still have that, because I think there's such a worry that we may be scaring people off from what has been traditionally three or four or five major lanes to becoming economically independent and entrepreneurial.

Dana Firas

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, but one of the things we can also, as we build up really utilize technology, I think one of the most important things that has come out of all of this, actually, I think we've had two very important lessons. One is that we actually have today much more than ever before, the means with which to communicate, to remain connected, even if we can't be so physically. And we have to utilize that to benefit people, even in remote areas. And I think that's been a very, very important lesson for many communities, and the idea that you can enter the cultural industries, which is a $1.3 trillion market and heavily weighed in for the benefit of developing countries, as opposed to developed countries. And so this is an opportunity to really ensure that we are well equipped to take advantage of that. And then the number two lesson, I think, is how important Culture and the Arts are in our life. You know, when we were in the midst of the pandemic and you saw people singing on their balconies, you had sort of Bocelli, with this incredible setting behind him, and the whole world tuning in to hear him sing. So there is something about our connection to our culture, to our heritage, to music, to the arts, that many people have realized is really critical to their emotional well-being. That appreciation for me has also been very important, and one that we must not forget, as our very rapid pace of life picks up again.

Alan Fleischmann

Yeah, I think that's extraordinarily important. I think John F. Kennedy had that wisdom when he came into the presidency of the United States where he wanted to really create a real focus on culture, and music, and the arts. Really it was Jackie Kennedy who wanted to. He just did it. But he had a wonderful love of history and a love of literature. And she had a wonderful love of music and art. I think that's become often overlooked as a soft priority, rather than a hard priority, and reality policy, politics, people, humanity. And what we remember in history is always tied to the arts, music, and writing, and the physical. So it is something that we have to somehow fight, which you're fighting for every day, that this is not seen as a soft priority, but a hard one and one that needs to be a high priority, which is really, really important. Also, I think, the awareness that we can create. I'm curious when I talked to you last, I had this idea in my head, I'm going to pursue it, that you would be the perfect ambassador, in addition to what you do every day with your other day jobs, to really help link the east to the west of the world as the north and the south of the world. As we're thinking about what normal could be in this post-pandemic, one of the things I hope will be the vulnerability that we all went through together, that we need leadership to remind us that it's one globe. And it's one humanity, and that here, this pandemic has shown us that something that affects you in one corner of the world could affect me in the other. And everybody was vulnerable. It doesn't matter where you are from a political point of view, or socio-economic point of view, what your gender is, what your religion is, how old you are. You are very vulnerable. And I hope that vulnerability will be able to expose what unites us and what and bring about a new age of respect. I know that's something you care deeply about. And this idea of exposing the best of the west to the east, the best of the North, the South, the best of the East, to the west, to the best of the South to the north. And I'd love to hear your thinking about that a little bit. Because it very much inspires me, as I try to think what do we want to be not only lessons learned but action taken after we get out of this pandemic?

Dana Firas 

You know, I'm going to circle back a little bit to one of your earlier questions, which ties with this beautifully. Which is this: what was it about the United States that sort of left a mark on you, and one of the most important things was this incredible appreciation for the importance of philanthropy and benefactors of culture and of the arts. And I found that to be something that existed in the United States much more than anywhere else in the world. And you had these incredibly successful business people in the history of the US who ended up putting a lot of their wealth in art and in foundations that supported the arts. Living in DC, one of the things that struck me more than anything else is the opportunity to walk through the incredible buildings of the Smithsonian, for free. And it's where I spent so much of my time with my children while we were in the US. From one museum to another. And this sense that this culture, these institutions of culture, these institutions of heritage, need to be accessible to everyone and are open to everyone and are truly beacons. And this ties beautifully to your question now, which is, as somebody who came from Jordan, going through these incredible examples of cultural appreciation, cultural support in the United States, opened my eyes, to so many things, and open my children's eyes to so many things. And I carried that with me. And as I work here in Jordan, I often think back to, but they did it that way at the Smithsonian. So that might be a model that we can adapt, and we can work with. And I think, as somebody who has a love for the United States, and feels a very strong affinity to the US and the values of the US, and an incredible love for Jordan, I feel that there is this synergy and this learning process that benefits both sides as I do my own work. And part of the thing about cultural heritage, and it's important for me is tied directly to identity. How do we define identity? Who are we? What is important to us? Who do we want to be? Who are we aspiring to be? Those questions have their answers rooted in cultural heritage. And if we want to build a world that comes together, we have to look at how we define identity. And do we build an inclusive sense of identity that embraces diversity and differences, or do we not? And I think part of the work that I do, that I'm very passionate about is this concept that as we all share values that we have inherited over thousands of years that we find personified in these great individuals from our history and in the monuments that we see every day all around us. These are shared human values that we all believe in, that we all aspire to. And these are the building blocks of our identities. So as we look at who are we, and who do we want to be, almost inevitably, the answers to those questions are shared, will be the same whether you ask somebody in the north and the south and the east or in the West. And basic human aspirations are truly universal, in so many ways, and we see that we see that in the way people before us dealt with the monuments, with their civilizations, with relationships with each other. Spirituality, with how they believe and what they believe in, and the evolution of these ideas, connections across civilizations from the beginning of history represent those very same ideals that we aspire to today. And so as we look at our identity, and we look at these questions, there have to be voices out there. We really must say that we've got to build on our cultural heritage, on our history, on the values that we all share as people to build an inclusive sense of identity, you respect who you are and your individuality. But that doesn't mean that you don't respect the other, whoever that other is. And in a world that is so divided today, in so many ways, I feel as if my voice has to be louder than ever for this message to resonate in as wide a circle as I can make it resonate. Because at the end of the day, at a very basic level, human values are universal and shared by all. And I think this is a message that's really important today.

Alan Fleischmann

I love that you were talking about celebrating your individual, honor diversity, but focus on the inclusivity. And I think that's what's missing is that we want people to feel distinct and unique individuals, we want our cultural backgrounds to be respected. But you want everyone to act in an inclusive way, built on that respect. And I think that's something that we don't hear enough of, obviously. And as we were speaking, I just think it's a global position on those that needs to be created. That's even different than UNESCO that really talks about these. Because what you're really saying is to honor and respect culture and see it through the eyes of its history, you really have to articulate this in a way that does talk about inclusivity. Distinct, certainly, individually distinct, absolutely. But how do we then create a culture of respect, empathy, understanding, and openness to learn about other people's history? Because you don't want just the elite to go see the sights. You want the world to see each other sites? And I wonder whether technology is an answer. So is there a position out there? And can we expose to those who can't get on a plane? Can we do more of these? I don't know. This is a radio show. But I get to see you on Zoom. I imagine if you could show me, I would be exposed to things that I wouldn't normally.

Dana Firas

Yeah. Well, probably not as far as you're taking. And I think there is a big vacuum there that can be filled. I mean, one of the things that has happened as a result of the pandemic has been that UNESCO has invested in helping many sites do virtual presentations of sites and virtual visits, which has enabled people to see what many of these sites and what was not available to them if you did not physically visit. And I think museums have also taken the lead in that as well. And many of the collections that were not available to so many who could not make the trip and visit are now available online for all to see. But I agree with you that to take that a step further and to say beyond what is available, but how do you make those connections? How do you take people to various sites, to various places, and to really allow them to see it through the eyes of a person who they can relate to? And this has been one of my personal dreams is to actually really do some sort of show where even the most remote, the most smallest little jewels out there throughout the world and what they represent to all of us, can be showcased in some sort of show to enable people to really understand how beautiful these sites are and what they represent. And how the people that live around these sites, how they have evolved as a result of being so close to these sites and what it all means and how we can relate to them and see them in a different light, and how similar they are to us in so many ways. And I think there is really an opportunity to do something like that today. And technology's incredible. I mean, the fact that you can be in anybody's home, anywhere in the world today, it is just mind-boggling. And that kind of a platform to take advantage of it, to really bring home this message, I think would be an incredible thing.

Alan Fleischmann

And can you imagine, obviously, people are going to travel, we're going to want people to travel. But can you imagine that we could create something on I mean, not a voyager show, not a travel show, but a cultural heritage show that we both could listen, learn and be inspired, break down barriers, create inclusivity. As you're talking, I can imagine that.

Dana Firas

Oh, I can see it completely. It's taken complete shape in my head, I just need to implement something.

Alan Fleischmann 

Qe have to make this or, or a big priority, because again, it goes back to the idea that it's not soft, it's hard. And if we really want to create a global society that respects individuality, that respects distinct diversity, but is all about inclusivity and opportunity, then we have to know from where we come and respect one another's heritage and backgrounds. And this is a way to do it in a way that would have meaning. So one last question for you. Travel obviously has changed quite a bit for you and for me and for all of us, is there one place you'd like to go in the world, as soon as you're able?

Dana Firas

Not one place, actually. One continent, I think if I can, I haven't done a real visit to Africa. So that would be would be a place where I would actually like to really explore the sights of Africa. And the history of this continent, and at the end of the day, it's where all of us came from. And so to build the story of humanity right from the very start, would be where I what I'd like to do actually, as soon as we're able to get out and to go to my daughter's graduation in the United States, hopefully in June.

Alan Fleischmann

Hopefully, it'll be a person in June. She's in school, right?

Dana Firas

She's back in school. She's back in school and hopefully, things will settle down enough to enable us to get to the US and see you guys as well.

Alan Fleischmann 

I would love to see you and I'll tell you I am very big on this idea that I believe in the pharmaceutical companies that are fighting for these vaccines. Now, in a way, we saw them as drug companies before the pandemic. Now they are, they are seen as science, we need science to win. We also need to know that there are therapeutics out there so that we can make sure that they're accessible to all people. So that as you were describing, that those who are working near these heritage sites that have been dependent on the hospitality and tourism industries don't get sidelined again in such a dramatic and painful way. And then we got to figure out a way that we can get people to travel to one another, whether it's in person or whether it's through the show. We need people to get out there because we're living in a very tender time where it's easier to divide us than to unite us. And if there's one thing that your work has shown me and showed so many of us is that there's an enormous opportunity if we understand with great respect, the beauty and the essential qualities and values of our pasts. And if we can respect one another, we can break down those barriers. So I am grateful for your work. We're going to want to have you back on this show, we're going to want to help you too. And I'm going to urge listeners who want to be helpful to you to contact us because I'd like to find ways in which we can create a bit of a movement around this work so that people understand the hardcore need that we have for you as an advocate, for cultural heritage, for you as an advocate for understanding the importance of our sites, not only in Jordan but all over the world. And that we've got to do things, especially as we're fighting the environmental challenges that we're fighting at the same time. So thank you.

Dana Firas

Thank you very much.

Alan Fleishmann

Thank you for joining me.

Dana Firas

This has been a great opportunity for me to speak with you and to see you, but also to speak more widely to all of your listeners. And it would be wonderful if we could see how to engage more and what we can do to get this message across in more of an impactful way than I was able to do so far. So thank you for this opportunity.

Alan Fleischmann

Thank you The trajectory is good, I think we are going to mobilize and use his time during this sheltering in place period that we're all dealing with around the world to plan for what we imagine that new normal should look like. And our new normal should not look like the past. It should look like the future as we take the past with us. And I think that's what you're fighting for. And that's what we will fight with you. So thank you. You've been listening to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM. I'm your host, Alan Fleischman. And we've had this incredible hour with Princess Dana Ross of Jordan, as we've been talking about cultural heritage, the sites in which she's been passionate about both in her home of Jordan, but frankly, through her work as a UN ambassador, UNESCO ambassador and her work around the world, we got to take on this fight with you. It's an honor to be with you and I look forward to working with you as we make this happen around the world. Thank you.