George Stephanopoulos
Chief Anchor, ABC News; Author, “The Situation Room: The Inside Story of Presidents in Crisis”
The most important thing for a leadership team is for that team to trust each other and to have each other's backs as the decision is being made – to have the feeling that while we may come into this with real disagreements, we're going to leave united behind the ultimate decision that our leader makes.
Summary
This week on Leadership Matters, Alan was joined by George Stephanopoulos, a seasoned journalist, political advisor, and communications professional who has been a fixture on national news broadcasts for nearly 30 years.
Over the course of their hour-long conversation, Alan explores George’s path from White House advisor to Chief Anchor of ABC News. Together, they dive into George’s early life, political career, transition into journalism, and the many lessons in leadership he’s learned along the way.
They also discuss George’s powerful new book, “The Situation Room: The Inside Story of Presidents in Crisis.” Released in May 2024, it’s a must-read analysis of the history-making crises that have defined twelve presidents.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
Guest Bio
George Stephanopoulos has conducted interviews with a wide range of subjects including world leaders such as Presidents Joe Biden, Donald Trump and Barack Obama, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and Russian President Vladimir Putin. He has interviewed celebrities, politicians and business leaders including George Clooney, Rep. Nancy Pelosi, Billy Porter, Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg, former FBI Director James Comey and more. Stephanopoulos has led the network’s coverage of four presidential elections and he moderated live town hall events with former President Donald Trump in 2016 and 2020 and then-presidential candidate Joe Biden in 2020.
For more than two decades his range and expertise have played a pivotal role at the network, garnering three Emmys, a DuPont, three Murrows and two Cronkite Awards.
Stephanopoulos joined ABC News in 1997 as an analyst for “This Week.” Prior to joining ABC News, he served in the Clinton administration as the senior advisor to the president for policy and strategy. He is the author of “All Too Human,” a New York Times bestseller, and “The Situation Room: The Inside Story of Presidents in Crisis.”
Stephanopoulos received his master’s degree in theology from Balliol College, Oxford University, England, where he studied as a Rhodes Scholar. He holds a bachelor of arts degree from Columbia University and graduated summa cum laude in political science.
Stephanopoulos and his wife, Alexandra Wentworth, have two daughters, Elliott and Harper.
Transcript
Alan Fleischmann
I'm joined today by a seasoned journalist, political adviser, communications professional, and anchor who has been a fixture on national news broadcasts for nearly 30 years. George Stephanopoulos is the chief anchor of ABC News, and the anchor of both “Good Morning America” and “This Week with George Stephanopoulos.” Every day, millions of Americans turn to George for his expert analysis of current events, political developments around the world, and just to know what's going on in our country, and obviously globally.
A two time Emmy Award winner, George leads ABC’s coverage of all breaking news and international crises, and has interviewed dozens of presidents, prime ministers, billionaires, and celebrities. Before joining ABC News, George made a name for himself as a sharp communications expert, strategic adviser, and leader in Bill Clinton’s first presidential campaign. And then subsequently in the White House, in his administration. Last month, George published his second book, The Situation Room: The Inside Story of Presidents in Crisis. It's a powerful, must-read analysis of the history-making crises that have defined 12 presidents.
George is a very dear friend of mine, and I'm excited to have him on the show. I wanted him on for a long time. We're going to discuss his fascinating career, his new book, and then many lessons in leadership that he has learned along the way, both as a leader himself as an advisor to them as well, and a witness to leaders I would add. George, welcome to “Leadership Matters.” It is such a pleasure to have you on. I'm glad we finally get to do this.
George Stephanopoulos
Thank you. Me too.
Alan Fleischmann
we're gonna have some fun today. And I know already, I'm gonna say to our listeners already, we're gonna want another hour with you. It's never going to be enough. But we're going to dive in and get as much as we can in here. Let's start a little bit from your early life George, and your upbringing, you moved around quite a bit growing up, spent a lot of time in Massachusetts, New York and then Ohio. What was life like around the Stephanopoulos home and in the many communities that you grew up in? Because I would argue they probably were very different.
George Stephanopoulos
Well, my father, I come from a family of priests. My father, grandfather, uncle, Godfather, cousins, god brothers are all Greek Orthodox priests, which is one of the reasons we moved so often.
I was born in Fall River, Massachusetts, I left there when I was five, I actually started kindergarten in the suburbs of New York. And we spent eight years there. Basically, my father, when we were growing up, was transferred every eight years then I did kindergarten to eighth grade in New York, and Rye, New York was actually Purchase, New York, and I was very lucky. I know that you always look back at your life. And you think about what you what you what your what was what was most fortunate about it. One of the lucky things was even though we moved fairly often, I always moved at exactly the right breakpoints. Like we moved into New York, when I went into kindergarten, I went to a great little school called the purchase school, public school, from kindergarten to eighth grade, only 200 kids from kindergarten to eighth grade, graduated eighth grade, and we moved to Cleveland, where I went to high school, and my father stayed there through high school, and college. And then when I finished college in New York, my parents actually moved to New York. And my dad was the dean of the Cathedral in New York City for 25 years in New York, as well.
So I was very lucky whenever we moved, but you know, the church was really the center of our life growing up in the Greek church that even the priest's wife has a name, it's called Presley, Tara. So everything is centered around the life and the rhythms and the calendar of the church. So I had that on the one hand, and then I had actually a regular, fairly normal, American, suburban boyhood, for the rest of my life. So I feel very lucky for that.
Alan Fleischmann
And you have your brother – two brothers?
George Stephanopoulos
And two sisters. Yes. Yeah.
Alan Fleischmann
Your mom, who I knew, was a force of nature herself and your father's standards for being a priest. I think if your mother as being a force, a force of good, but a force of nature as well.
George Stephanopoulos
She was also a communications professional, I think that's how you guys first met. Right?
Alan Fleischmann
Exactly. And I have great I have great memories of early in my career and early my life of actually engaging with your mom. And I would say there are people who are passive, and their people are passive aggressive, or they're aggressive. Your mother could be a great listener, but she was also a great advocate if she believed in something. She leaned in and leaned in hard.
George Stephanopoulos
She knew how to get what she wanted. You know, she was a communications officer for the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. I assume you guys met during one of the trips of the patriarch or Archbishop or something. Exactly.
Alan Fleischmann
Exactly right.
George Stephanopoulos
What stage of your life where you in when you guys met?
Alan Fleischmann
It was early. Yeah, yeah. It was early in my career where I was actually involved in, I think it was actually was I think it was actually the foreign affairs committee. No, no. Yeah, yeah. And that she engaged with her because what she was doing was trying to bring people together at embassies and trying to make him multicultural.
George Stephanopoulos
I didn't know we shared that. Alan, my first job on Capitol Hill was for a congressman named Ed Feighan, and from Cleveland, Ohio, and his first assignment was to the foreign affairs committee. So I ended up doing a lot of work in my first couple of years on Capitol Hill with the House Foreign Affairs Committee for still one of the favorite jobs I ever add.
Alan Fleischmann
For me too. I was actually the commencement speaker during my graduation from college. The Commencement speaker was Dante Fascell. I spoke. Yeah. And I spoke, I spoke as the valedictorian that day and I sat next to him. And he looked at me and he said, You should work in my committee, you should work in behind him working for Lee Hamilton and others on the hill, but he ended up saying, You should work. And that was the first moment I thought that was something I should pursue in my life, because to him, it was amazing guy,
George Stephanopoulos
You are bringing me back to such a different time. Clement Zablocki was actually the chairman when my boss was there. And then Dante Fascell was the chairman. And of course, Lee Hamilton was such a pillar. Yeah, huge. But it makes me think, whenever I think about Capitol Hill, now I get a little bit sad. Because, you know, that was in the early 1980s. And even then, you know, it was starting to get quite partisan. Everyone worked together, really it was about legislating. So different.
Alan Fleischmann
And you fought and you fought hard, but you fought hard. And then you figured out compromise was part of the journey.
George Stephanopoulos
No, the idea was to get something done. Exactly.
Alan Fleischmann
You were not graded on what you didn't get done. You were graded, because you got something done. I think a lot of times, today, you're graded because you have to stop something, you stop progress, you stop people from working together.
George Stephanopoulos
Now, it used to be the hardest thing to learn. But the most important thing we were taught was, how to strike the right compromise. Yeah, or everybody got something. And that happens so rarely now. That's
Alan Fleischmann
And you're also great friendships were forged between people who had diametrically different points of view, different fate, different different, different constituencies. And yet today, if you tried to do that you would be ostracized.
George Stephanopoulos
I mean, later, you know, my second job on Capitol Hill was when he was the house majority leader. And I think about so much of that job was scheduling, working with, you know, one of the people I worked most closely with, was Billy Pitts, who was the floor man, just together. He was one for Bob, Michael, the Republican leader, and we actually work together. I don't think that happens at any level anymore.
Alan Fleischmann
No, that's right. That's right. And then think about that. I mean, would you say that the best experiences you've ever had are when you sat around a table with people who represented something very different, these uncommon tables, and then you knew that you couldn't leave before you came to some kind of consensus or some kind of agreement? And to bring that back, it doesn't exist. It does. So you made a point? You know, if you're rated by what you say on social media, whether you actually pass something or did something? Yeah. Yeah. Not not not not the way not the way it is.
I'm curious, because you were so exposed to the church. Are there lessons from your viewpoint to the church a little bit as a young kid. Which had to be hard because it wasn't like, the priest was someone you didn't know that well, or he was somebody else's father. The fact that it was your father had to be a little bit high pressure. But you learned at an early age that you had to be kind of out there in the community.
George Stephanopoulos
I think I think that's right, I think, you know, we, one of my duties is very young boy, even though probably from the age of seven on was to the altar, boys led the congregation reading the creed. And I remember, you know, in the Greek church, there's an icon screen where the priests in the altar boys are separated from the congregation. And before I would go out in front of the screen to read the Creed, my dad would always say loud and slow, loud and slow for reading it loud and slow. And it's a lesson I still haven't learned to the extent I get complaints about my broadcasting these days. It's that I speak too fast.
Alan Fleischmann
That's funny. But he also taught you the importance of giving strong impressions when you're out there. Yes, absolutely.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, that's a good lesson in life. First impressions matter.
George Stephanopoulos
Oh, no question about it. I think it also, you know, when I looked back, it probably prepared me for, you know, serving the President of the United States who also represents this kind of exalted position, but it's a very personal connection. But you're dealing with an intimate in many ways, but you're dealing with real power there as well.
Alan Fleischmann
When you're dealing with your father, who actually is your conduit to the Almighty. That's a pretty hefty job and the community and the church and in the church are actually where people do look up to your parents and both your father and your brothers face with a certain bit of awe. You know, you learn how you learn how, you know how real people live.
George Stephanopoulos
And sometimes you want to shy away from it as well but that's not necessarily an option.
Alan Fleischmann
That's right. So when you graduated in Cleveland, right, I think as you think were in high school, and then went to Columbia. Was that a big deal that you knew that you said you lead your family to New York, but when you were looking at colleges, did you want to go to? Did you want to be on the East Coast?
George Stephanopoulos
It was such a different time, then? You know, your kids went through the same thing. My kids raised in New York City in New York City, private school, so everything is about, you know, and even when we tried to take the pressure off, there's so much focus on where are you going to go to college, how you're going to apply how many times you need to take the test? I don't know. We took our SATs. And I think I told my parents here the three places I'm applying to, and I only applied to three places: Princeton, Columbia and Michigan. And they were quite different. Princeton was kind of my reach I did not get in Michigan was the good school that, you know, the the good public school that most of the kids from Cleveland, suburban high schools would apply to, even more so than Ohio State.
At Columbia, I had one friend who had gone there, one family friend. And for me, that was more like, just different. It's New York City and no one from my high school had gone there since 1929. And it was like, really, it was sort of going out on a new path, making a break from my past, making a break from, you know, my, my high school community, my family and really moving away. And, you know, when I look back, I suppose a lot of people have this, they're probably professionally setting aside the decision to marry my wife, which was the best decision I ever made. In my life, I've probably made three key decisions that have determined everything that followed in my career, along with a whole lot of luck. And the first one was choosing to go to Columbia and making that break from my past and putting myself in a brand new environment.
Alan Fleischmann
Where you could also start your own identity or reaffirm an identity or find your voice. Did you know you wanted to study political science, or did you discover when you were at Columbia?
George Stephanopoulos
It was more discovered when I was at Columbia and had some great professors there, including a man named Charles Hamilton, who actually co-wrote Black Power with Eldridge Cleaver. You would have never guessed if that was the only thing you knew about him. You would never guess the man that I actually met who was much more like the I'm forgetting his name, but like the professor in the paper chase, Charles Hamilton was a very tall, very handsome, black man who looked a lot like Jordan Jordan, actually. And he had a booming voice and he wore a bow tie and tweeds.
He taught American political institutions and American government and politics. And he would start every lecture with a query. And he was just one of these larger than life figures on campus and he sort of ignited. I had studied in high school a bit, but he ignited my real passion for US politics and government.
Alan Fleischmann
I remember that show, “Paperchase” with John Houseman? Yeah. And you had that voice? I've been watching the show just because I loved hearing him talk. And he made you love the law, he made me want to be a lawyer. Because you could debate, you can talk about things that he wanted you to. to risk. Yeah. That's very, that's very cool. So you actually discovered that political scientists are passionate for you there. Did you run for anything? Were you on campus?
George Stephanopoulos
No, at Columbia I did a few different things. I wrestled for a while and I was very bad. But it was good training. I actually handed out leaflets for Carter Burton, who was running for Congress in 1978. But I was really put on the path towards the first stage of my career in my junior year, my junior summer, when I got the LBJ congressional internship for my local Congresswoman named Mary Rose Okar. And that was a kid with a $500 a month stipend it was during the summer. And it was the first time I'd ever been in Washington DC was that June when I went down?
I can even get choked up when I think about that moment now looking back, but I remember so vividly. Emerging from the escalator on Capitol Hill, the Capitol South Metro on a beautiful sunny summer day. And the way the escalator comes up, when you get out, you actually see the Capitol dome set up against the sky. And, you know, from that moment, I really had a feeling of wow, this is where it should be, I want to be
Alan Fleischmann
The most beautiful building in the world in many ways.
George Stephanopoulos
Which is why – and this is leaping way, way, way ahead – but it's where my mind is going now. And I'm thinking to being in the chair, anchoring our special events coverage for ABC on January 6 2021. And I have in my 30 years rarely choked up on air a couple times after school shootings when I was talking to parents and a few other occasions, but I did on that day, as the Capitol was being ransacked because it had always meant so much to me as the as the true seat of our of our peoples got our democracy and to see it desecrated in that way, it was just heartbreaking.
Alan Fleischmann
No, it's amazing. I always tell our girls that it might be the most beautiful building in the world, to me as the US Capitol. It's magnificent. And there's so many beautiful buildings in Washington,
George Stephanopoulos
I love the White House, I loved working in the White House, but the Capitol is special.
Alan Fleischmann
Now that's very right. And of course, you want to pinch yourself when you get there. We say the day you stop pitching yourself when you go to these buildings or work in those buildings as the day should leave. You know, which is awesome.
George Stephanopoulos
That's true. And you have to have a moment like that every day. But I think in those jobs, you also have to somehow suspend that sense of awe in order to just get your work done every single day.
Alan Fleischmann
I know that that means grit and fighting and doing all the things you had to do to get it right. If you live in all your paws, and you just sit there and look. You might not necessarily do. Yeah, that's actually very true. That's very true. But let’s back up a bit – at Columbia, you were the salutatorian, is that right?
George Stephanopoulos
Yes.
Alan Fleischmann
Which is the big deal. You were awarded a Truman Scholarship. Yep. And you focus on public interest. So those mentors that inspired you certainly ignited something big because you did pretty well, from that moment, to say the least. Did you know how that all happened? How did you get that public service award? It's pretty, it's pretty extraordinary.
George Stephanopoulos
Well, I mean, I just started doing the work. And I was, you know, it's one of those things I'd come from public school in Cleveland. And when I first got to Columbia, I was a little intimidated by my classmates. several of them, you know, gone to prep schools and private schools. And it seemed like they had read everything that we were now they'd already read what we were now reading, I was reading for the first time, so it kind of scared me straight my freshman year, and I worked my ass off. That was a good thing. And I did, you know, I did quite well academically. And that helped set me up for these other that combined with my work experiences help help set me up for you know, really the, the adventure of a lifetime starting on Capitol Hill.
Alan Fleischmann
And before that the Rhodes Scholarship came that actually?
George Stephanopoulos
Came after I actually yeah, I applied for the Rhodes when I was a senior and I did not get it. Just as I didn't get into Princeton, but I did get an internship at the Carnegie Endowment in DC. And it was just happenstance. I didn't know what I was going to do second semester senior year and I came upon in that you know, now it's all on the internet but I came upon a post it on the on the near the dean's office about saying you can apply for these internships and I saw it on the last possible day. I applied very quickly.
I started there in the summer after my senior year. And like a lot of people in my generation who were not going to go to med school, I promised my parents I would go to law school but I wanted to work in Washington first. So I did that internship. And then that was only a six month internship. But that fall, a man in congress, Ed Feighan, got elected in Cleveland, Ohio and I got a chance to work with him. So I put off Law School another couple of years. And then after working for him for a year. I was running out of my deferments but I was also approaching the age where it would be too late to apply again for a Rhodes scholarship. So I applied one more time and I promised my parents if I don't get it, I will go to law school this time and luckily with two more years of seasoning, I did get the Rhodes Scholarship that time and that was you know that was a huge set me off and it it set me up to continue In my career without needing to go to law school, I should say, I would think I would have loved law school. I just don't think I just know myself well enough to know that had I gone to law school, there was a very good chance that I would have become a lawyer, which is not exactly what I wanted.
Alan Fleischmann
Very similar, George, we never really talked about this, but I wanted to go to law school a few different times and always said, “My father's a lawyer, I'm gonna do this next year,” I'll do the year after and then things happen your life that you want to do, and you don't want to give up and then eventually didn't really fit in. And you always wondered, I bet I'd loved it. I encourage other people to do it.
George Stephanopoulos
I would have loved especially the first year of law school. I love the classes. And I've had the good fortune, both in my work on Capitol Hill in the White House and obviously covering and it's in the law. I do study a lot of law.
Alan Fleischmann
You interpret and live a lot of law. Yeah.
George Stephanopoulos
But I never did get the formal education.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah. Which is also amazing. Do you work with a lot of lawyers and your attorney as well? Yeah. And that's where after Rhodes must have been an amazing experience.
George Stephanopoulos
It was incredible. It was freedom. You know, it was something to do it after, after. After working for a couple of years as well, where I learned things about myself, I learned that once I had worked, I didn't really have any patience for busy work academically. And so I ended up really just studying things that I was more interested in, which was great.
I think I treated my graduate education the way a lot of people should or did treat college not so much as you know, how am I going to do but really to explore a bunch of different interests. I travel a lot. I did my first real journalism when I was there, because the way the Oxford schedule works, you go for eight weeks and then for six. And in my first break, which came in December 1984. There was a famine in Sudan. Remember, that was around the time with all the We Are the World stuff. And I actually called up the Christian Science Monitor, and volunteered to go do some freelance work for them covering the famine in Sudan. They said, "Send us what you got.” And I went on my own, got a cheap ticket to Sudan, volunteered with the International Rescue Committee in refugee camps and wrote a couple of articles, which it's such a different time. I called the articles in from a payphone at the hotel, apropos in Khartoum, into the Washington office of the Christian Science Monitor. I'd written them all out in longhand and these little blue books and you know, how it would happen.
Alan Fleischmann
You were the dispatch. Yeah, that's amazing.
George Stephanopoulos
It's so so different. And then because of that experience, I was able to go back for my second break. And I did it with an older Rhodes scholar named John Santos, who was then working at CBS Television, who was doing little documentaries. And we went back to do a documentary on the famine. But while we were there, there was actually a coup. So I wrote articles about school, we recorded right in the middle of the coup, and I got my first experience, both helping to produce a television show and writing more dispatches.
Alan Fleischmann
Switches is really what you then got into communications and immediate early, early, early, and mid year that you were there, but they were totally amazing. And then 84 to 86. And then Dukakis campaign, was that right?
George Stephanopoulos
I went back to Ed Feighan's office as the Chief of Staff first, because I actually had applied for I applied for political jobs and journalism jobs. I did not get the journalism jobs actually applied in Nightline. I still had the letter somewhere from a capitalist, executive producer of Nightline. They didn't have anything available. So I went back to capitol as Ed Feighan's Chief of Staff, but I did really want to be part of the presidential campaign. So after a year, I moved over to the Dukakis campaign first as a volunteer in New Hampshire, then I was the communications director for the Ohio primary. And then I moved to Boston in May of 2002 1000. May of 1988. And you know, at the time it looked like Dukakis was going to be president. He was riding high by the end of the convention of 17 points up but we got kind of massacred that summer.
Alan Fleischmann
You know, it's funny, I don't know if you remember this for the first time you and I and it was the first time we met or the first time we communicated. For me. I wrote you a note. And the campaign.
George Stephanopoulos
We were what it was. Yeah, we talked. That's exactly right.
Alan Fleischmann
100% I reached out I was so blown away that you read it and you called me and we talked exactly right. But once I did, I was actually just about to leave for Germany to go work in Germany to do a fellowship right after college and I was so passionate, the campaign had ideas, send them to you and call me. Yeah. So there's a lot about your leadership and that you actually said, I'm gonna pick up the phone or maybe whatever it was, I don't know it was the ideas or just the fact that you took everything seriously. But I was very impressed by that. So it was very cool. But that was what your date got known so much. I think when you were doing that campaign for Dukakis, and you're right, people thought he'd win.
Alan Fleischmann
And that matters, and then is that when this you did that, and that was an amazing experience. And then you obviously saw through the election, that must have been an amazing experience. So even though the outcome wasn't what you want it,
George Stephanopoulos
It was but it was, you know, it was tough, it was painful, painful at the end, you know, you but we learned a lot from losing. And when that was over, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I actually ended up that December, January after the loss. And of all these roads not traveled. I applied for two jobs on Capitol Hill. Both legislative director jobs, one for Al Gore, and one for Joe Biden did not, did not get either one. But in part because I also at the time, you know, I did pursue them I interviewed for those jobs.
But I also interviewed with Father Tim Healy, who is becoming the president of the New York Public Library. And that seemed like a very different experience, I would be his chief of staff. And I decided at that point to take that job. I was very impressed with Faber. He also wanted to get a little bit more management experience in something very different in a different world. But I guess politics was not out of my blood. Because not six months later, there was all this upheaval on Capitol Hill, Jim Wright was ousted from the Democrat from Democratic speakership, the all of the leadership basically got pushed out. And Dick Gephardt became the house majority leader. And because of my rabbi, one of my rabbis in the Dukakis campaign was Kirk O'Donnell, who had been an aide to do the Speaker of the House, Tip O'Neill, and he had gone into the campaign. And he gave my name to get part. And to be his foreman, which really was a dream job. And even though I thought I left politics, at least for a while, when I got the chance to interview for that job and get it, I went back, and it was just an amazing experience.
It's funny talking about and it's only I haven't thought about some of this stuff for so long. I now remember the day I was interviewing for that job, it was the summer of what I guess it was 1989. And it was a very hot day, I was taking the shuttle down to DC for the interview. And it was one of those days where nothing was taking off. And I was sitting for three hours on the tarmac and I was just certain.
Alan Fleischmann
You wouldn’t have the job now because you're not gonna make the interview.
George Stephanopoulos
I'm not gonna make the interview. And it turned out the Gephardt was in a million meetings. And that's, and you also learned that's not the way most people think they're not gonna punch you. Because you're you're playing you're stuck with a real answer.
Alan Fleischmann
And the real reason why you never know, you could have made a decision and said we know.
George Stephanopoulos
Nothing we can do. Yeah. But I did make it and I got the job. And that was just a terrific space. Now. I think one of the reasons Gephardt had hired me was because I'd worked on the campaign. And at the time, he was thinking of running for president. But by the time it came for him to think that didn't make the decision in 91, that was that spring, when George HW Bush was writing very, very high. After the first Gulf War 90% approval ratings, and all the top Democrats or it seemed like all the top Democrats from Bill Burr, Mario Cuomo to Jay Rockefeller, all of a sudden decided to take a pass on the campaign.
Even though I loved my job on Capitol Hill. I still wanted to be part of another presidential campaign. And I would say this was the second I mean, I was lucked out on the roads. But this was the second big decision I made along with going to college when I left this terrific job on Capitol Hill and ended up going to work for Bill Clinton and moving to Arkansas cut my pay in half. did not really think at the time that he was going to become president, but I thought it would be a great experience. It was something I really wanted to try one more time and of course, it set me on a completely different path.
Alan Fleischmann
Probably one of the most exciting campaigns ever because the expectation is to your point. You know, he wasn't nationally known, those who knew him knew him because he was such an incredible, dynamic guy that reached out he was, he was like, everyone gives you credit to 41 to President Bush, the father for all his handwritten notes. And obviously, Bill Clinton doesn't get full credit for all that he did, to keep in touch with people and to reach out with people.
George Stephanopoulos
He had built up such a network called the Friends of Bill. And part of my job when I first joined the campaign was to be someone who kept in touch with all the friends of Bill who had policy and political ideas to funnel to the candidate.
Alan Fleischmann
When did you know that it was becoming obvious there were so many trials and tribulations that campaign and brilliant moves where he didn't even win New Hampshire but then became the focal point of New Hampshire? I mean, when did you know that this was different from the Dukakis campaign?
George Stephanopoulos
Oh, was it? I mean, it took a while. I mean, we had a few near death experiences, and Jennifer in the draft and people forget, but in the spring of 1992, Bill Clinton was actually in third place behind Ross Perot, and George HW Bush. But things started to gel as we were heading into the convention, at a very, very successful convention. I'll never forget that day.
Alan Fleischmann
That was my favorite convention – it was the best event.
George Stephanopoulos
And you know, right in the middle of the convention, Ross Perot drops out and essentially endorses Bill Clinton once we came out of the convention with a massive lead, although that wasn't the moment for me. Because, you know, I've been through the Dukakis campaign and seeing that fall away, as well. But we had a lot of confidence.
I remember exactly the day it was a Sunday morning in September, where I was, we were at the in Washington, DC because Clint was going to give a big trade speech. He was saying, I think we're staying at the Washington Hilton, I may be getting the hotel wrong. But he was really cranky about the speech. And he was kind of yelling about it, but his heart wasn't exactly and it was just sitting here in his bedroom. I had given him the speech. And he finally stopped complaining about the speech and looked up to me and said, “You think we're going to win, don't you?” Yeah. I knew there was that point in September, it would listen, and you don't want to take anything for granted. But, you know, we had tested every possible argument every which way. We knew where everything stood, things hadn't moved. And you know, it looked like unless we really messed up, he was going to be President of the United States. And that was just such a crystallizing moment.
Alan Fleischmann
It sounds like it was, it sounds like you may have been convinced before he was.
George Stephanopoulos
No, I don’t think so.
Alan Fleischmann
Oh, no. Okay. He just wanted to see that you got it. I'll tell you the one thing that I was blown away by, was that you in you started something with doing it. But you committed to doing the “War Room” – the film, you no matter what the the outcome was a ton of time, right? The outcome was, you didn't know if you're going to win or lose, but you let people in.
George Stephanopoulos
That's one of those things where you never know if something is going to work out when we did this. Yeah. You know, we had no idea. Well, first of all, I heard of Pennybacker. But, you know, we thought this was going to be, you know, something that played on PBS on a Friday night, a couple of years down the road. And they actually, I mean, he was a genius filmmaker, and he was not around that much. He probably had three days of access. Wow. But he turned it into something. Amazing.
Alan Fleischmann
Have your girls seen it?
George Stephanopoulos
Yeah, they’ve definitely seen parts of it. You know, it's so strange because you know, I got married relatively late in life and didn't get married until 2001. And my girls only knew me as someone who you know, was a journalist who worked on television. To them it's a completely different thing.
Alan Fleischmann
I realized that you were really well known because of another life.
George Stephanopoulos
Yeah. I mean, I had a whole life before they came around.
Alan Fleischmann
You know, it just dawned on me I shouldn't – I'm gonna make this happen, I'm gonna have our girls watch it because it is such an incredible glimpse into that campaign it's still relevant today. I'd be curious whether they're part of it does as well.
George Stephanopoulos
I haven't seen in a while I see on TV everyone's gonna you see little snatches but yes, it in a long time.
Alan Fleischmann
But it was such an incredible thing and then it was even more incredible to see it afterwards. And as you're watching it to realize what if the outcome had been different? It wasn't an arrogance. It was confidence. And that's also really powerful to see people.
George Stephanopoulos
And ignorance too. Confidence and ignorance. Let's add all three together.
Alan Fleischmann
But it was pretty amazing. And obviously, the turbulence of being in the administration was real. And that's where you got the situation rooms and you got exposed to things that you studied them, obviously, what sets you apart. But, you know, you saw firsthand, and especially at the beginning of your time in the White House, there wasn't a lot of competition for who was in the room. I mean, there was a lot of people in the room. I don't mean that there are other people that advise but the Clinton White House had, it's quiet, it's chaos too. Early on, and going from being a governor to be a president is never too easy. And you are right there on the front lines as the most known face, I would argue.
George Stephanopoulos
Pretty sure at all getting as well and which one? Which one? I took a lot of the heat as well. I mean, even though it was my first briefing. My first briefing in the White House on my first day, I guess it wasn't quite as bad as Sean Spicer having to say that it was the biggest crowd of all time, but we were facing a situation where the President's first nominee for attorney general Zoe Baird was clearly not going to make it. But I plug in my first briefing, so I had to defend somebody who I knew was not going to make we were getting hit on gays in the military already. We made this decision to close the press office, Upper Press Office door to the press, which they were enraged about, even though it was not my decision. I of course, I did take all the I, I got pretty pummeled my first day in the White House.
Alan Fleischmann
That was that was a big, that was a big deal. You're out there. And obviously, throughout and, you know, I love when people leave academia, or they leave corporate America, they say I want to go into politics, where it's, you know, less political. And I'm always like, What are you talking about? You were right there in the heat of so many things from a policy from a people.
George Stephanopoulos
You know, the difference from most other places is that it's, it's one of those, it's one of those jobs where all the decisions that you're advising on and all decisions you're making all the presentations you're making, are under the, you know, the most the most heightened scrutiny imaginable. Yeah, you know, it's very hard for presidents to create the space to deliberate and really, and so that they can make the best decisions.
Alan Fleischmann
Had you ever wanted to be White House Chief of Staff. Having been a Chief of Staff?
George Stephanopoulos
It was. I think that yeah, that would be a great job. I mean, it's, it's obvious, it's gone, it's, I ended up choosing another path. That would have been a great job. By the time at the end of the first term, I wasn't going to be chief of staff. And because of I had taken so much income, in the first term, I also couldn't get really couldn't get confirmed for any job that I would want. So that's why I chose to leave at the end of the first time, otherwise, I would have done more of what I've been doing, which was kind of a form of crisis management, which was interesting and fascinating and served me my whole life. But I was pretty burnt out on it by the end of the first term.
Alan Fleischmann
And then did you know what you want to do when you walk out the door that day?
George Stephanopoulos
I knew what I didn't want to do. I knew that I didn't want to become an itinerant political consultant. You just moved from campaign to campaign. And I knew I didn't want to become a lobbyist. I had actually been offered some, during some of my trips down town at the White House, I'd been offered quite high level lobbying and, you know, public relations jobs. I knew I didn't want to do that, either. So I, and I'd always, you know, going back to my college days, I'd always been intrigued by journalism.
And so I, you know, sort of set up a year where I would decide what to do. And I cobbled together a few things. I went back and taught at Columbia. I was writing a column for Newsweek, I was writing my book and I became an analyst on ABC News, but one of their big selling points I was actually the last person recruited by Roone Arledge when he was head of ABC News. And one of his big selling points he then handed the reins to David Weston who became a real mentor of mine was that you know, if you choose to make this your profession, you know, we have a good track record of that. and we'll help you grow into it. And they made good on that.
Alan Fleischmann
That's incredible. David Westin is such a great person. He's not afraid to lead with your mind and your heart. That's awesome, too. So you started off as a political analyst. And then you were on you were on –
George Stephanopoulos
I was usually paired with Bill Kristol and some others. Yeah. And after a couple of years of that, after my book came out in 1999, I had learned some stuff about myself, I also learned some of the things I didn't want to do. I had been doing some consulting then as well. I realized that that really wasn't because I wanted a full time job, I wanted to go back and be in an organization to have a job. And ABC gave me the opportunity to start doing that. So I started, you know, to also be a correspondent for the weekend shows, which I had never done before. I did some anchoring on their overnight show, which I had never done before. And then in 2001, I became the anchor of “This Week,” and that sent me in a new path.
Alan Fleischmann
That was a legendary show. You took, that couldn’t be easy, too, because you inherited it.
George Stephanopoulos
Cokie Roberts and Sam Donaldson, he inherited from David Brinkley, David Brinkley, and I inherited from him so yeah, I was following some big I was filling something.
Alan Fleischmann
That was an experiment for you. And it was an experiment, I would argue for them. Sure, was, it was a generational shift of they were already realizing that they wanted to capture a different kind of audience.
George Stephanopoulos
And you know, like any show, I mean, Seinfeld famously didn't have a great first run out, of course, I didn't end up making it nearly as successful. Right. But there it was, it was, it was a rocky start, I, you know, went through a lot of hazing. They had even at one point, I think, offered my job to Ted Koppel, who decided he didn't want it. But I found my legs and I was able to turn it into something after a couple of years. Yeah.
Alan Fleischmann
And then, obviously, and then I remember very well, when you had a Good Morning America too. But you've never lost the focus on public life. And you know, what's the drama of politics in our country and leadership?
George Stephanopoulos
When they came to me, when David Westin came to me, this was many years later in 2009. To think take over Good Morning, America. I said no, three times. I didn’t think it was for me. But it was one of those things. I also knew that if I didn't take it, I was putting a cap on what I could do at ABC. I mean, I only was wanting to be anchoring the special events and the big events. And at the time, I thought one day I wanted to anchor the evening news. And you know, and I realized that the only way I would ever be able to do those other things was if I went to Good Morning America, which is something I didn't necessarily think at the time I was suited for it. I wasn't sure it was going to work for the network, either.
But David Westin was very persuasive. And I'm very, very grateful to him, because he was right, I should say he was right. You know, luckily, both for me personally and for the network. I mean, I've been there now for a long, long time. Robin and I are the longest serving team ever, in morning television. And you know, we've been number one for the last 13, 14 years.
Alan Fleischmann
Which is huge, because I remember when it was NBC, NBC, and you guys were always struggling with CBS was always in a different place. But now it's like, you know, it's, it's, it's considered, that's the way it is, you know, that that you lead, but what I loved about this ever being very part of your life at that time, as well. But, you know, it was also gutsy to hold on. I mean, you're changing where you lived, you were holding on to a place that was headquartered in DC. And with the Sunday show, you were taking on something that was gonna be a whole different demographic, by far. That was changing Monday through Friday. But what it's done, it's it, and you've done a really good job of always being George Stephanopoulos of Good Morning America and George Stephanopoulos at “This Week.”
George Stephanopoulos
Thank you, thank you. And one of the things you know, one of the things about television is that you can lose your job at any moment. But also if you do it for a while, it's also very hard to get pushed out. It's a funny combination. But the only way to get better at it is by doing it. You just have to put in the time, every single day in the country.
I was lucky and there's also the way that my bosses and executive producers have produced the show and it finally clicked in. And it was probably about two years in, where I realized and they realized that the best way to do the show is simply to be yourself. I know that sounds silly, but it's so true. And not to pretend that every single story is something that you know a lot about or care about, but to react like a human being to the panoply of stories that people are presented with every morning, and once you, once you once that is locked in and you kind of lose yourself consciousness about how you should be presenting yourself, I mean, it, it actually becomes a much easier job. And a much more fun job. And I think it becomes one that serves the viewers better.
Alan Fleischmann
It's true. But I will say that there again, we're living in the age where authenticity matters. And if you are any bit artificial, not every case, but you kind of don't make it. It says if you're if you're a phony, or you're not really being true to yourself, and that's gonna work, you are one of the first people who actually did that. I mean, you were yourself, but you also represent two sides. You have been exposed to power, you have been exposed to, to policy and to issues. So when you actually enter into people's lives, so you can actually represent to him to have a coin, you can talk about what those issues are about. And at the same time, ask the questions in a way that people can say, he's speaking for me, that's a very hard thing to do.
George Stephanopoulos
Well, that and this was with a lot of teaching and a lot of practice. You know, when you first take a job as an interviewer, and I say this, none of the younger correspondents all the time, you feel compelled to show the audience how much you know. And sometimes the best way to do that is to, to sort of absorb it all. And let it go. Then just ask the most simple direct questions. And follow up. It's like this, you remember the scene in Birdcage where Robin Williams is coaching Hank, and he says do a little bit of this, a little bit of that, but keep it all inside. That's an interview. So you have to do all of your preparation for all of your homework, no, all of the arguments, know all of the avenues that the person you're interviewing might take, and then let it go. Aask direct questions. And listen.
Alan Fleischmann
I see why you're doing it is really hard to do while you're doing it.
George Stephanopoulos
Next question: all of that.
Alan Fleischmann
Live television is hard. Because you got to be really, really in the moment. You got to really, really understand the moment
George Stephanopoulos
And be aware of the clock and all that kind of thing that comes with practice.
Alan Fleischmann
But you've had interviews now with obviously, you've worked with presidents, you've witnessed presidents, you've had interviews, as I said, in my introduction, with presidents, obviously, you're the go to person as the chief anchor, but you've also witnessed CEOs and leadership and you celebrities that are all around you. And good morning America as well. Is there one interview that stands out as your favorite, which is really hard to do? I know, probably the impossible question.
George Stephanopoulos
No one favorite but they're all a bunch of different areas that I like for different reasons. Probably the strangest was when I interviewed Muammar Gaddafi, at a time when he was talking about and he gave the first hints that he was going to give up his chemical weapons. It was actually in a parking lot in Tripoli, but he set it up in a tent as if we were in the desert, even though it was a parking lot in Tripoli. And you know, he was very strange at that time. He pretended he didn't speak English, even though he spoke very, very well. He stopped the interview midway to start praying. He ended up making this big, big news as well. And that was an interesting one.
I remember an interview that I did with an anti-vaxxer named Andrew Wakefield, which is one of the first times I came on the edge of being very emotional. But I was so offended by what he was doing and how I thought it was going to that I was just I was I was kind of relentless in the interview is one of the first times that people aren't Good Morning America had recently done it on this week and other like with political interviews, I've done it as well. But that was one of the first times they had seen them. They kind of liked it. I've had you know, I got the chance to go down to the Bahamas when Sam Bankman-Fried was first about to be indicted, and that was a wild, three and a half hour, and if you're every time you interview a president, it's, it's amazing. Yeah, every single time and it was really fun to be able to go back down, you know, just a couple of weeks ago when my book came out and did the first interview from the new situation room and talked to people about that as well. So I've had a lot of great experiences.
Alan Fleischmann
The idea of the Situation Room book was obviously you know, your I'd love to hear a little bit your insights on leadership and who you consider to be great leaders, there's probably no better room to judge leadership than the Situation Room, where you see atomic crisis management, you know, what you're dealing with some of the most extraordinary moments in history, and you've studied them, you've lived them, and you've studied them. And you know what, to ask what to look for, just a little bit about, for the book perspective, everybody who's listening to the buy that book because they need to, because it's not just a book on the political world of leadership, it actually is, and our audience is so focused on leadership, it's really a blueprint on leadership itself.
George Stephanopoulos
I mean, I learned a lot, I mean, it helped me to distill some lessons about what makes for good leadership and good decisions. Because you know, when it comes to the Situation Room, when the presidents are, they're making their key decisions, by the time a decision reaches that level, in the Situation Room, they are the toughest of the tough decisions. These are the 51-49 calls, these are the decisions where there's not really a good option, you're often choosing the least worst option.
The principles for when a decision making process works, I think are pretty clear. And for me, they begin with trust. The most important thing for a leadership team is for that team to trust each other and to have each other's backs as the decision is being made – to have the feeling that while we may come into this with real disagreements, we're going to leave united behind the ultimate decision that our leader makes.
Which gets to the second key for, you know, good decision making, which is you the process asked it, it has to be a place where people feel safe enough to dissent, if necessary, and know that that dissent will not be used against you, but also that it will matter that you will be heard. And of course, the trade off for that is that, you know, you go along with the decision. That is that is being made. And that's where you come it comes back to trust. And I think I assume this works across disciplines, but particularly in the situation room when they're dealing with these political geopolitical decisions. You have to have a strong sense of history, but not be paralyzed by that.
That comes to the fore, when you were thinking when I was writing about President Obama's decision to take out Osama bin Laden, the ghosts of what had happened in 1979, 1980, with the failed rescue mission of the hostages, had hung over that entire mission, and so many people involved in the decision in under Obama had been working on it. During the Carter administration, well, most notably, Robert Gates was the defense secretary, who actually famously went to Obama in the final days, he was the only major principle who was at first against the rescue operation. And he went to Obama and said, you know, maybe this is a case where my experience is hurting you. Maybe it's made me too cautious in this situation. But people like Admiral McRaven, who were leading the seal mission, had studied that for a generation, and knew and learned from all the mistakes that plagued the Carter mission. And so it all came together in the right way at the right time.
Alan Fleischmann
And I guess the other art is making sure you've got the right people in the room, everybody would want everybody would want to be in the situation room. You know, that famous photo that I did seared in my brain of watching the screen when everyone was watching and then looking to see who was in the room when Osama bin Laden was killed. You know, it's a powerful lesson and who was in there who wasn't in there in the room but picking the right people are, you know, to be in the room when you're making big decisions.
George Stephanopoulos
Huge and that you know, that basically, that's what we choose. We pay presidents to pick the right people and to make the right decisions. So those are really the three I guess the third thing and to communicate them that's really the job of the president distilled. Yeah, Alan I have to I have to go this is this hour has flown by.
Alan Fleischmann
Flew, flew by. It's been amazing. This is the perfect time to close. I would say let's have you back on George, we'd love to have you back on. I'd love to talk to you more about leadership and your book, but you've been listening to “Leadership Matters” on leadershipmattersshow.com and on Sirius XM. George, it’s been wonderful having you on the show, and I'm looking forward to having you back. People have got to read your book. We'll make sure they do.
George Stephanopoulos
I'll see you soon.
Alan Fleischmann
I'll see you soon. Thanks so much.