Jane Goodall, Part 2
Primatologist, Founder of the Jane Goodall Institute
I think part of leadership, certainly in a situation of war, is courage … People look up to them and therefore are inspired by them.
Summary
In this episode of Leadership Matters, Alan is joined for the second time by renowned primatologist, Dr. Jane Goodall. Dr. Goodall is a globally recognized researcher, author, and conservationist who has played a pioneering role in the creation of the field of primatology. Over the course of her decades-long career, she has tirelessly fought to deepen our understanding of the natural world and our place in it.
The episode includes discussion of Jane’s upbringing, her advocacy methods over the years, and the impressive impact of the Jane Goodall Institute. Alan also speaks to Dr. Goodall about her most recent book, The Book of Hope, and the legacy she’s hoping to leave behind.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
Guest Bio
Jane Goodall is a legendary scientist, conservationist, and humanitarian whose groundbreaking discoveries shaped our understanding of what it is to be human.
In the 1960s, with no formal academic training, Jane Goodall ventured into the forests of what is now Gombe Stream National Park in Tanzania, to observe chimpanzees in the wild. During her time there, she made several observations about chimpanzee behavior that challenged conventional scientific theories held at the time, including that chimpanzees are omnivores, not herbivores; chimpanzees make and use tools; and chimpanzees have complex social interactions. These insights altered the way we understood our place in the natural order and Jane’s work opened doors for other women in science. Although Jane stopped doing fieldwork in 1986, she is still hard at work today, traveling approximately 300 days a year, raising awareness and money to protect the chimpanzees and their habitat through her nonprofit organization, the Jane Goodall Institute (JGI), and JGI’s youth program, Roots & Shoots.
Clips from this Episode
On her childhood during World War II and President Zelensky's leadership in Ukraine.
On the fragile nature of our ecosystem, and the potential benefits of technology.
Episode Transcription
Alan Fleischmann
You're listening to “Leadership Matters” on SiriusXM. I am your host, Alan Fleischmann. I'm here with a very dear friend, who is among the world's leading voices on issues not just about animal rights and environmental protection, but on hope, resolve, and resilience, and how we can actually be better human beings and treat our world better.
Dr. Jane Goodall is a globally recognized researcher, author, and conservationist who has played a pioneering role in the creation of the field of primatology. Over a career spanning more than six decades, Jane has tirelessly fought to deepen our understanding of the natural world and our place in it. As the founder of the Jane Goodall Institute, she has been a leading voice in the environmental movement and garnered more achievements than I could hope to list. She has been a lifelong source of inspiration and hope for myself, for my family, and for millions and millions of others around the globe. In her second appearance on “Leadership Matters,” I'm hoping to speak to Jane about the elements of her life and leadership that we were not previously able to talk about. How her early career has influenced her even today, and the advice that she has for leaders who want to do better for not just the environment, but for communities around the world.
Jane, welcome back. I am so glad that you're here. It's not easy not to be in the same room with you, but I'm thrilled that we can do this over Zoom. There is no introduction of you that ever does you justice, candidly. I will say this, when I mention to anybody that I I’m having you back on the show — in this time that is so difficult, so uncertain and so stressful, on the health side and on the geopolitical side — you make people smile because they know there's somebody out there fighting for them and with them. And for that I'm eternally grateful. Welcome.
Jane Goodall
Thank you, Alan, I'm sad we can't be together. Right now, if we were together, we'd be wearing masks. So at least we can see each other's faces.
Alan Fleischmann
I want to talk about you, your resolve, your fierceness, and I would argue, your fearlessness, but I know you fear things for others, so I can't say it's without fear. But you turn that into action. You turn that into hope.
I think of your mother, this extraordinary person in your life who said that you could do anything. When you imagined your life at a time when frankly, there were no role models, your mother said you could. I have got to imagine when you're thinking about all that’s happening in the world right now, you lived through World War II and your family did. You must be reflecting on that period, and maybe you also hear your mother's voice.
Jane Goodall
Well, I was only a child in World War II, but I still vividly remember. American troops came and they were stationed with their tanks along our road on their way to France, where most of them were killed. We had bombs falling and people we knew were killed. We had to spend nights in an air raid shelter. We’re now having this awful feeling: Could there be World War III because of Ukraine and Putin?
It seems at first that there is no hope for Ukraine with the might of the Russian army, but when I think back to World War II, there was about a year when Britain stood alone. The rest of Europe was either defeated or had capitulated, like France. We were not prepared for war. We had no proper army, no proper navy, but we had brave young men going up in their fighter planes, and we had Churchill. I think but for Churchill, we would have been invaded. Churchill had that amazing part, he was a real wartime leader, and I think there's a difference. He was a wartime leader. He inspired the British people with a spirit that said, we will not give up, we will not be defeated, we will fight them on the beaches, we will fight them in the woods, et cetera. He was heard, as an aside to one of his friends, say, “we'll fight them with the ends of broken bottles, because that's all we bloody got.”
I was interested that both President Zelensky in Ukraine and the previous president, both quoted Churchill. They both have relied on that spirit and I think it's helping them cope with what seems a totally hopeless situation. We just have to pray and hope that somehow they will prevail. They must.
Alan Fleischmann
They must prevail and the Churchill imagery, I'm sure, is in the minds of Ukrainians right now. That individual people need to show and muster their own courage, but it must be so frightening.
Jane Goodall
I think part of leadership, certainly in a situation of war, is courage. Churchill went and visited the people in the Blitz when London was being bombed to smithereens. President Zelensky was offered refuge in America, but he said no, I will stay with my people. That’s the kind of courage that makes a leader. People look up to them and therefore are inspired by them.
Alan Fleischmann
There’s this great Mandela quote: “Courage is not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it.” I think right now people are fearful. I think right now, all the things that we thought may have been sacred are being challenged. Whether it's COVID and health issues that seem to be borderless, and even when we’re talking about the potential of a world war again, the world is rallying as if there are no borders.
That’s something Jane, you've been talking about, for a long time. Environment protection, our natural species, our brothers and sisters in the animal kingdom, how there are no borders either. We can’t look at them as if there are borders. Today, you would think we'd be in a moment of profound understanding, and empathy, and respect coming out of what we just did the last two years. So it's probably even more shocking that we're dealing with a war on the tail end of a pandemic when you consider that the borders should be inconsequential.
Jane Goodall
Yes, and I think one thing is that disaster does tend to break down borders, it does tend to bring people together, and it does bring out the best in people. What I have been thinking about recently: you get to activate the amazing courage in war. After hurricanes in Ukraine right now, you look up to these incredibly brave people risking their lives, and you realize, almost everybody would show courage if they were put to the test, but so often, they're not. So they don't even know the kind of courage that they have.
Alan Fleischmann
And the kind of courage that they're demonstrating just by staying where they are, and not leaving in some cases. I don't blame the ones who have left, especially those who have children, but the idea that they're there, and standing like you describe Churchill, is pretty extraordinary. Are you hopeful?
Jane Goodall
Am I hopeful? Well, I am hopeful because of my World War II experiences. Yes, I am. I'm hopeful because I think that this situation, with Ukraine and Russia, has, for example, pulled NATO together. NATO was crumbling and there was talk of divisions, but I think the threat is stronger.
There’s one thing that I fear right now, and that is, after World War II, we hated the Germans. The sound of the German voice made you shiver, it was terrible because of what we'd been through. When a German family wanted somebody to go and help their children speak good English, Mom let me go. I was only 18, and a very young 18, but she let me go because she wanted me to understand that just because you're German, doesn't mean you're a Nazi. In fact, the resistance movement in Germany was incredibly courageous. That’s what I fear, that we're going to damn all Russians because of Putin, and it's not true. There are thousands and thousands of Russians actually protesting, and thousands more would if they hadn't been blindsided by the fake news that Putin has been putting out.
I'm delighted to see, and hopeful too, that America and Ukraine have got together with their intelligence people, these amazing computer people who can hack into systems, to try and destroy Putin's false news.
Alan Fleischmann
I think that's the thing. I totally agree with you that this is not the Russian people's war. This is one man's war and when you think about how stunning that is, it goes back to your recollections about World War II. How one person can make a difference in a good way, the way Churchill did, and how one person can just destroy us, like a Hitler or modern day…
Jane Goodall
Putin. Putin or a Napoleon. We can go through history, there's plenty of individuals who've done bad, but there are also amazing individuals who've done good.
It's strange, isn't it Alan? We seem to be so divided. There’s this amazing, compassionate, loving, altruistic side, then there's the dark, almost evil side. We see it in the chimpanzees too. That's what's extraordinary, we must have brought these two sides of our personality from six million years ago.
Alan Fleischmann
Tell us a little bit about that, because the film that was done on your journey and your life by National Geographic is truly one of the great films of our time. I was there with you at the premiere at the Hollywood Bowl. I have watched that film so many times I couldn't even count. Just a description of the courage you undertook, you went out, you broke barriers, you went to places that nobody had ever been. You certainly didn't have role models, certainly not women role models that were out there doing what you did. Is that resolve and that experience of you as a young Jane? Does that become part of you as you're trying to rally, not just for yourself, but you rally for millions of others? Is that what you pull it from, do you draw from that time?
Jane Goodall
I don’t know. Watching that film, Jane, was very nostalgic. They were the best days of my life. Those chimpanzees are almost like a part of my family. I've watched it and I think, oh my goodness, that was such an amazing privilege. There were two other field studies, one in South Africa. Nobody else. it wasn't male dominated, it wasn't anybody dominated. It was brand new territory. Wasn’t I lucky to be the one to go into that new territory?
When people say, “oh, you were so brave, what courage!” No, that was my dream from when I was 10. The one who had courage was my mother. The British authorities wouldn't allow me to go alone. Mum volunteered to come for four months. I was in the hills each day looking for the chimps, she was left down in the camp. We had an old ex-army tent to get the air in, you rolled up the sides and tied it, no nice sewn-in groundsheet. In came the air, but also the snakes and spiders and the scorpions. The baboons with their big canine teeth were trying to raid the food, because they're very opportunistic. The cook that we had, a wonderful cook, but he found some lovely alcoholic brew, and half the time it was a little bit tipsy. So Mum was the courageous one.
Alan Fleischmann
But she was courageous also, because it wasn't her dream. It was your dream. But what an incredible example of love, because she really wanted you to follow your dream and she knew you couldn't follow your dream unless she came with you.
Jane Goodall
It points to something. It’s terribly important for parents to support your child. They may be wanting to do something that you think would be much better if they didn't do that. 10 to one, if they're very young, they'll change, because they’re kids. Little boys don't want to go on being engine drivers. Supporting a child in what they want to do, and not pushing them to do what you think they ought to do, is really important because it gives you that self confidence. That’s really important.
Alan Fleischmann
Knowing that they're actually living up to their incredible promise and potential. When I think of all the work that you've done, and obviously the film captures the groundbreaking work that you've done as a scientist. We know so much about who we are by the work that you did. But it's also about young people, and the enormous movement that you created.
When you started to come out in public more, and it was more like the mid to late ’80s, people started seeing you at major gatherings as a speaker and you started to illuminate the need for us to focus on climate issues and human rights issues, frankly, around the animal kingdom. Young people started to rally. You actually managed to create, through Roots and Shoots, in countries all over the world, a movement of how they themselves can make a difference. How they themselves can create their own initiatives and projects. So when I think of what you did when you were younger, and then I think about your impact today, there's a lot in between. I think about how young people have been rallying around your message of hope and your message of action.
Jane Goodall
Well a lot of young people and older people write to me and thank me, because they say, “you taught me: because you did it, I can do it, too.”
That's great, but the reason I began Roots and Shoots was I was meeting, even way back in the late ’80s, young people who had already lost hope because of the environmental situation and the social situation. That was in countries around the world. They were mostly in high school or university, and some people out in their first jobs. They were either depressed, angry, or mostly just apathetic, not seeming to care. When I started talking to them, “Well, why do you feel like this?” “Well, our future’s compromised, and there's nothing we can do about it.” Well, we've compromised that future 100%, we’ve been stealing it, probably since the Industrial Revolution. But is it too late to do something? No, there’s this window of time. I'm totally sure.
Luckily, there are some climate scientists who agree, it's not just me and it's not just wishful thinking. And so I began Roots and Shoots with 12 high school students in Tanzania who were concerned not just about the environment, but they were worried about street children with no homes, they were worried about the treatment of stray dogs, they were worried about the illegal dynamite fishing that was destroying the coral reef, they were worried about all kinds of different things. So I told them to get their friends together, and that's when Roots and Shoots began with its main message: every single one of us makes an impact on the planet every single day and we can choose what difference we make.
Alan Fleischmann
I've had the blessing of being on the board of the Jane Goodall Institute, and your Legacy Foundation. One of the things that makes me so inspired is when I hear stories about letters that you've written, or people that you've met around the world, who are now in senior positions of influence, who will say that, whether they're in China or probably in Russia, one of their great moments of influence was being involved in Shoots as a young person.
Jane Goodall
We don't preach values to them, but they take the values they acquired in the program. They get to choose their projects, one for animals, one for people, one for the environment, we bring them together as much as possible, from different countries, usually virtually. But they get to understand that much more important than the color of your skin, your language, your country or religion — all of that is not as important as the fact that we’re all human beings, we all bleed, we all laugh, we all cry. That’s something they bring with them.
I think one of the main qualities is, of course, compassion, but also respect. People speak of toleration, and I hate that word. If you tolerate something, you don't really tolerate it. But if you respect, you don't have to always agree with everything, but you respect the other person. And as my mother used to say to me, “if you meet someone you don't agree with, listen to them, you may learn something you didn't know before.” And only if you, at the end of it, believe you're righter than they are, you must have the courage of your conviction.
But how do you try and change somebody who's clearly thinking wrong, like people who deny climate change? You have to reach the heart. It's no good battling away at the head, it’s no good blinding them with statistics, it’s no good telling them they're wrong and they should be doing something different. You've got to reach the heart and they've got to change from within. I do that by telling stories.
Alan Fleischmann
Your stories are amazingly inspiring. I love what you just said. There are people in the world that are hateful and bigoted, they're just bigots, they’re just horrible people. They exist. You don’t spend your time trying to change them. There are people in the world who are ignorant and there are people in the world who are indifferent.
I have another group that I talked to you about once, which is the group that I call the uncomfortable people, who actually do care, but they don't know what to say and what to do. If you give them something, language, if you give them purpose and opportunity, they will jump forward.
When I look at your life, you focus on the ignorant, you focus on the indifferent to inspire them, and you your focus on the people who are uncomfortable, because you tell stories and you show examples and then you create initiatives like Shoots where you give people an opportunity to take their best selves and turn into action. You make hope become a verb by actually doing something. I think that's what makes you so different as a leader, you're trying to figure out a way to inspire, to enlighten, and then to activate. We don't always spend the time to do that anymore, do we?
Jane Goodall
No it’s true, but you know how I think of hope now. People say, how can you have hope? Well, hope isn't just wishful thinking. So I think the human species right now, we're at the mouth of a very long and very dark tunnel. Right at the end of that tunnel, there's a little star shining hope. Well, it's no good sitting at the mouth of the tunnel and saying I hope that star comes here. We've got to roll up our sleeves, as the Bible says, and I love this expression, “gird your loins.” I’m not totally sure what it means, but anyway…
Alan Fleischmann
It sounds good.
Jane Goodall
Sounds lovely. So gird your loins, and you want to crawl under, climb over, work your way around all the obstacles like climate change, like loss of biodiversity, like overpopulation. Because that's a problem we have to face, like poverty — because if you're poor, you destroy the environment in order to survive, or buy the cheapest food and can’t afford to ask whether it hurts the environment or is cruel to animals, or cheap because of unfair labor. So we've got to get together in that tunnel to help each other along. Then if we do get together, we'll reach that star.
Alan Fleischmann
So everybody come together with a common purpose, and then individually gather to fight and go towards that star, and reach that star.
Jane Goodall
We will and we must reach the star, we must, otherwise we're doomed. So we have to. But you know, the other thing, and it’s terribly important, that I try and spread awareness about all the time, is that we are part of the natural world. We're not separate from it. Even if we live in the middle of a city, every breath of air we take, every sip of water, comes from the natural world. We depend on it. What we depend on is healthy ecosystems.
If you think of an ecosystem as a beautiful tapestry, a living tapestry of different plant and animal species, and they’re all dependent on each other, if one of them becomes extinct in that ecosystem, it's like pulling a thread from the tapestry. If you pull enough threads, the tapestry hangs in tatters and the ecosystem collapses. So this is why it's so urgent that we work together to protect the environment, to slow down climate change and to slow down loss of biodiversity and to turn things around.
Alan Fleischmann
You think technology could be the answer to you?
Jane Goodall
Yes. Definitely.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, I think so too.
Jane Goodall
It is part of the answer, and the other part is our own lives. What can we do as individuals? How can we make a lighter ecological footprint? How can we treat people better, respect them more so that we all get together and realize we are all human beings and we need to get together if we want a future for our species?
Alan Fleischmann
That's the same approach we need to have when it comes to making democracy and capitalism work. Because right now, neither are accessible to many.
There are bubbles where people are in one bubble or another. You’re all about how to create uncommon tables, bringing people together who normally wouldn't come together. I love your point about respect, because at the end of the day, it's not about tolerance. Tolerance means turning your head and holding your nose. “I don't like you but I'm not going to push back on you” is very different from “I want to understand you and I do respect you, even if we don't agree.” I wish that's what we were doing in regards to some of the challenges right now in Ukraine. I wish we’d be sitting at the table and arguing versus sacrificing so many lives.
Jane Goodall
They do have peace talks going on, but they don't seem to have gone very far. Not very helpful, are they?
Alan Fleischmann
No, they're not. And I kind of think that in the case of some of the people on the other side, they see conversations around peace talks as a weakness, not a strength. It’s like the bully in the yard who actually believes that as long as there's fierce and physical force, they can prevail. I kind of hoped we were going beyond that, but you are hopeful, or you at least create an opportunity for us to be hopeful, which I'm so grateful for, and you write about it a lot. You talk about it a lot, in a way that actually turns to action and makes us understand that each one of us has a role to play.
Jane Goodall
Each one of us matters. This thing about poverty, that's incredibly important. One time Gombe was part of a huge forest, then 20 years later when I began, it was a little island of forests, bare hills all around it. More people living there than the land could support, too poor to buy food from elsewhere, farmland being overused and then infertile, struggling to survive.
That’s when it hit me. If we don't help them find ways of living without cutting down the trees to make some money or to get new land to grow food on, then we can't save chimps, forests, or anything else. So JGI began the TACARE program. It’s worked so well. It’s very holistic, everything from creating new land without artificial chemical fertilizers and pesticides, scholarships for girls, and microcredit opportunities based on Muhammad Yunus’ Grameen Bank, he is one of my heroes.
Eventually, through introducing technology, which, as you say, is really important, they've learned how to use things like smartphones, they're monitoring the health of their own forests, they’ve got the tools to conserve the environment in their hands. We worked with them from the beginning and that's now in six different countries where we work with chimps. I think there are chimps and forests now that wouldn't have been there but for us. All these bare hills around Gombe have gone, the trees are back because nature is so resilient. That's a great reason for hope.
Alan Fleischmann
It's amazing. You also believe in planting trees.
Jane Goodall
We do indeed believe in planting trees.
Alan Fleischmann
That obviously has a huge effect for all of us, the creatures we love and our brothers and sisters as human beings as well, and it is actually impactful and empowers us as citizens of the world as well.
What social practices that we can take on would you recommend?
Jane Goodall
Well, I'm vegan now. I became a vegetarian when I learned about factory farming, because of ethics. We now know, thanks to chimps opening the door to science, we're not the only beings with personality, mind and emotion. That’s led people to examine these attributes in other animals.
Have you seen My Octopus Teacher? It's on Netflix, look it up. Octopuses are incredibly intelligent and their brains are not like ours. They do have a sort of little central brain, but they have brains in all eight arms. Each arm can work independently. There are unbelievably intelligent animals, like crows, parrots, and rats. It’s mind blowing when you think of how science used to think of animals as weird things. So knowing that cows and especially pigs understand what's going on, that they can feel fear and pain, I stopped eating meat because of that.
But now knowing that in intensive farming, billions of animals are crowded in these horrible conditions. Huge areas of land cleared to grow the grain to feed them, masses of fossil fuels for all the huge machinery, water that’s so scarce in some places, lots of it used to change plant animal proteins, and then they all produce methane gas in their digestion. We all do — we try not to do it in public — but that's one of the major releases of methane gas that there is.
Alan Fleischmann
It’s the cows in the world, and pigs probably.
Jane Goodall
Yes pigs as well. So they belch, as well as whatever word you want to use for what comes out the other end.
Alan Fleischmann
I understand. But that's amazing, I think you were vegetarian, probably only because you traveled so much when you did, and you needed to have maybe a piece of cheese or an egg when you needed it because you couldn't get access elsewhere. But you've been trying to be vegan for a long time.
Jane Goodall
Now vegan cooking is common, it’s all over the place. I became vegan because I learned about the horrible conditions of dairy cows, and of hens and other poultry that are egg layers. It's so cruel.
Alan Fleischmann
My daughters, Laura Julia and Talia, are, as you know, both vegans. They've been since they were three and five. And it's been all about animals. It started off because they could not understand how you could love an animal and then eat an animal. And they've never turned back — every once in a while, I think they’ve ignored a cupcake, maybe with eggs in there or not. But for most of the food they have.
Jane Goodall
One good thing about it, Alan, is… say you become a vegan, and you just yearn for a little bit of something, like a cupcake or whatever it is. If you don't eat it, that makes you feel so pleased with yourself. And it's a good feeling.
Alan Fleischmann
It further empowers you.
Jane Goodall
Yes, it does empower you.
Alan Fleischmann
It reminds you why, as well.
I have a question for you. We have a lot of people on here who are CEOs, and we have a lot of folks in the audience that listen, who are really a part of “Leadership Matters,” who are either CEOs or aspiring leaders in the private sector, public sector, and civil society. They're up-and-coming leaders looking for inspiration and advice. But I know companies around the world have begun to really understand ESG and they're talking about it — the environmental impact, or social impact, or governance impact. Are you feeling more optimistic that that's real, when you hear things about ESG and stakeholder capitalism? Are you feeling like it could be a trend, or do you think it actually will be lasting? And what advice would you have?
Jane Goodall
I think there are some key people who really mean it, who really are passionate and invested in it. People like Paul Polman with his book Net Positive — which I think is a wonderful book, and it's full of stories. I love it. And Paul Polman is on the Legacy Council along with you.
So, I was talking to the CEO of a big corporation the other day who's in Singapore. I forget his corporation — whatever it was, it doesn't matter. And he said, “Jane, for the last eight years, I have been working really hard to make my whole business from start to finish more ethical: the supply chain, making sure the wages are right and fair, making sure we don't harm the environment, working the local communities, caring about our customers wanting to be fair.” And he said there were three reasons. “One, I saw the writing on the wall, that in some places we’re using up finite natural resources faster than nature can replenish them. Two, consumer pressure. People are beginning to understand the horrible harm we're doing to this planet and they are demanding products that are made ethically.” But he said, “what really tipped the balance for me was my little girl coming back from school about eight years ago when she was about eight years old. And she said, ‘Daddy, they're telling me that what you're doing is hurting the planet. That's not true, is it Daddy? Because it's my planet.’” That reached the heart.
So I think as business leaders become more aware, the other good thing is that their shareholders are becoming more aware. It's absurd that we can have unlimited economic development the way we're doing it now, on a planet with finite natural resources and a growing population. It's going to be the end of us, we have got to change.
Alan Fleischmann
And during the pandemic, where people were not traveling as much and were hunkered down, we saw a lot of incredibly horrible social injustice going on in the world as well. People started to realize this is urgent, and you saw, even in places where pollution was almost seen as inevitable, it started clearing up. So that gave hope. That has to be a standard that we have to be sensitive to.
Jane Goodall
Yep, absolutely. I think some people, like from cities in India and China, had never looked up and seen bright stars in the sky at night. They'd never breathed clean air. And even though they may have come from regimes where the pollution will return, they have a longing in them that wasn't there before. And they will impart that to their children, and things will change.
Alan Fleischmann
Who are people out there that you would advise people to read about and to follow? I always say, that they're not many heroes out there. And we're all imperfect; we don't want to encourage people to have to be raised to a standard where they're seen as perfect, only to be brought down. But there are courageous people doing extraordinary work in leadership positions around the world. You mentioned Paul Polman. He's an extraordinary example of someone who has taken his role as a CEO very seriously. Who else out there would you say are people that you should go to their podcasts, or read their books, or follow what they're saying and doing?
Jane Goodall
Goodness, I think you could probably give more examples of that than me. Because I'm so busy, I don't have time to look at other people's podcasts or trying to keep up with things. But it's pretty difficult.
You know Muhammad Yunus, who I've already mentioned. In India, there’s Vandana Shiva. But really and truly, it’s Young Roots and Shoots. The ones who are just in university, who are the leaders of the future. They are fantastic, and they give me so much hope. They're determined, they're passionate, they're sometimes courageous. And it's the only advantage I see of the growing number of people on the planet. There's enough people that leaders will spring up to tackle all the different problems that are in that tunnel. There's enough of us to tackle them. But we do have to tackle our growing population. Women's education is so important in that respect.
Alan Fleischmann
What would be the solution to that? That sounds like one right there.
Jane Goodall
Yeah, I think so. Because, everywhere all around the world, I'm told — I haven't got the statistics — but everywhere where women's education goes up, family size tends to drop. Certainly around Gombe, where we began this program.
When I first arrived in 1960, the average family size per woman — because some men had four wives — was 8 to 10. But now they've realized that a way out of poverty is a good education for their children. They can't afford to educate 8 or 10. So already, if you ask them, they’ll say the ideal is three or four, which is too many. But we're getting there.
The question with all of this is time. How big is this window of time? We don't know. We can't predict everything, with the climate changing faster than people predicted. We never thought there'd be this war with Ukraine. And think of the amount of emissions that that war is releasing into the atmosphere. It's horrible.
Alan Fleischmann
The devastation… I think we're realizing that it's urgent. As you said, you're hopeful if we take action and meet that urgency. But if we don't, the window is actually quite finite. It is limited.
Jane Goodall
It is. I found in Tanzania, we tried to bring groups of young people through Roots and Shoots together to share their projects. And I found at the end of it, they were getting together as a group and saying, “together we can change the world.” And I said, yeah, we can. We know what to do, we know what we should do. Do we have the will to do it? Will we do it? So now at the end they say, “together we can, together we will.”
When I was at Davos two years ago, I don't know if you were in that room, where there were all these business leaders and people. And at the end of my little 10 minute talk, I said that, and I said, “if we all agree, can we all do it together?” So I started again, and it was a pathetic response. And I said, “that is a really pathetic response. Clearly, you don't care. Should we try once more?” And they all leapt to their feet.
And there was one of these political reporters that spoke to me afterwards. He said, “Jane, I had tears in my eyes. I never would have imagined that would happen at Davos with those people.”
Alan Fleischmann
Well, I've been to Davos with you, and you are a rock star there. And people don't always remember or realize… they think it's a gathering of elite only. What it really is, it's a gathering of people who are either harnessing power, or want others to deliver on the power that they have. But it's an extraordinary opportunity to make a difference.
But you're you're very much a rock star there. People were all coming at you at all points. And you spoke to all the different communities, to the young people, and you spoke to leaders and you challenged them. And you also obviously shared that urgency. We need people who have the power to influence to take that power and influence.
Jane Goodall
And we need the… as we grow the Roots and Shoots movement, then the young people really are making an impact on their parents.
Alan Fleischmann
And have the parents actually start becoming activists as well. Which is so important.
One of the things I… your papers from over the years, the library of the work that you’ve done. They're at Arizona State University, aren't they?
Jane Goodall
That’s right. It’s all the Gombe data, actually.
Alan Fleischmann
Yep. I think there's an amazing impact from what you've collected and managed to save, from which we can learn. Is there a next book in you? Are there things that you've that you've kept over the years that you still want to get out there, so people can learn from the journey that you've been on? That we can turn that into a blueprint going forward?
Jane Goodall
Well, I don't know. I mean, I've done so many books now that I sort of feel I'm booked out. This last one, The Book of Hope, really tried to pull together all the reasons why we need to be hopeful. Because if we lose hope, we don't take action, it’s as simple as that. We become apathetic. So we we've got to boost hope and give reasons for hope. Even in the worst of times.
I thought a collection of stories — meaningful, impactful stories that have happened to me in my life — might be kind of helpful. At least it would be fun, and it wouldn't be that much effort for me.
Alan Fleischmann
Is there any one story right now that you'd love to share? One that keeps you hopeful?
Jane Goodall
Well, I've got a symbolic story for Roots and Shoots, which I love. And especially now, when we are in the middle of a war. And that's the first group that was founded, in the Democratic Republic of Congo. And a wonderful mentor, Dario. The kids came to him, and they were a group of fifteen, between sort of 8 and 12. They had seen a hill in the distance, they pointed it out to him and said, “we were told that that hill used to be covered with forest. And now it's mostly bare, it used to be a sacred hill, so we want to put the trees back.”
Well, Dario realized that it was a project much too big. They didn't really realize how big the hill was, but he didn't want to dampen them. So he went to his forester friend and got some saplings for them. And he had to go to the resident militia, because you know, this is the area where all the minerals are and there is continual fighting. And the commander in chief said, “Well, it seems stupid idea. It's not possible. I suppose there's no harm in it, but I'll have to send soldiers with you.” So you imagine fifteen little kids, with their saplings and I suppose something to dig with, and four great big Congolese soldiers with AK-47s over their shoulders. And they walk and they walk, and they get to the hill, and the children are tired. They start trying to dig, but the ground is very hard. And the youngest little girl began to cry.
After about five minutes, one of the soldiers leaned his gun against the tree and went to help her. Within the next 10 minutes, all the soldiers had laid aside their guns and were helping to plant trees. And to me, this is just so symbolic. You know, it's, it's all about, we all want the same. And most of these soldiers, it's like saying all Germans are bad, or all Russians are bad. Most soldiers today are there either because they're conscripted in Russia or just because it's a job, something that they need to get money and to make a livelihood. They don't know what to do, so they go into the armed forces. I know many people who have written to me and said, “we wish we hadn't, we didn't realize it would lead to war.”
Alan Fleischmann
They were serving, and that was a form of serving. I think it's an amazing story. It's a beautiful story.
It also gets back to your whole idea of respecting other people and what they do, understanding that there's more to it than you realize. Which is pretty powerful, too. Could you tell us a little bit about JGI?
Jane Goodall
Well, the Jane Goodall Institute began in 1977 in the USA. We now have offices in 34 countries, I think — it keeps growing. During the pandemic, we got three brand new JDIs registered in their countries. One in Turkey, one in India — which is growing all across the country — and one in Israel. They all do Roots and Shoots.
And it's basically, we want to make the world a better place for people, animals, and the environment. That's our mission. And all of them do Roots and Shoots. If they can, they support our programs in Africa, which is studying and protecting chimps and other primates, protecting their habitat, working with local people to alleviate poverty, and inspiring the next generation. That's what it's all about.
Alan Fleischmann
I'd love it. JGI is doing such extraordinary work. You have a great leadership team, by the way, which I love.
Jane Goodall
Oh, yes. Now we've got the right people, finally.
Alan Fleischmann
I feel the same way. An amazing leader and an amazing team makes everything. It can make every dream real. And it's all about collaboration and partnership, sweat and inspiration.
And then there’s a Legacy Foundation also, which is really about, how do we create an enduring support for all these initiatives that you have? Because the work continues. We know, decades and decades from now, we will need the work to continue. And that's another place where you're investing your energy and time.
Jane Goodall
I need an endowment so that I know that everything I've worked for all my life won't come to an end just because I'm no longer there to raise money. Because, as you know, a lot of JGIs actually count on me to help them raise funds. We need to get beyond that.
It's not supposed to ever fund all the different JGIs; it’s just there to fill in a gap when something happens, like COVID, or to start up a new one, give them some money so they can employ a couple of people to help them raise their own funds — that sort of thing. To help Roots and Shoots in developing countries.
And you know, it's only now — which is bad timing with Ukraine, but I can't help it, it was just before Ukraine — we sort of set and organized to really start fundraising properly. But it was Marc Benioff of Salesforce who put $10 million into it, which is really an encouraging sign for other business leaders.
Alan Fleischmann
And such an endorsement of the work. It is so important, the work continues and needs to continue, with the idea of a rainy day fund. So that when challenging times happen, the work doesn't stop.
Jane Goodall
Yeah. And by the way, we've got many Roots and Shoots groups in countries where there isn't a JGI. I mean, Roots and Shoots is in some 65 countries now. And all ages; kindergarten, university, everything in between. We're getting staff of some major companies to form their own groups. We've got Roots and Shoots and some prisons, and in some senior citizen places.
Alan Fleischmann
That's amazing. What do you do for yourself personally? Because you give so much of your time. You’re in such demand, Jane. Do give yourself a moment to read a book,? I think you take walks, you’re a great hiker, but what do you do to actually make sure there's Jane time?
Jane Goodall
Well, in short: walks. My trouble is, the point of going for walks was to walk with my dog, and our dog now is 16, and he doesn't like walking. And walking on my own is kind of boring. But I still try and do a walk each day.
But recently I'm finding, I haven't got time to do a walk. But every day in the middle of the day, I take a minimum of 30 minutes, and I sit under the tree in the garden — because this is where I grew up — where I used to climb as a child. I can't climb the beech now because he's grown so tall. But anyway, I sit underneath, and I'm joined by a robin and a blackbird. And I sing to them and they sing to me. And it's really fascinating.
Alan Fleischmann
And it's the same ones every day.
Jane Goodall
Yes, because they have their territories. But in the spring, they brought their babies.
Alan Fleischmann
That's amazing. And is this the same tree that, when I think of the children's books and young Jane, there's you climbing the tree? That's amazing. And how is Mr. H? There you are.
I remember the very first time, when Talia was so little, that you came to our home. And you put Mr. H on the sofa in our library and walked away. And Talia was so little — she’s 15 now, but she was so tiny — and she pulled at me and she made me come down to her. She said, “Daddy, is that Mr. H? The real Mr. H?” And I said, yes it is. And then you overheard it and said “if you'd like to pick him up you can.” I’ll never forget her face, she almost fainted when she touched Mr. H and put him in her arms. He has been your companion for a long time.
Jane Goodall
Now it's been about 28 years. He's been to 61 countries and probably been touched by millions of people. I suppose in COVID he couldn't be touched, could he?
Anyway, he's a symbol of hope given to me by the inspirational Gary Horn, who went blind decided to become a magician. And he's also taught himself to paint and it's completely amazing. He’s an inspiration. You know, one of the sources of my hope in the indomitable human spirit.
Alan Fleischmann
And in the indomitable spirit of a young person as well.
You come up, Jane, in conversations all the time. We've had many people on this show who've been inspired by you. including the head of NIH at the time, a mutual friend of ours, who was here on the show as well. You've been a person who challenges everybody's norms, but you work with them when you do to take up that challenge. Is there any bit of advice you'd want to give to people right now? That you'd want to hold on to?
Jane Goodall
Well, I think the most important piece of advice I have, we've mentioned it already, is if you're talking to someone, and you think that perhaps what they're doing isn't good for the planet or society, don't be aggressive. Don't blame them. Don't cast them in a bad light. Give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they just haven't understood. Just reach out with a story, because that's the only way you get real change: to get people to want to change, to change from within. Otherwise, if you are bitter with them, they may give you lip service. They may agree just because they want to get rid of you, but they're not really going to change.
Alan Fleischmann
That's right. It sounds like, find the people that are going to join you in that change, get in that tunnel, reach for that star, and go there.
You've been listening to “Leadership Matters” on SiriusXM. I'm your host, Allen Fleischmann. I'm here with the indomitable and inspirational Dr. Jane Goodall, who is a dear friend— I consider a member of my family but more importantly, she has been fighting for all life, for every one of our families.
You are an inspiration. You don't slow down, thank goodness. Thank goodness, we need you, Jane. We really need you and your words matter. But you as a role model matters so much more, so thank you.