Hans Vestberg
Chairman and CEO of Verizon Communications
“You need to know yourself, then you know who you're going to recruit to diversify. You need the opposite [of yourself]. I mean, having 14 people like me or 10 people like me leading Verizon probably is not a really good idea.”
Summary
On this episode of Leadership Matters, the Chairman and CEO of Verizon, Hans Vestberg, discusses the importance of effective communication, virtues of a good leader, and the role of diversity in teams.
With host Alan Fleischmann, he opens up about the powerful careers moments that shaped his professional mission and personal beliefs, which informed Verizon's response to the murder of George Floyd and approach racial injustice issues. They also cover the world’s largest telecommunications provider’s response to the COVID-19 Pandemic, explaining some of their unique solutions, such as providing a daily informative webcast to employees and stakeholders, providing transparency and visibility. "Verizon, by nature,” Vestberg says, “is prepared for crisis, all the time!"
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
Guest Bio
Hans Vestberg is chairman and CEO of Verizon Communications, the leading provider of wireless, fiber-optic and global Internet networks and services. Prior to assuming the role of CEO in August 2018 and the role of Chairman in March 2019, Mr. Vestberg served as Verizon’s Chief Technology Officer and President of Global Networks.
At Verizon, he has focused on transforming the businesses 2.0 customer-centric strategy, leading the company to be first in the world to deploy 5G home and mobile technology, delivering seamless experiences for customers.
Before joining Verizon in April 2017, Vestberg served for six years as President and CEO of Ericsson, a multinational networking and telecommunications equipment and services company headquartered in Sweden that provides 35 percent of the world’s 2G, 3G and 4G mobile network infrastructures. For more than a decade after joining Ericsson in 1991, he gained broad international experience with leadership positions on four continents. He was instrumental in developing Ericsson’s industry-leading services organization, which grew three-fold during his five years of management. In 2007 he became Ericsson’s Chief Financial Officer, and he was named CEO in 2009. As CEO, he led more than 115,000 employees as the company transformed from a focus on hardware to software and services.
Follow Hans Vestberg on Twitter, Instagram, or Linkedin.
Clips from this Episode
On Verizon's efforts to remain connected with it's employees, throughout the COVID-19 Pandemic
On the powerful careers moments that shaped his professional mission & beliefs
On Verizon's response to the murder of George Floyd & it's attitudes about racial injustice
On his concern about achieving "UN Millennium Development" goals & sustainability goals
Episode Transcription
Alan Fleischmann
You're listening to “Leadership Matters” on SiriusXM. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. I'm here with my good friend, the Chairman and CEO of Verizon Communications, Hans Vestberg. I'm honored to be joined by Hans. It's a massive responsibility that he has a CEO. Hans's in charge of the country's leading 4g LTE network, the largest 5g testbed in the United States, the nation's biggest residential fiber network, and an undersea cable system that moves much of the world's internet traffic. If you're listening to this episode online, it's likely that Verizon technology is making that possible. And if you're one of the millions and millions of Americans who have been lucky enough to switch to your home office during the pandemic without any transmission errors, it's a good chance that you're using Verizon technology to connect with coworkers, friends, family and clients. Hans has been with Verizon for about three years now, became CEO in 2018, and Chairman last year. Before joining Verizon, Han served for six years as president and CEO of Ericsson, the networking and telecoms giant based in his native country of Sweden. Han was also chairman of the Swedish Olympic Committee. He is a member of the Leadership Council of the UN sustainable development solutions network. And he is truly a citizen of the world. He speaks four languages. He's lived in Asia, Latin America, and North America. And of course in Europe. He is also in my opinion, one of the coolest CEOs out there. And I know we talk and get to meet great leaders on this show. And I don't think we've ever had anyone as interesting, as authentic, and as active as Hans. So it's really a pleasure to have you on Leadership Matters.
Hans Vestberg
Thank you, sir. It was a very nice introduction of you. Thank you.
Alan Fleischmann
It is really truly a pleasure. We're going to talk about some serious things today. I hope we also get to capture your journey, because I think our audience and our listeners really want to know about you as well. But I thought we'd start off discussing some of the challenges. You know, obviously, that we're facing during a very difficult time. Not only for the United States, but, frankly, globally. And there's a tremendous amount of pressure on your company during a pandemic. And certainly, as your infrastructure is critical to keeping so many people in touch with one another and businesses running afloat. Many working from home, families needing to get ecommerce and food delivery, all of which needs good broadband and good connectivity. How are you able to juggle all your responsibilities, I know that one of your most important and significant goals to you is also your employees. And how you manage to do all of that during the pandemic. We're going to talk about race and inequities and challenges around that today, because it's so important to you and it's so important to all of us. But I thought we'd start off by just talking about you and the pandemic. And then we can talk about what's happening. That's really a high priority as well.
Hans Vestberg
Alan, it's unprecedented times and I've been around for a while. I've been in crises all the way from the telecom crisis through the banking crisis. I have never seen anything like these. It's a pandemic, economic crisis, and also we have the racial injustice at the same time. But let me start with the pandemic. And I'll guess we'll come to the others later on. Early on in the pandemic, Verizon is, by nature, prepared for crisis all the time. And the main reason is that we have had so many natural disasters in the last couple of years where lives has been lost–connectivity is extremely important. And the first thing we do, of course, we run to those crisises. That's what we do, because we understand our importance here. So our current sort of structure is prepared for this. So when the pandemic came out, we established our Emergency Operations Center extremely early on, which is actually taking care of the most pressing issues in a crisis in order for the leadership team to work with both the business as usual, but also to rethink things that will happen after this and during this when it comes to products or enterprise for the future. So that structure we put up very early on, in order to see that we are operating as efficient as possible. But clearly, this is something that's very different from anything I've seen before and the playbook that you have, you know, you need to rethink the playbook and many of the decisions you take now, they will impact you in the next five to 10 years. That's how I think and we outline very early on our priorities in our Emergency Operations Center with the executive team. That, number one, keeping our employees health and safety. That's, today, still the most important goal. Number two, serve our customers and the networks. This country and the rest of the world are relying on our equipment and our infrastructure so they can communicate with friends, family, and not only that, do their business and continue to operate. Then, thirdly, help our communities. This is the time when the most vulnerable are even more impacted. And we, as a responsible company, we need to see that we are doing our part of our responsibility. And finally, taking proactive business decisions, because ultimately I need to move the company forward so we come stronger afterward, so I'm even a better leader for all the stakeholders in the company. And that's how we have been operating for the last 13, 14 weeks. And that's still how we operate in our company right now. So I think the structure and the priorities are very important to know why you're taking certain decisions when you're in a crisis. You cannot start fumbling around priorities. And what is the purpose of the company in the middle of all this? That has to be clear, and then you can actually lead your company.
Alan Fleischmann
I'm curious how you describe your own leadership style. Because what I've seen, and looking at you and what you've done, you've kept your employees extremely motivated. And I think part of that is you become extremely accessible to them. You're really reaching out to them using your own technology that actually allows you to keep them focused on the customer.
Hans Vestberg
I will tell you how I’m working. In the beginning of this pandemic, I was sitting down with my head of communication, Jim Gerace. We were discussing how are we showing up in this crisis? Because this is when you need to reassure your employees about what's happening in the company. Not having all the answers–I have to be clear on that–you don't. But it's better that at least you speak out and be transparent. And we decided to, at noon every day, have our live webcast. And I will speak to employees and I would usually have the head of HR, which was also our crisis management, talking what's happening, what are measures we're taking, going through our priorities for the company. We started that 13 weeks ago, we still run it at noon every day. I am nowadays only twice a week because I think they’re tired of me, but at least for 10, 11 weeks, I was there noon for 30, 45 minutes, taking questions, talking what we're doing, talking about trivial things–how I'm operating, etc. We have viewership from I would say live 30,000, to up to earlier last week, we had over 90,000 on the live webcast. And we do it both internally and externally nowadays, so it's a lot of customers, shareholders and a lot of other people on the webcast who start asking questions. But we have nothing to hide. And in these times, you need to lead. So that was a decision from the beginning, we wanted to be visible, we wanted to be on the front line for our employees.
Alan Fleischmann
It also accelerated your leadership style, because you are very accessible–the fact that you shared your calendar and what you were doing every day. All of a sudden, the role of the CEO changed. Because they saw you as someone on the frontlines on behalf of them. And I don't know any other CEOs who actually say, “Let me tell you what I'm doing today.” And you would share that on your daily webcast quite a bit.
Hans Vestberg
Yeah, I would usually say what meetings I would have, if I had a board meeting and who I would meet. I also share with my team–and this is very important–I have been measuring my working time the last 10 years. And the main reason is I want to steer my time to what is most beneficial for the company I'm leading. There are certain things I should do, there are certain things others should do. And so I do a forecast in advance for a quarter how I should spend my time. And then I follow up and I share that. I had my leadership forum this week with some top 300 employees of Verizon at the meeting. I shared with them how January, February, March and April look like, how had I spent my time between internal things, shareholders, customers, COVID-19, board meetings. So they see how I spend my time and how I try to direct it. And I tell them, “You need to direct your time as well.” Because as a leader, one of the most important things you have is actually to lead and spend time on the right things. And seeing that your team is flourishing, that they take actions, and that they are empowered to do things. You shouldn't do all all things–you need to get the team to work and that's what I'm trying to share with them. I'm not sure that everybody is equally excited over measuring every hour in a spreadsheet and Excel. I get excited over it. I get excited over it and I know that I spend time on what I think is the most important for Verizon.
Alan Fleischmann
The fact that you're accessible probably means not that you're more demanding, it's that your expectations for action and results become, especially at times like this, even a higher priority. And you'll be there to actually make sure it's being done and done swiftly. So that's both I’m sure a challenging aspect of your leadership, but it's also obviously an important one.
Hans Vestberg
Yeah, it is. And of course, some days you can feel that I have repeated the same things 50 times. But that's probably when it starts to hit the organization and when my organization really starts to understand where we're going. So you, as a leader, need to be very focused. You need to continue to bring out your messages and they have to be consistent over time. That's extremely important, especially in a crisis like this.
Alan Fleischmann
In addition to this pandemic, which obviously has its own unique and ongoing stresses, we are now in golf in a climate of sadness, certainly grieving and rage, following the killing of George Floyd. I watched the video of your response to his murder and it was extremely moving. And I would actually urge listeners to watch it. You felt, and one can feel when watching it, how deeply you felt about what happened. And frankly, you spoke in a way that so many of us needed words from someone to share and you shared it. How are you and your team reacting? And how are you taking action in the wake of George Floyd's tragic death? And the issue of racial justice, the protests happening around? You think a lot about inequality–I know, we’ve talked about it. And I would love to hear how you're addressing it. And then what you hope comes out of this as action, especially since we're still grieving.
Hans Vestberg
It's been a very tough time for many with this. Racism and what we're seeing with injustice and all of that. And I think that first of all, CEOs speaking out, yeah, that's great. But it has to be bounded and grounded in the structure of the company. We have a very clear strategy: that diversity and inclusion is making Verizon a better company. We need to reflect the society, we need to make better decisions. So this came so naturally from us, that this was not okay. Because that's a ground, core value of the company in our credo, that diversity and inclusion should be here. So that was, of course, how we had then discussed with our employee resource group that is representing these group. And they came back and also discussed with us because, ultimately, I had to acknowledge them. And that's what I did in my speeches. Well, my life experience, if I'm coming from Sweden, I don't have all the information and the reasons. But I want to help. And that was very much what I felt so sad then about when I tried to express my feelings around them and how we can contemplate and do something. And of course, we decided directly to give donations to the most important organizations fighting in the space: 10 million US dollars. But more important, we just powered up all the conversations in the company so we can do what we are doing. Because, ultimately, we have a responsibility for our company. But I'm so far reaching: I'm reaching out to all my customers and all of society so that the conversation is much broader. And that's how we responded. And this response is not over. This is something that has to be ongoing. And if you want to have diversity and inclusion as core values of your company, you need to continue to take this fight. And that's what I tried to explain and express. And of course, it was an emotional moment for many of us as we saw what unfolded. But I think that my team and the organization are responding. That doesn't mean we have solved all the problems, and we know how to do it. But we have a great dialogue about it. And we will continue to have the dialogue.
Alan Fleischmann
I know that comes with great action, but you spoke in a way with your humility, because maybe you come from Sweden. You didn't try to act like you knew all the answers. You came with a lot of questions and a lot of, “Let's approach this together.” And I think that is a very much needed and powerful way to approach this ongoing crisis. And it is one I hope, that doesn't get lifted–that we figure out ways that we can actually deal with these inequities. I know you do as well.
Alan Fleischmann
You're listening to “Leadership Matters” on SiriusXM, I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann, and I'm here with my good friend Hans Vestberg, who's the chairman and CEO of Verizon Communications, we're talking about the pandemic, we're talking about race and equities. And we're talking about leadership. And I'd like to change gears just for a moment, Hans, if I can and discuss your life. You've had such an extraordinary journey and how you got here. You lived all over the world, literally. And I suspect being Swedish is a huge part of your identity. Swedish society has a reputation for being quite egalitarian, fitting in with your style of leadership, your approachability and your authenticity. Where individual freedoms and human rights are very much a part of the culture, as is environmental protection which is a big priority of yours. How do you feel? Growing up in Sweden, has it influenced your leadership values and leadership style?
Hans Vestberg
Absolutely. I'm born in in northern part of Sweden. And for the ones that know something about Sweden, if you bought in a northern part of Sweden, you're very quiet and you don't speak much. So I left the northern part pretty early on.
Alan Fleischmann
You did not fit!
Hans Vestberg
But the values that comes from my family and how you treat people with respect and so on. Of course you bring that with you. So yes, I have some Swedish heritage in my leadership. I think I even have more international leadership as I have been leading international organizations and have lived in so many countries. I put a mixture of all of that in how I lead. But my biggest learnings come from being board chairman. That's really where I learned how to be a team player and how to see the values in each and every individual and each and every diversity. So I think it's a mix of all of that during my years. I've been able to work and have worked in a lot of capital enterprises. But I've been in nonprofits, I've been in the UN Foundation, I've been in sports organizations like the Olympic Committee, etc., where there is no money at all for the people. You're actually driving in motivation, and you have a common cause. So I'd say it's a mix of all that. I've been fortunate to get all those influences and work with all these types of people.
Alan Fleischmann
It’s interesting that you’re a part of sports organizations with the core idea of sports being teamwork and breaking down barriers. And too often it's two groups opposing one another. But if you're on the same team, you're actually collaborating with one another. I can see how that connects. And your father–you mentioned in different places how much of an influence on leadership your father has had on you. I'd love you to share that a little bit.
Hans Vestberg
My father is probably the one who has influenced me the most. He took a very decisive step in his life and it was young: he decided that he would become my coach when I played team handball–not much known in the US, but very big in Europe and Sweden. It’s one of the biggest Olympic sports. So he decided, I think it was at five or six that he would start to coach my team. And he followed me to. I think I was 22 or 23 years old, played on senior level, and he was my coach through all that time. So of course, I spent probably five days a week, sometimes seven days a week together with my father, together with my team mates. And he treated me as a team player, as anyone on the team. And I learned a lot of how you integrate. He could see the different players–I think that was the biggest thing he learned, that I usually get very aggressive and sometimes I need to calm down. He saw others that needed to be aggressive sometimes. He could see all that playlist, of different players and their characteristics. And I, today, call that adaptive leadership. And I try to do that every day. I try to learn the background on my direct reports: where they come from, their background, what has crafted them. That's more important in many cases right now, because then I know how I’m going to lead these people. Because people are so different. I can’t give the same work task with one message to different individuals on my leadership team, they will execute it differently. And the main reason is that the background is different. They've been trained differently. So if I don't know them well enough, I cannot really manage them. And that's coming from my adaptive leadership that I've learned through my career and having lived in so many countries. But my father was fantastic and he dedicated his life to do everything for me to be a great athlete. I guess he never succeeded with that. That was more my problem that his, but he created me at least as a human. And I'm grateful for that forever. And I had some success in sports, but not all at the aspiration I had.
Alan Fleischmann
You almost went pro, right?
Hans Vestberg
Yeah, I was semi-professional. So I dedicated my time to it. But I was never as good as my dreams. But ultimately, I learned so much from it. And it's created me as a person more than anything else in my career.
Alan Fleischmann
You have a wonderful combination of being competitive, very competitive, and being warm. Your dad was a combination of focusing that competitive part in life, but also, certainly, the way you talk about him with a sense of warmth as well. It's an unusual combination, unfortunately. But fortunately, with you. Let's talk about your career a little bit. Because you obviously may not have gone pro with sports, but you did go pro with business. You're not a tech guy by training. But I would argue, and I said earlier about all the languages that you speak, you do speak high technology fluently. So you studied business and economics, obviously, that's important. You were attracted to telecommunications. That's why you went to Ericsson and obviously Verizon. But over the course of your career, how did you learn that language? Because it is a language that you get very sophisticated when you're talking about high tech, but you also know how to communicate it to the customer and communicate it to other stakeholders so they kind of join the journey with you.
Hans Vestberg
Yeah, the journey’s been a little bit difficult. This is my second employer. Erickson was my first and Verizon is the second.
Alan Fleischmann
And there have not been that many CEOs of Verizon either, right? In the 20 years?
Hans Vestberg
I'm number three.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, that's incredible too.
Hans Vestberg
And I started checking travel expenses at Ericsson. That's what I started in, and of course I didn't see a bright future there. But one thing led to another and my curiosity for doing more and broader things constantly with great leaders at Ericsson brought me quite quickly to work in China, to Argentina, to Chile, to Brazil, to Mexico, to the United States. And I worked with different tasks all the time. And then I was of course, in finance. For a while I was in supply I was in manufacturing, I was in structuring, I was in sales, I was leading a business unit. So I think that I worked in all functions, except maybe research and development at Ericsson, and maybe not HR. So fantastic training. And for the last couple years, a lot in technology which is the trademark of Ericsson. And then I had the chance to join Verizon, which was not really my plan. My plan was, after leaving Ericsson, to work with the UN, and work with the Olympic moment, I wanted to give back to the sport, and I wanted to really see what I could do for the UN. I still am very engaged in the UN and the Sustainable Development Goals. But that was my idea. But then I had a chance to actually lighten up 5g with who I would say are the pioneers in the world of technology, which is Verizon. And I couldn't really resist that opportunity. So I ended up being the Chief Technology Officer of Verizon for a while. And then one thing led to another and then I became the CEO. That's basically the story.
Alan Fleischmann
That is amazing. It is true, you're coming at a time of enormous transformation, as I said earlier. Proved by this pandemic and everyone sheltering in place and being home, we couldn't do this without you. I mean, think about it: we couldn’t be having this conversation right now that we’re having, people couldn't connect so seamlessly. I mean, if there was ever a feeling that Verizon is indispensable, and that what you do every day is indispensable, it is certainly being shown now. And I think that comes with a certain amount of joy, because what was gonna pull you into the Olympic world, what was going to pull you to the UN World, was to serve with purpose. There's no question that you've got service and purpose in what you're doing now. As I'm thinking about that, is there a country outside the United States that had the strongest impact on you? When you were listening all of those countries, I'm sure there was some culture or country that may have had the biggest impact outside Sweden and outside the United States.
Hans Vestberg
No, I think it's a couple of moments in my life, which has been the very exciting. Early in my career, when working in Chile, I saw the mobile telephony coming there. Seeing how suddenly people, when you're connected, become part of the society. It was simple as that. And I saw that power, and it was just fantastic. Now, everyone is part of the site without their phone. And that was overwhelming. The second time. I don't remember if it was 2007, 2008, or 2009. It was when we had something called the Millennium Development Goals. That was the precursor to the Sustainable Development Goals. And I was in Africa. And I met some healthcare workers that used the mobile phone to get the information about diseases in villages, and how quickly they knew where the problem was. And I was so excited about, “Hey, guys, if you use mobility, broadband and cloud services, we can actually make this world a better place with an infrastructure that is sustainable.” Because we cannot do everything as I was brought up in Sweden, where you have a school, brick and mortar next door and a hospital next door. If we're going to do that route for the whole world, we're not going to have a chance to make it in time for everybody to have the same chance. So, when I saw that, I was so excited. And that's why I started working with the Sustainable Development Goals and thought about how the technology I’m representing is far more than only for my customers, it also has an impact for society that is so positive if we use it in the right way. So I think that's it. That's why I have dedicated time to the UN and talking about how mobility, broadband and cloud can be the 21st century’s infrastructure. In order to see that it doesn't matter where you're born and where you come from, you should be able to have the same healthcare, education and opportunity to create businesses or jobs, wherever you are. That's one of the things that we can do with this technology. And we just need to see that everybody has the chance to get it. That's my mission.
Alan Fleischmann
The two issues that it does connect to are sustainable goals and the issue of the environment. It's a very clean way of actually connecting the world. And then, obviously, the most vulnerable communities don't always have access, and you are a roadway to creating accessibility. Are you worried at all that the the former Millennium Development Goals–now Sustainable Development Goals–are being put on the side? It’s very understandable during the pandemic as we've had other things in front of us. But how do we make sure the UN's goals maintain their high priority and relevance?
Hans Vestberg
I don't think they're put aside, but just the gap to achieving them has become even harder. We have more people unemployed, there are going to be more people that are vulnerable, and the economic impact is coming. Not only the pandemic and the diseases are coming. So we were on a trajectory where it would be hard to really reach the target 2030. And it was the next 10 years where we really needed to go all in from the private sector and from the public sector. And I think we will have a setback, it's gonna be a lot harder to get there. But that doesn't mean we can lose the focus on it. It's just that we need to put more focus and more collaboration over the borders in order to make it. But, clearly, this pandemic, this economical crisis will set us back. It will mean more money needed and more contributions needed from our own society in order to achieve them. So that's my worry. But again, what I've seen the last 10 years of corporations and how they start to understand that they have responsibility outside of their own cooperation. I think that's positive. You can always say it could be more and greater. But the progress we have seen of cooperations, because they just need to be better corporate citizens, that is at least a positive. But I said it's going to be tougher.
Alan Fleischmann
Tougher, I guess, but just know that the mountain is higher to climb.
Hans Vestberg
Correct.
Alan Fleischmann
You embody what I call the “CEO Statesman.” I write about it, think about it a lot: there's nothing cocky about you. You have an enormous respect for others, and you're very approachable and you're showing it even more now during this period of accessibility with your own teams and employees. But you're also very respectful of others. And you're confident, as I said. So I'm curious, who are your role models besides your dad? Who was obviously your greatest role model? But, in business life, is there someone that you say, “That person lit the way for me?” Are there other people, even outside of business, that you would say to our listeners, “Know about them, read about them, understand their values.” Because they're all human. But they're worthy of us to pick up some of the traits that they that they represented because that's what makes life better.
Hans Vestberg
I've been lucky in my career, I have to say. I have been able to meet many big leaders of the world and big leaders of large corporations. I have had the chance to meet them and have conversations with them all. I learned from all of them and take a little bit of each of them, from what I think is great stuff about how they operate. If I meet a Fortune 500 CEO, I usually ask them, “How are you running your company? What is your governance? What is important to your purpose.” I cannot say if I have just one leader who I really think is the one. But the people I have met through my journey have all formulated how I operate, how I learn, and how I respect. I think it's really a lot of luck that I have been able to meet and work with all of these people and be partners to the most successful companies on earth, and having the chance to sit down one on one with all of them and being friends with them. And ultimately, that is when some of the best things come out.
Alan Fleischmann
And one of them is actually the former CEO of Ericsson, also. I heard you saying a little about Carl-Henric Svanberg, is that his name?
Hans Vestberg
He has a great leader. He was my boss for I think six, seven years. When I had a lot of ambitions and a lot of drive, he was a very calm and great leader. And there was one quote there. Because I was so ambitious, I proved to everyone that I was a quick problem solver. And sometimes it came out that I tried to tell them that I was smarter as well. And he always asked me, “Do you want to climb in your career and come up?” And I said, “Yeah.” Well he said, “Okay, I can tell you, that will never happen. Because your colleagues don't like you.” I remember that–that was many years ago. And then I realized that it's not only by helping the people reporting to me and my boss, it's equally important for me to see that my colleagues are successful as well because that's part of the team. And I think that was very helpful. There are many things that he has told me about, but that usually is what comes to my mind, how he steered on my carrier. And this was very early, probably 25 years ago.
Alan Fleischmann
Wow, that's amazing. Are there any books, or any poets, or any thought leaders that you track or you have read that have had an impact on you that you'd want to share? Even if they're Swedish and not even in English? I’m curious.
Hans Vestberg
So this is a little bit of an awkward question. I usually answer like this: I don't read many books, basically no books. I have fantastic people I meet every day. And I get their experience from them. And I have gathered a super diverse team around me, that is reporting to me, but also a set of people externally that I tap into and talk to all the time. And instead of me reading all the books, I can tell that they read a lot of books and they are helping me where I'm going. So I have decided, with the time I have, I'm not the book guy. But I have really intellectual people around me that have all these attributes. And again, it comes back to leadership. The leadership is based on three roles. Number one: self leadership. You need to know yourself. I am good at certain thing, I'm not so good at other things. That's when you start your leadership, then you know who you're going to recruit in your diversity. You need the opposite. I mean, having 14 people like me or 10 people like me leading Verizon probably is not a really good idea. That would be bad! So that's where leadership starts. Secondly, you lead with people around you. Up, below, and on the sides, what Carl-Henric Svanberg, for example, told me. That's where you're really a leader. And the third level of leadership is when you spend time on the right things. That’s the thought leadership, the strategic leadership. If you do all those three right, that's when you really are a good leader. But it starts with yourself. And that's why it's a little bit awkward answer to say, “No, I don't read books.” I understand that I'm not the best guy to sit, read books, and come up with, “wow, that was great.” But I have people around me that are really good at it, and they can do it. So you need to find the strengths and weaknesses of people and teams. That is what’s your job.
Alan Fleischmann
Well, if I describe you, I would describe you as having an artful expertise in collecting people. I mean, I know some of the people in your team and they're among the very, very best. I know, Laura and I know Jim. You attract loyalty and devotion. I love what you just said. And I wanted to get it on notice– you describe yourself as picking people that are not like you. And I think the tendency of most people is to find someone just like themselves. Because they're comfortable with that. They think, “If only I could scale more of myself, I could make a bigger difference.” And what you're saying is that you’ve got to know yourself. You got to figure out what you're good at and what you're less good at and say, “Okay, let me get the people that can fill that void.” That's a huge statement, actually.
Hans Vestberg
What I'm really good at is leading organizations and people. I need to train myself to be better on that every day. If I would be a marketeer or a super engineer, I would put all of my time into fortifying that. I'm trying to fortify my leadership every day I come to work. How can I be a better leader? So I spend time on that. “How do I lead what I'm really good at, etc.” I'm a little bit nerdy, because I want to really be better personally as a leader. The one thing that is important to me, I know that one of the strengths I have is that I empower and that I give energy to people–I get them to rally and move on. That means that I need people 24/7 in different constituencies. They need to have a good perception of how I lead and why I give energy. So I started 10 years ago with my mood tracker. So I tracked every day from zero to 10, the day after. So tomorrow morning, I want to rate this day between zero and 10. If I'm between four to eight, I give that energy, I really feel good. If I'm on nine to 10, I probably have too much energy, so people get tired on me. But to bonus if I'm between zero and two, I'm not really executing on the strength of me as a leader. And we all have bad days. So of course I have days when I have zero, one, and I don't have solutions. But then I know that if I come down to that I'm not the guy that is giving the strength that I have as a leader. So I want to share that diagram and shared it the last week: my mood indicator for 2019. So people know, I have ups and downs as any leader. But as I decided that my strength is the energy and the empowerment, I need to see that I bring myself out of those low points. And I know I can even forecast when I'm on my way down how I can move it up. But again, that's my model for fortifying my leadership and everybody's different. It starts from me as a person. Because if I know myself and my leadership, I can actually improve it.
Alan Fleischmann
Do you mark it down every day in an app?
Hans Vestberg
Yes. In the morning every day. I have a spreadsheet that now is 10 year long. And every day I put a zero to 10 on how the day was before: how I felt, if I had energy, if I felt great about what I'm doing.
Alan Fleischmann
And you choose to do it the day after rather than the night before?
Hans Vestberg
Yes, I need to sleep on it, at least. And then I put it in that space. But again, you need to think about your leadership as it's a profession. You don't become a leader because you have higher salary, you become a leader because you want to lead. And if you don't want to lead, there are other roles that we need in a company like Verizon, for example. You don't need to be a leader, but if you're going to lead, you need to take that seriously. Because you’re put in the hands of a lot of people who are depending on you. And that doesn't matter if you lead five people, or in my case 135,000 people.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. And I love the fact that you're very conscious of your energy and how your energy is such an important part of your style. I'm going to actually start tomorrow morning, like you do, monitoring my mood. I think that's an incredibly powerful idea because if you're seeing yourself on the asset, then that's great. And if it's too much, you’ve got to calibrate down, like you said. But if it's actually on the descent, if it's actually going down, and it's going on for a couple of days, then something needs to be dealt with.
Hans Vestberg
Yes.
Alan Fleischmann
That's very powerful. That's a really great tool that I hope people take into account too. I think this has been great. I wish we had more time, we only have 45 minutes. I promised you that we would maximize this time, and it only speaks to me that we need to have you back on, Hans. And there's a lot more to discuss. But the way you're handling the pandemic, the way you're leading when it comes to diversity and inclusivity, the way you're giving your time with the UN. And obviously, the role of 5g and Verizon during this time more than ever, is very humbling for those of us who follow you closely. So on behalf of the amazing leaders who listen, and the listeners of “Leadership Matters” on SiriusXM, I just read thank you for spending time with us on “Leadership Matters”. We'll be watching you closely, and we look forward to having you back. Thank you.
