Darren Walker
President of the Ford Foundation
“I believe that for leaders to succeed and achieve and accomplish great things, we're going to have to rewrite the playbook, we're going to have to realize that many of the approaches and tools and theories that undergirded our work in the BC world will not be sufficient in the PC World. I think there is going to be a demand for more transparency, a demand for more equity, and fairness. And so, as a leader, we will be called to, I believe, a moral high ground.”
Summary
In this episode of Leadership Matters, Alan and his good friend Darren Walker discuss what makes someone a successful leader, including resilience, the ability to motivate and mobilize, and optimism.
They discuss how Darren grew up in hardship, being born to a single mother at a charity hospital in rural Louisiana, before moving to East Texas, where he lived on a dirt road in a shotgun shack house.
Darren found a passion for reading and knowledge after being enrolled in the government program Head Start, leading him to attend law school in Austin, Texas before moving to New York, where his career took him on what he describes as a “great journey.” Darren’s work moved him from Wall Street to Harlem, and finally to the Ford Foundation, where he was appointed as President in 2013. Darren emphasizes the role of leaders in fighting for social justice, including within capitalism and the criminal justice system.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
Ford Foundation – Click here to learn more.
Head Start – Click here to learn more.
Rikers Island – Click here to learn more.
5 Percent Rule – Click here to learn more.
Pell Grants – Click here to learn more.
Guest Bio
Darren Walker is president of the Ford Foundation, a $14 billion international social justice philanthropy. Under his leadership, the Ford Foundation became the first non-profit in US history to issue a $1 billion designated social bond in US capital markets for proceeds to strengthen and stabilize non-profit organizations in the wake of COVID-19.
Before joining Ford, Darren was vice president at Rockefeller Foundation, overseeing global and domestic programs. In the 1990s, he was COO of the Abyssinian Development Corporation, Harlem’s largest community development organization.
Darren co-chairs New York City’s Mayoral Advisory Commission on City Art, Monuments, and Markers, and has served on the Independent Commission on New York City Criminal Justice and Incarceration Reform and the UN International Labour Organization Global Commission on the Future of Work. He co-founded both the US Impact Investing Alliance and the Presidents’ Council on Disability Inclusion in Philanthropy and is a founding member of the Board Diversity Action Alliance.
He serves on many boards, including Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts, the National Gallery of Art, Carnegie Hall, the High Line, the Committee to Protect Journalists, and the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History & Culture. Educated exclusively in public schools, Darren was a member of the first Head Start class in 1965 and received BA, BS, and JD degrees from the University of Texas at Austin.
Follow Darren on LinkedIn or Twitter @darrenwalker.
Clips from This Episode
Episode Transcription
Alan Fleischmann
You are listening to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM Radio. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. I'm here with Darren Walker, my good friend who is the President of the Ford Foundation. And we're talking not only about leadership, we're talking about leadership during this pandemic, something that none of us have seen in our lifetimes. And even with all of our imagination, none of us would have imagined that he would be in his place in New York, I'd be in mine in Washington, and that we would be having this conversation today. But I wanted to have Darren on the show for a while, because Darren, you speak about leadership, you highlight leadership, and you represent the best of leadership. And part of that is that you are a moral compass for many of us, as we try to construct our lives, both personally and professionally. So I'm hoping today, we can talk a little bit about these unprecedented times. I'm also hoping today that we can talk to you about your vision for as we go through these times, and deal with and focus on the most vulnerable populations, the most vulnerable communities, among us, but also give us a little bit of your inspiration, because you've come from a life that can make you very empathetic, but more importantly, very actionable about helping others. So first of all, I want to welcome you on Leadership Matters. And thank you for joining us.
Darren Walker
Thank you for having me, Alan.
Alan Fleischmann
Well, I'm glad to have you, that's the best part. So let's let's start if you can, maybe which it would be kind of odd of us on this day, not to talk about what we're seeing here. But you know, you've been in charge of, you know, not only raising funds, you've been charged of distributing funds at a pretty amazing level at the Ford Foundation. Not only, you know, for other crisis, but certainly for this one. And I'd love you to share just for a moment how you're handling this pandemic, both as a CEO yourself, but also as someone who is a returning collaborator in internationally making sure that resources get to the right people. So tell us a little bit about that. And then we'll get into a little bit about the Darren Walker story, which is your personal story, which you don't tell enough. I'm gonna get into that today, too.
Darren Walker
Well, we are at a moment of crisis, a moment that, as you say, Alan, none of us could have predicted, and certainly none of us would want. And the challenge for leaders today is to be resilient, to have a moral compass that informs and guides your decision making, and to be durable. Because this is a marathon and not a sprint. And so let me start with the idea of resilience. Because I think resilience is all about the capacity to absorb shocks. And every leader experiences shocks, the kinds of things that come from left field that we didn't anticipate, couldn't anticipate, but must deal with. And for me, that resilience comes from the wisdom of having experienced difficulty and challenges in the past, obviously, technical understanding of your business, and, importantly, the support of your key stakeholders. And it's important that during this time, the ability to motivate and mobilize those key stakeholders, your employees, and in the Ford Foundation's case, the nonprofit community, and the many stakeholders who are interested in the organization and who feel some affinity for it. How do we ensure that those communities are mobilized, are inspired, feel hopeful, because so much about resilience is even in the face of darkness, to be able to see light. And even here, sitting in an apartment in the middle of Manhattan, the epicenter of the epicenter, where it can be grim on any given day, I still see light.
Alan Fleischmann
Tell us a little bit about that light that you see is that because you're seeing, you know, people rallying a little bit and coming together, you know, are there heroes in our midst? People who are stepping up and stepping out. Or is it because you're seeing community come together, which is also about heroes? Or is that what you're saying?
Darren Walker
Well, I am seeing, finally, a recognition of who are the essential workers in our economy, and a recognition that these people are the heroes and sheroes, we need. That they are the people who are often overlooked, marginalized, and underappreciated. And I'm talking about the people who work at the counters, in the grocery stores, and the pharmacies. The people who deliver our food, the restaurant workers, and importantly, the first responders and the people in our healthcare system and at hospitals, especially, which are really places most of us hope to avoid. And so we don't have enough experience and didn't have enough appreciation for all of these people. And all of these categories of workers, who are essential. Without them, whether we had a pandemic or not, they are essential. And my hope is that in the post pandemic world, we realize, unlike in the before Coronavirus world, I see the world now as BC and PC. And in the PC World, I hope we realize how undervalued, underpaid, underappreciated, under-resourced, so many of these workers and their fields and their institutions are.
Alan Fleischmann
That's actually extraordinary. And I think this idea that you just struck, and talked about essential workers, it's such a profound thought. I mean, it's about respect. And then, and honestly, until this pandemic, people refer to the same people as unskilled workers. And now we're realizing how skilled they were, how essential they are, and how much we need to make sure that we're taking care of them going forward. I hope, I hope that that respect continues, and actually doesn't just continue in words, and as you suggest, but actually with action. Because we can't have a community we can't have a society without them. And they're the most vulnerable. Right? And clearly, you're saying it, every block you probably walk on in New York right now is that there, there's a lot of empty restaurants, shops, you know, just everywhere you go, they're empty, waiting for us to be able to bring people back, but honestly, they can't afford the rent, or they can't afford not to be at work.
Darren Walker
Correct.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah. You know, you grew up, I mean you've seen—I love this focus is why Darren, you're so important in what you do, because you see the light, when others see darkness. And you know, you can sit around and we can sit in the dark. Or we can strive for light, and that—what you said earlier is so much about how you are. Can you tell us a little bit about your background a little bit. I know you were born in, you know, the segregated south, you came of age in the 1960s. And that, of course, was an era of massive social upheaval in this country. And, you know, the assassination of Dr. King, the assassination of Robert Kennedy. The assassination of President Kennedy. You know, how did those experiences and those events, you know, kind of fuel your drive. I know a little bit about your family background, I'd love you to share a little bit of what guided you, what inspired you, and how much of that actually is what you take to your daily leadership work, even today?
Darren Walker
Well, I do believe that my sense of resilience and optimism is the result of my life experience. Being born to a single mother in a charity hospital in rural Louisiana and growing up as a small boy in east Texas, I absolutely experienced poverty and probably was in a very hardship situation. But something changed that. First, in 1965 in rural Ames, Texas population 1200 in Liberty County, Texas, where my mother and my sister and I lived on a dirt road and shotgun shack house, a woman appeared in the front yard and she told my mother about a new program that was starting that summer. And the program was called Headstart. And the government was enrolling promising boys and girls who fit the description and they were really looking for low income boys and girls in rural areas and in urban communities. And so I fit the description, and my mother was happy to get me out of the house for four hours a day, all summer. And that was really the beginning of my thirst for knowledge and my love of reading. And I was very lucky to attend public schools in Texas. In fact, I proudly say that I have never attended a day of private school in my life. And I was very fortunate. And after law school in Austin, Texas, I came to New York, and just had a great journey in New York that took me from Wall Street, to Harlem, where I ran a nonprofit to the Rockefeller Foundation and ultimately to Ford. So it's been a magical journey in some ways. I feel enormously fortunate and blessed. I certainly know that as a boy, I experienced gross racism. But I experienced enormous grace and generosity from people as well, people who truly wanted me to succeed and wanted the dreams that I had to be realized. And those people, I am enormously, eternally grateful to. They, along with the public investments, helped to make my journey possible.
Alan Fleischmann
You know, that to me is so powerful Darren. You know, I know a huge part of your life—and I don't know if you know, but a lot of people do know, is how many people consider you to be a mentor, you know, and how many people are grateful when you join their boards, or when you invest in someone, you invest with them, not only with dollars, you invest with them with your personal, you know, advice and your thoughtfulness and you're sometimes difficult counsel, where you're going to tell people that they need to aspire even bigger and greater than they necessarily always want to hear. But I'd love you to talk about for a moment before we get to you as a mentor, because I think that's a huge part of your leadership. Tell us a little bit more about you being a mentee. Because it sounds like you certainly you were a recipient of Headstart at the very beginning, you were a recipient of Pell Grants, obviously, at the beginning. You took you took full advantage of these opportunities, which says so much about you and your family to identify it as a priority. But you know, besides that, you must have had those people along the way who said this guy's special, believe you're special and kind of pushed you and I wonder whether that's had a big influence on you and you as a mentor?
Darren Walker
Absolutely. Alan, I had champions. I have had champions since I was the homeroom representative in my junior high school class in sixth grade. I have understood that there will be people who will share their wisdom, share their experience, share their resources in some cases, and who will have your back and people who take you under their wings. I was very lucky because I came to understand at an early age, because I did not have, within my family, the resources or networks or the professional role models to guide me. I had an enormously powerful, impactful role model in my mother, my grandfather, who were not sophisticated people, but who possess tremendous wisdom. That while it might be articulated in a southern vernacular kind of a way, was Shakespearean in the power of the message that was being delivered. So those champions always looked out for me, and I understood why it was important to cultivate champions, and to build a network of champions, and to manage one's reputation so that those champions views of you could be validated by others. And in the process, you grow the community of champions, because ultimately, what you want is for your champions to feel vested in your success, for them to own your success, and to feel that they have contributed to your success. And I always have given my champions credit for my success, because I can't tell you the number of times on my journey, when there has not been an intervention, sometimes, secretly, I didn't even know, by someone who championed me to advance my career, to ensure I was recognized with some reward or award in college or all sorts of things. And so I've just been very lucky in that way. And those champions have been every color, every sexual orientation, it's, as I said, it's certainly true that I've met—and I experienced a lot of white racism, racism directed at me because of my color, by white people. But I also experienced remarkable generosity, and championing me by white people who wanted to make sure and who believed in my—the possibility of my, my dreams and my aspirations, and they invested in those dreams and aspirations.
Alan Fleischmann
This is Alan Fleischman, you're listening to leadership matters. I'm your host, I'm Sirius XM radio, and I'm here with my good friend Darren Walker, who's the president of the Ford Foundation. That's actually very powerful. What you were just discussing with us, you know, the responsibility that you must have felt also and you feel toward your mentors, I imagine where they did invest in you, they have invested in you, knowing you, you know, as I do, I know that that meant that you felt you had to win, and how to succeed. So there had to be some additional responsibility and pressure on you. Because it is something where people are going to say, we're going to help this young man succeed, or we're going to recommend him to that opportunity. Because you do excel, and you should lead, but there must have been a part of you that also felt you needed to show them that win, that success?
Darren Walker
Well, absolutely, and I always shared in those successes and even shared in the announcement of whatever success, because I would know, you know, when I received an award at graduation, or I received recognition for some leadership position I held. The first people I would share this with were my champions, because they would be enormously proud of me. And they would feel that their investment in me was actually paying off, was actually worth their time, and that I actually took their advice to heart. And again, these patterns in my life have repeated over and over again. Most recently, when I was being considered for the presidency of the Ford Foundation, those champions once again, came to support me. And in fact, I am certain that without those champions, I wouldn't be president of the Ford Foundation today.
Alan Fleischmann
That's beautiful. Yeah, let's talk about that. When you became the president of Ford Foundation. I remember the way the Ford Foundation, building looked. And I know it's all changed since but I remember the old place where it was the way the building looked. I remember coming in and looking at the art, for example, which set a tone. And I remember coming to visit you in your office. And I remember seeing how different the place looked. You know, and I would say that's even had better iteration since you've moved on and I think you have a new facility, right? Or I even think, you re-did it. But the—you change the art, which changed the tone, which changed the view and the expectation of what you would think Ford Foundation was trying to do in a way that, frankly, I'm sure has as much to do with what you wanted to say, internally, as you wanted to say to me and others who are coming in from the outside. I'm curious what that was—how deliberate was that? And what did it mean to you, because you have definitely showcased an extraordinary amount of artists who represented very different fields than what the Ford Foundation I think showed before.
Darren Walker
Well, the Ford Foundation building reflected the era in which it was built, which was the mid 1960s, A very modern, Mad Man, kind of piece of architecture, very hierarchical, executive dining room, a 5000 square foot, number of suites for the president with very, very posh setting. And I think that for 1965, that may have been appropriate, but for 2013 when I became president, was not. Furthermore, the art also reflected the era. So we had lovely art by European artists, Picasso, Chagall, Schiele, quite impressive. No American artists and no artists of color, or women, with one exception, Sheila Hicks. And so I felt that as we reimagine the building in alignment with our new strategy and new mission, and really a new orientation, we needed to have that orientation around social justice reflected in our art collection. And so the trustees accepted my recommendation to sell the European art, and in its place to take the proceeds and buy art that is consistent with our our social justice mission. And what that has meant is the purchase of about 300 works of art by primarily artists of color and women. And we have just remarkable artists represented. Artists of color women, queer artists, artists from the native communities. And artists, of course, from Africa and Latin America, South Asia, China, the places in the world where the Ford Foundation has offices. And so it is a very diverse collection. But I must tell you, Alan, that the piece I'm most proud of is the first piece we purchased, which is an eight foot tall, Kehinde Wiley of Wanda Crichlow, an amazing woman who he has represented as a European princess. And it's a remarkable, remarkable picture. But of course, we couldn't afford a Kehinde Wiley today because shortly after our acquisition, the White House announced that he was the official portrait—that he had been commissioned to take—how to paint President Obama's official presidential portrait for the National Portrait Gallery. And, of course, today, it's impossible to buy a Kehinde Wiley because he's so much in demand, but we love the piece. It's in our lobby, and it does set a tone when you have artists like to Kehinde Wiley, Carrie Mae Weems, Kara Walker. I could go on and on about the artists, but it's a very different feel. It feels vibrant, it feels aligned with mission, it feels diverse. And, like all good art, it challenges you to think. In our case, hopefully it challenges you to think about issues of justice and equity and fairness. in society.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. And I love the fact that, you know, it kind of correlates perfectly when, with your mission of focusing on inequality in our society, which was a, which was a renewed new vision for the foundation when you came in, you show it through every way, I mean, you actually have to show it from the inside out, as well as, like people like me who are coming in, because I knew your mission just by walking in. But it was also a celebration of light, like you were saying earlier, because the best way to show that light is through artists, and you were able to kind of lead us through what you chose. Was it fun to do, too, by the way?
Darren Walker
It was great fun to do. And it was one of those occasions when I was a very undemocratic boss, because the original idea was that there would be a committee of staff who would choose the art, and I didn't believe that a committee process would yield the strongest collection. So I overruled. Committee of one is, I think, ultimately worked out.
Alan Fleischmann
This committee, a committee of one really did win. You know, I want to talk a little bit about philanthropy. But before I do, I want to mention something else that I'd love to get your point of view on it. I mean, when I think of you Darren, and why you are the head of the Ford Foundation, you're also the board of Pepsi, I know and you are on several boards, and I know Carnegie Hall is one of them, we get to sit on together.
Darren Walker
And indeed I look forward to seeing you always there.
Alan Fleischmann
You're the best. And but I what I love is actually, you take seriously about the investments that the Ford Foundation makes as well. And you understand the value not only from a philanthropic side, but the weight of responsibility that you have on the investor side. So I see you not reall—how when you think of private sector, public sector, civil society, I see you as one of those few CEOs and leaders who really does intersect all three. That you're not afraid to have conversations in Washington that are bipartisan, you're not afraid to have conversations globally in capitals that are nonpartisan, you know, you're not afraid you insist on it. And that you actually have conversations with other CEOs at the table, where they really are trying to figure out how they manage their capital, which is ultimately what we do as capitalists or part of capitalism, this whole idea of stakeholder capitalism, and this idea of making sure that we care about more than just a shareholder, how much time do you spend on that? And how much is your leadership influencing that? And I know the answer, but I want to hear you say it.
Darren Walker
Well, I don't think my leadership is influencing it at all. I think that there are some very, I believe, visionary CEOs, many of them were involved in the drafting of the statement by the Business Roundtable on stakeholder capitalism, and an effort to move away from the Milton Friedman idea of shareholder capitalism as the only kind of capitalism. I think—I think it is very important that we capitalists understand that the kind of capitalism we're generating right now isn't working for most people. The kind of capitalism we're generating now is not generating shared prosperity. It is not providing the kinds of ladders for social and economic mobility, for middle class stability. And for people like you and me, Alan, who are in the 1%. These last years, have been great. Fed policy, tax policy, and other policy have had a tremendous impact on the growth of our wealth and our assets while those same policies undermined wealth creation and asset accumulation for millions of other Americans. And I think we who have privileged, who have been privileged have to think about this. I believe my friend Michael Sandel at Harvard is writing a book called the Tyranny of Merit. And he writes about how we believe that America is a meritocracy. And especially we believe it if we are successful in America. But that idea of meritocracy has some deleterious effects. And one of those effects is sort of smugness by those of us who have made it quote unquote, and particularly those of us who come from humble beginnings, because we like to frame our journey and a kind of a Horatio Alger romanticized only in America framework. And while that may all be true, it is also true that we can become less empathetic and less willing to believe that people who aren't successful are somehow deserving of their state. And that their status is a function of bad choices and of private behavior that got them there. And while that is, in part true in many cases, in many cases, it's not true. I know this from my own trajectory, I mean, my mother left that small, racist, rural town in Louisiana, where we lived and brought me to Texas. But I left behind my cousins. And a majority of my cousins who I left behind in that town, where I would have grown up, ended up in the criminal justice system, in the jail or in a penitentiary. And I can see my trajectory being just like their trajectory, because I am no smarter, no more ambitious, no more educatable than they are. But they are in Angola prison. And I'm in an apartment on Park Avenue. And I refuse to believe that the reason I sit here is because I'm so much more smarter and talented than they are.
Alan Fleischmann
Wow. And I guess, how much of your time how much of your initiatives, for example, at the Ford Foundation devoted to try to change that horrible paradigm.
Darren Walker
We have a major program on ending mass incarceration in America that seeks to elevate the crisis in our prison, jail, justice system. America is the most incarcerated nation in the world. We have over 2.3 million people in jails and prisons in this country, and another 4.5 million ensnared in the criminal justice system in some way. On parole, in pre-adjudication. In some way, they are connected to that system. And of course, most of these people are brown and black and poor white people. And this system was designed. It was intentionally constructed over years, but with the core focus of putting in cages, people who have always been marginalized in American society, and people are surprised sometimes including my friend Agnes Gunn, when they learn that the 13th amendment did indeed free the slaves, but there was a clause in the 13th amendment. inserted, that said that it is legal to enslave people who have been committed of a crime. And so what that constitutional amendment did was to say, if someone has been committed of a crime and is incarcerated, we can literally treat them like a slave. I mean, they can be forced to work eight-hour days, and be paid nothing. They can be forced, and which happens in our prisons. Today, most humane prisons will pay a dime, or 15 cents an hour. But of course, prisoners are also charged for services when they are in prison, especially as we have turned our public system into a private prison system, where we have publicly traded companies constructing, owning and managing prisons on behalf of the government. And so everything from vending machines to telephone calls are a profit center. And it's why it costs more money to make a call from upstate New York, same thing, to Manhattan than it does for me from Manhattan to call Beijing. And so we have a criminal justice system that is designed to get us what we've got. It is no surprise to any of us who watch this closely and who have studied the brilliant Michelle Alexander, Bryan Stevenson, so many more people I could mention, who have helped to change the narrative on.
Alan Fleischmann
Van Jones, whom you're friends with as well.
Darren Walker
Van has done an amazing job of raising this issue and working very effectively with the Trump administration on changing federal policy.
Alan Fleischmann
You know, I think that it's a huge issue. I mean, there's been some progress, but the urgency is only being seen even more right now. With the Coronavirus, you know, who is the most vulnerable, where among the most vulnerable are the most vulnerable. And it's right in our prison systems. And we're seeing how individuals who really shouldn't be behind bars, their life is threatened right now. And in a way that frankly, we need justice to get them out and get them care so they're not victims of this virus.
Darren Walker
Well, in fact, we've had people die a couple of weeks ago in Rikers Island, an inmate who had a parole violation was then brought to Rikers because of the parole violation. And he became infected, and a few days later died. So he was at Rikers for a parole violation, a technical violation that could have been negotiated without rendering him to a death sentence, a death sentence. I mean, so this is deeply troubling. And I think there are states like Illinois and Colorado, California, where governors are taking action to release elderly people, release people who are within six months of their release date. And in doing so, making it possible for these people to not be so vulnerable, but the group who is most vulnerable are actually the staff, the guards and the many, many staff in this large prison industry, who are themselves becoming infected at very high rates and they don't live on the prison campus. They are in communities with their families, going to the Walmart or to Stop and Shop or to fill their tank up with gas and in the process, spreading the virus. So I think there are a lot of reasons why we should be looking at this issue more seriously.
Alan Fleischmann
That's right. You're listening to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM. I'm your host, Alan Fleischman. And we're here with Darren Walker, my friend who is the president of the Ford Foundation. Darren, in the remaining few minutes, I'd love to hear a little bit about your advice that you would give to leaders as they are looking at what will be a bit of a new world order, I hope, you know, I mean, obviously, we want to have normalcy, whatever that means, in some ways, but we also don't want to go back when we can have a chance to go forward. And if there's a chance for us to seize this moment, to advance, to help others, I'd love to hear from you. Two things, one, what would be your advice to other leaders who have the opportunity to influence and then also the role of philanthropy because, you know, the Ford Foundation in itself—the Ford Foundation under Dan Walker's leadership is a bit of a convener and leader as well among other philanthropists, you bring people together, you chart new initiatives, others do join you. So when you're thinking of leaders, and you're thinking of philanthropists, what would you want to tell them right now? What would you want to advise them right now? And how can we actually together do something more together in a positive way?
Darren Walker
Well, I believe that for leaders to succeed and achieve and accomplish great things, we're going to have to rewrite the playbook, we're going to have to realize that many of the approaches and tools and theories that undergirded our work in the BC world will not be sufficient in the PC World, I think there is going to be a demand for more transparency, a demand for more equity, and fairness. And so as a leader, we will be called to, I believe, a moral high ground. And the question is, will we rise to that occasion, it's certainly something I think about a great deal. I think about it, because I'm in a sector, the nonprofit sector, where legions of organizations are teetering, because their revenue has dried up, their fundraisers have all been canceled, their seasons are canceled, their theaters are dark, their contract from the city or the state is in jeopardy because of budget cuts. And many of them are taking significant reductions in their salaries and compensation. And so I have to ask myself, I lead an organization that has lots of resources. I don't need to, from the standpoint of resources, take a reduction in my compensation. But maybe I should be thinking about that. Because there is something I believe, morally questionable, about leadership that is willing to be continue to have privilege compounded while others are barely holding on. And, so that is but just one example, but it's a manifestation of a larger point. And that is we are all going to be called to make choices and to think about things like equity. And what is fair, not just what I believe I'm entitled to, and that we consider the actions of our—our decisions, the implications of our decisions in the lives of people. Which, in a time of extraordinary upheaval, and unmooring that so many people feel that The decisions that leaders make can be life or death for some people. I think the question of philanthropy for me today is more important than ever. If there's ever a question about the need for philanthropy in this country, I don't think there is a question anymore in the PC World. However, in the PC World, I think more is going to be demanded of philanthropy. Now, philanthropy cannot take the place of government. But for many large foundations like the Ford Foundation and others who play by a conservative rule of paying out 5% of our investment income in a given year, and doing nothing more, I don't think it's defensible any longer, or certainly in this PC World, to hold on to those philosophies, those rationales for our policies. I don't believe that it's defensible when state and municipal budgets are being cut. For us to say, well, we are sorry, but we're only going to pay out 5% because that's what the IRS allows us to do and we don't have to do anymore. And we're in compliance with what the government expects of us. I think many people, including government, will and should expect more of philanthropy, and this PC World.
Alan Fleischmann
That's actually such an extraordinary comment, which would be completely revolutionary in the world of philanthropy. You're so right, that 5% rule is the minimum obligation or requirement that one has to, to give, and everyone lives by it, and holds on to all the other resources. But if we have a crisis, the whole idea of having an endowment is to have it for a rainy day. It's not to hoard it. I never thought of it until you just said that. But what an amazing moment would be right now, for philanthropic organizations to say we're not going to, you know, rely on the tradition of 5%. We're going to be there in partnership with our brothers and sisters, the private sector and in government and your're right, government has to step up so that we can actually get ourselves back.
Darren Walker
Indeed
Alan Fleischmann
It's a brilliant leadership moment. And I would urge you to do and actually because no one's doing it.
Darren Walker
You're right, that I'm going to have to work to generate the courage to get this done, Alan, but I will take your directive and your spirited encouragement.
Alan Fleischmann
Thank you. Thank you. Well, I will just say as we wrap up here, you've been listening to Leadership Matters, with my good friend, our guest, Darren Walker, the president of the Ford Foundation. This is your host, Alan Fleischman. I am so thrilled, I wish we had more time because you not only have walked the walk, you do everyday what you need to do, and you're very inventive. And you do create enormous opportunity through the Ford Foundation, but frankly, through your leadership and through your example. So as your friend, and as someone who does see you as someone who leads and follows the light that you share with others. I just want to say thank you, I'm grateful to you. And I'm so grateful that you spend some time with us. I know how busy you are. And I hope that those who are listening will join in with you and that we together can find that light and then find opportunity for others. So Darren, thank you for everything you do really, truly.
Darren Walker
Thank you, Alan. It's a great, great honor to be on your show.
