Suzanne Clark
President and CEO, U.S. Chamber of Commerce
We're a big, innovative country. The future belongs to people who are optimistic about our ability to solve problems with innovation.
Summary
As the head of the world’s largest and most diverse business association, Suzanne Clark has a unique perspective on the challenges and priorities of companies across the United States. In this episode of “Leadership Matters,” the President and CEO of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce joins Alan to discuss her career and advocacy on behalf of businesses large and small.
In their wide-ranging conversation, Alan and Suzanne discuss her serendipitous beginnings at the Chamber, the challenges of balancing work and parenting, and the importance of understanding the full ecosystem of businesses in the United States. Suzanne believes that businesses must “get louder and find real champions in both parties” who can advance the priorities necessary to overcome the extreme edges of American society and help create an economy that meets the needs of everyone.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
Business as a Calling: Work and the Examined Life, by Michael Novak
Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community, by Robert Putnam
Guest Bio
Suzanne Clark is president and chief executive officer of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, a director on two corporate boards, a former business owner, and an entrepreneur at heart.
Clark has led a multiyear effort to strengthen the Chamber’s well-known influence, advocacy, and impact, while modernizing its work and attracting new members from the fastest-growing and most innovative sectors of the U.S. economy. These efforts to invest in the Chamber’s future proved prescient when the COVID-19 pandemic hit in 2020, enabling the organization to quickly pivot to new ways of working and successfully advocate for businesses in the midst of the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression.
Clark has also helped drive the national conversation on issues central to managing and recovering from the pandemic through the U.S. Chamber Foundation’s Path Forward program. In interviews with dozens of thought leaders and experts such as Dr. Anthony Fauci, former CDC Director Dr. Robert Redfield, Bill and Melinda Gates, Carlyle Group Founder David Rubenstein, and former U.S. Surgeon General Jerome Adams, Path Forward has reached an audience of millions of viewers with practical information, insightful guidance, and forward-looking strategies.
In an era of divided government and partisan gridlock, the U.S. Chamber has been a bold leader in championing bipartisan solutions and building coalitions around the issues most important to the business community, including liability reform, workforce development, corporate governance, business-led climate solutions, and programs and policies to address inequality of opportunity.
Clark spearheaded efforts to dramatically increase support for small businesses through the creation of CO—, the Chamber’s award-winning digital home for small business. When the pandemic hit, the Chamber launched a massive mobilization to save America’s small businesses by proposing key policies included in the CARES Act, lobbying for and securing replenishment of the Paycheck Protection Program, producing dozens of practical guides used by millions of businesses, and creating the #SaveSmallBusiness grant program.
Clark’s commitment to free enterprise and understanding of the challenges facing America’s businesses stem from her experience creating and running a growing company. Prior to rejoining the U.S. Chamber in 2014, she acquired and led a prominent financial information boutique—Potomac Research Group. Before that, Clark was president of the National Journal Group (NJG), a premier provider of information, news, and analysis for Washington’s political and policy communities. Through 2010, Clark led NJG through a period of rapid digital transformation, resulting in record-level profits and multiple journalism awards.
Earlier in her career, Clark served in multiple leadership positions at the U.S. Chamber, including chief operating officer, and as chief of staff at a major transportation association.
Clark serves on the boards of two public companies and several nonprofit organizations. At AGCO, a Fortune 500 global leader in the design, manufacture, and distribution of agricultural equipment, she chairs the Compensation Committee and is a member of the Succession Committee. At TransUnion, a provider of global risk and credit information, she serves on the Audit and Cybersecurity committees.
Additionally, Clark serves on the board of The Economic Club of Washington, D.C., and So Others Might Eat (SOME), which helps the poor and homeless in the nation’s capital. She was named SOME’s Humanitarian of the Year in 2019. Other awards and recognition include Washingtonian magazine’s Most Powerful Women in Washington (2019), the National Association of Corporate Directors Directorship 100 honorees (2020), the Baldridge Foundation’s Award for Leadership Excellence (2021), and Washingtonian magazine’s inaugural Most Influential List (2021).
Carrying her passion for business and entrepreneurship into the classroom, Clark is a 2021 Spring Fellow at American University’s Sine Institute of Policy & Politics, where she leads a lecture series on the role of private sector job creation.
Clark earned a B.A., magna cum laude, and an M.B.A. from Georgetown University. She lives in Virginia with her husband and their daughter.
Clips from this Episode
On Biden's assumption of stagnant economy and the FTC's overreach.
On the importance of available opportunity for immigrant families.
On the luxury of work-life balance that many working families can't have.
On how "Wall Street and Washington speak different languages".
Episode Transcription
Alan Fleischmann
You're listening to “Leadership Matters” on SiriusXM and at leadershipmattersshow.com. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. Our guest today is one of the country's foremost leaders in the business community, someone who has built diverse coalitions in pursuit of a more prosperous nation.
Suzanne Clark is President and CEO of the US Chamber of Commerce, the world's largest and most diverse business association. A 100-year-old institution with a membership that includes large and small businesses across industries, and the Chamber works and advocates across a wide variety of issues and areas to help create jobs and grow the American economy. Suzanne's career has included top positions at a variety of world-class advocacy and analysis organizations, including the Chamber and the National Journal Group. She's also a business owner, having founded and led Potomac Research Group. Drawing on these experiences, Suzanne has sought to strengthen the Chamber's impact and attract new members from some of the fastest-growing sectors in the economy. I'm excited to have her join us today to discuss her life, her leadership, and the perspectives that she has gained from her unique insights into the priorities of business across our country.
Suzanne, welcome to “Leadership Matters.” I have been wanting to have you on the show for a while, and I'm so thrilled that you're joining us.
Suzanne Clark
Alan, you're so kind. I think I'd rather ask you a lot of questions on what you've learned from all these interviews. But I sure am delighted to join you.
Alan Fleischmann
We've had wonderful guests, and I know you will be among the best that we've had because your story is pretty amazing, and very inspiring.
I would love to start with a little bit about your early life. Tell us a little bit about your upbringing. What was life around the house like? I’d love to hear a little bit about the early years of your life.
Suzanne Clark
Well, my parents met at the University of Dayton. They got married and had me quite young. So my two brothers and I were all born in Dayton, Ohio. My parents were busy establishing careers and finishing their education, so I helped raise the boys. It was a boisterous household. When I was 11, we moved to outside of Philadelphia, with my dad's job. And then I came to DC to go to school and have never left. So it feels more like DC is my hometown than Dayton, Ohio. But don't tell the Dayton chamber that: I'm headed there next week to give a speech, and I’m the hometown girl.
Alan Fleischmann
Only after that will you bring it up. Did you did you get any exposure to entrepreneurship? You're an entrepreneur and a businessperson, you speak the language of our economy in many ways due to your experiences. Was that something you started to feel as a young kid growing up? Did you know what you wanted to do early on?
Suzanne Clark
It's interesting… it's a great question. Two things. One, I remember going on my first airplane ride when I was 8 years old to go see my grandparents in California. And then doing it again, when I was 11, by myself. And I remember thinking, “wow, there is a really big world out there and I want to go see it.” And sometimes when I'm doing too much business travel, I curse myself because I wasn't more careful what I wished for.
But those early trips, even just to see family, were really educating for me when I was 8. We went down from Southern California into Baja, Mexico, and again, just really spurred a desire to learn more about cultures and community, and see the big world that was out there. I don't know that I ever had a really specific career aspiration as much as a real learning goal.
Alan Fleischmann
When I think of you, I think of you as a leader — we'll get to that a little bit. You're very humble as you lead, there’s no arrogance in the way you approach things. And I think you'd come across with confidence. I think the secret to you, if I had to guess, is that you like people and you're very curious. So you ask a lot of questions and you connect with people, which allows the other person to unlock so much about themselves in your presence. It allows for creative thinking, team building, and coalition building. because as I said in my introduction of you, I think of you as somebody who has built extraordinarily diverse coalitions. I know that's a huge part of what the Chamber does as well, but I think that DNA of curiosity probably has helped you along the way.
Suzanne Clark
I think that's right. And I do like most people, and I want to hear their stories. And you too, Alan: You have interesting stories, interesting relatives. We're not very many generations away from immigrants, not very many generations away from poverty. Most Americans go back a generation or two to poverty, a generation or two to an immigrant story.
And so, you find the more you talk to people, you hear how they got here. And they remember who gave them the opportunity to go to school, or to start a business, or to have a job. And so, I think I had this early fascination with opportunity and where it came from, and hearing people's stories. Because most families remember that legend — remember that moment of opportunity.
Alan Fleischmann
I love the way you described that, actually — I've never heard it described that way. But you're right. One or two generations away from poverty is a huge part of the American story.
Suzanne Clark
There was an author, Novak, who wrote a book called Business as a Calling. The book was really about how business is a noble profession and can be a calling. It was the intro to that book where he really talked about, when you ask people their story, they don't go very far back into where opportunity was so key and how it came to them — through education, through a human being making a connection, et cetera. But he really stressed that business is a noble calling.
Alan Fleischmann
I’m going to write that down, actually. I’m going to order the book.
Suzanne Clark
Yeah. It connects human beings, it creates opportunity, it solves problems and innovates. It's an inspiring book, I think you'll really get something out of it.
Alan Fleischmann
That's terrific. I will get that book. We'll get to the Chamber later, but you also have an extraordinarily philanthropic arm of the Chamber with the Foundation, which I know you have been very involved in over many years. And obviously, as the CEO. But you really spent a lot of time building the foundation up. And I'm sure mentoring is a big part of that, it's a big part of the American Dream. And a big part of the business stories you were just referring to is that person, or persons, who said you can do this, who gives someone the confidence to overcome the risk of failure, which allows you to be the business leader entrepreneur that builds the business.
Suzanne Clark
You know, I think that's right. And I think it's also taking a risk once you are a manager or a leader to give people real feedback. When I was coming up in my early jobs, people were still pretty rough with their feedback. I think that's changed culturally, in ways that are really good — people are more careful of other people's feelings, more empathetic — but also ways that are bad, in the sense that I'm not sure today's young professionals get the same types of critique and coaching that maybe we did when we were growing up.
And I think it's really important that people signal that they're open to it. I find the most talented people on the team are the people that most benefit from feedback, from critique, from ‘we need more of this and less of that.’ And yet, as you know, it can be hard. You kind of want permission to give that feedback to people, or you want to know that they want to hear it. It's a real change in culture that I'm not sure has been all positive.
Alan Fleischmann
That's a really good point. Because there was a time that it wasn't something you invited, you got it. And when you when you got it, you had to really absorb it. And it was usually… well, I guess I can’t say if it was usually right or wrong, but in my case, it always was. I really embraced it, because it was someone who, you know, sometimes they're looking out for me, but other times they're looking out for the business, or looking out for the organization. And they just said, ‘that isn't the right thing. That isn't the right message.’ It wasn't always done in the sweet way. But it was in a direct way. And I think that's actually missing, I think you're right. People are being very careful now.
Suzanne Clark
Real learning opportunities, and a real opportunity to grow. I don't think I've ever given anyone feedback that I wasn't investing in. Taking a risk to try to help them along and make them better, because I believed in them and believe that they could be better.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s right. So, you went to Georgetown. What made you decide to go to Georgetown? And at Georgetown you did both undergrad and an MBA, right?
Suzanne Clark
I did. I actually started at GW. I was there for a year and I left, I dropped out after a series of family problems and tragedies. I went home for a while, and I just couldn't get DC out of my blood. So, I came back to DC and was working and trying to figure things out.
And one day — speaking of opportunities — a woman took me to lunch and she said, “what are you doing? You have got to get back to school.” And I said, “I know, I really want to go back to school, but I'm afraid to ask my dad for money again.” I don't know why — my dad's a wonderful man. But you know, it was early independence, I guess. and I said, “I need to find a job that has tuition reimbursement.” And she said, “my good friends at the American Trucking Associations need a new assistant, and they have tuition reimbursement.” So I went to work at the American Trucking Associations, solely to pay for school. I was going to secretary my way through school. I tried to go back to GW, but they didn't really have an evening program. I found a wonderful program at Georgetown that was really based on the great books programs: What is truth, what is meaning, what is beauty? It will teach you to read and write and speak, but also study these great themes.
So I started going to Georgetown at night and on the weekends while secretary-ing my way at ATA. I worked for two people, Leslie Wharton and Tom Donohue, who didn't seem to notice I didn't have my degree. So as long as I worked hard, they would give me more and more to do. And so, I literally was the Chief of Staff at ATA by the time I graduated from Georgetown with my undergraduate degree. It's really a remarkable testament to people just making opportunity available.
Alan Fleischmann
I did not realize that you were already working with Tom Donohue at that point.
Suzanne Clark
I know, it was totally a fluke. I mean, I was really just going to answer the phones to get through college. And in fact — I'll tell you another part of the story — then I finished school, and I did well. And I thought, “okay, trucking has been great, but I'm ready to move.” We were in Alexandria, I'd like to get into the District. And I'm gearing up my courage to tell him it's time for me to do something else when he got the job running the US Chamber. He came into my office and said, “you want to go be the Chief of Staff at the Chamber?” So I got to come to the Chamber before I was 30, as the Chief of Staff, and keep a boss I loved and trusted, but have a whole new experience.
Alan Fleischmann
It’s like that great John Lennon quote — was a John Lennon? — that says, “life is what happens when you're not planning.” I’m big on planning, you're big on strategy and big on planning. But you want to leave room for those serendipity moments where you can say, I'll go for that for this, and then keep your eyes open for opportunity.
Suzanne Clark
Yeah. And then I was here for a couple years and then decided, “okay, I really do need to go have another learning opportunity.” And Tom and the Board asked if I would stay if they would help me pay for my MBA, we’d have a learning opportunity that way. So I went back to Georgetown and got my MBA. I was working full time and in a full-time MBA program, it was a crazy time. I just kept getting these great learning opportunities and making what I thought was a good contribution, which is always important.
Alan Fleischmann
I’m a big fan of people who have Chief of Staff experience, because you understand that details matter. You understand the strategy and direction, the importance of messaging. It's an extraordinarily, often critically important position, if not the most important position often. I'm curious if there are skills you develop there that have been lifelong skills? I'm sure the answer is yes.
Suzanne Clark
Well, it's interesting you ask that, because I know it's a question you like to ask people. So I gave it some thought, and the truth is, the way I started it — answering phones, and, you know, being the scrub on the bench — it's just so informative when you can do all of those jobs. When you can answer the phone, when you can work the printer, when you can plan an event, when you can plan a budget, when you can write an expense report, all those things. Then later, as you're managing those people, you know how much time that takes, you know how much work they put into it.
So it is, I think, important when you've created a career from the ground up, if you stay in the same industry, you really know so many of the jobs from a hands-on level. And maybe, the really early learning for me was around the relationships — the people willing to teach you, the people willing to critique you, the people willing to say what was right, and also, just building some lifelong relationships. I met friends in the trucking industry that I'm still friends with.
Alan Fleischmann
You build trust and learn the power of the individual, as well as how much the leaders of an organization or enterprise contribute to the culture of that enterprise.
Suzanne Clark
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, to your point about being Chief of Staff, you do get to see everything. I think what's interesting about the Chief of Staff role is that you see everyone's priorities. Where, when you're just in one division, you can only see your priorities and your deadlines. And when you’re Chief of Staff, you kind of see all of the demands, all of the competing deadlines, and all of the competing priorities. It kind of teaches you to gain perspective, to have some empathy for the people turning all that work in, but also some empathy for the boss who's receiving all of it. So how you prioritize, how you manage your time.
On that time management piece… We all argue over which one of us invented this concept, because we've all given the speech and nobody remembers who started it. But the idea is that we all have the same number of hours in the week, right? If you're the Pope, if you’re Bono, no matter who you are, you have the exact same number of hours in the week. And if you really take out a healthy work week, a commute — in the days when we all commuted — taking care of yourself, taking care of your family, and sleep, there's still a pretty good chunk of time. I think the most successful people bucket that time up into a meaningful chunk. For me, it was going to school at night for so many years that taught me that. But really this, how do people use their time? How intentional are they with their time? It just feels like the most successful people are the best at time management.
Alan Fleischmann
That's right. And I think you have that great saying, “if you want to get something done, go to the busiest person you know.” Because they're usually the person that will get it done. And there's a lot of truth to that. I think the busiest people I know are the ones who always know what to say yes to and what to say no to. But when they do say yes, they deliver. They’ve figured out a way to master time.
And it's hard, because now we live in a world where you spend so much of your time responding to emails and texts and other forms of communication. It used to be that you’d really be more people to people. But now, I think it's becoming even more efficient. If we can do it on Zoom, and do people to people, so we'll figure it out.
Suzanne Clark
I think you make such a good point, Alan. Part of it is, how much of your day are you willing to be responsive? I call it being on defense, you know — to your email, to your texts, to the incoming — versus how much are you on offense and directing how you want to spend your time. I think it's something that really changed my life a few years ago, I used to, like everybody else, keep my to-do list in a time-sensitive way. What do I want to get done today? And instead, a couple of years ago, I made the first page what do I have to get done this year. And it really changes how you organize your day. If you're confronted with, I have to make this revenue goal, I have to make these relationships, we have to get this bill across the finish line, I need to recruit and retain this talent, versus return this phone call, get this email out, et cetera. So that daily reminder of the big.
Alan Fleischmann
When did you get that idea? That's a quite a brilliant idea, because then it allows you to really distinguish what's higher priority than the other. I mean, you keep doing all the things that aren't part of those goals, then you really aren’t getting further on those goals.
Suzanne Clark
I think so. And I think laddering up, taking the time every couple of weeks or so to look at your past calendars, make a rough pie chart of how you spent your time, and compare that to how you're really going to evaluate yourself and your board is going to evaluate you at the end of that time. It's shocking how often your pie charts are off. You know what you're going to be evaluated on, along with who you want to be. Who I want to be as a mom, who I want to be as a sister, who I want to be as a daughter, who I want to be as a board member, who I want to be as a CEO, who I want to be as a friend. That's a pie chart that is really different than how I can spend any one day. And so, if you want to be successful — and I'm not great at this, by the way — making your pie chart of time spent equal to the goals that you have is really important. And it requires not spending all day on defense.
Alan Fleischmann
Did you spend like a day a week — or like, not a day — but a certain point during the week where you kind of look and recalibrate where are you on that? And are you spending enough time with the different pie slices? Because, right, it's not just the CEO job you're looking at, it's all the other responsibilities and the things you want to have that are fulfilling in your life.
Suzanne Clark
Absolutely. I try to do it about every two or three weeks, I will literally old-school, like, accidentally kill a tree and print out the last couple of weeks of calendars and rough chart out a pie chart. Then I compare that to what the goals are. I'll do it for work and I'll do it for home. And I just think it keeps you straight on what and where you really need to focus to achieve your goals. Because otherwise, it's kind of accidental, isn't it?
And I think as you go to work-life balance, the other piece is really giving yourself a break, you know? The advice I got when I became a mother was, in any one day, you're not going to be the mom you want to be or the executive you want to be. So give yourself a grade over a month or over a quarter and it'll balance out. There are times when you're going to take a work trip and not be the mom you want to be for a week. And there are times when you go to the school play and maybe not be the executive you want to be. You get grades by quarter on purpose. So you can continue to do that as a grownup. Give yourself a quarterly grade.
Alan Fleischmann
There are sacrifices, I know that. I just discovered yesterday that our senior in high school is going to have an award ceremony when I'm going to be overseas. It's a trip that I have to take, and there's a good chance she's going to get an award that night, but I won't be there. And you do wrestle with, you know, am I being a good parent and missing, because I have a prior commitment that I have to keep. And to your question, I think in some cases, I'm going to say it’s not so integral that you need to be home. And in other cases, it might be, well I’ve got to make up for it elsewhere by having a quality moment. But it's tough when you're doing busy, busy stuff. And you want to make sure it’s that quarterly model, I liked the way you looked at it. How did I do in the quarter, rather than, how did I do on a given day.
Suzanne Clark
You know, you asked me about my childhood, I'll tell you about a specific day. I don't think I've ever talked about this publicly before. So, when I was a senior in high school, James Michener came back to my high school to receive an award. He had been president of my high school class 60 years before I was. He showed up, and every news camera in town was there, and press light bulbs, and I got to introduce him, and a picture of him kissing my hand was on the front page of the Doylestown Intelligencer.
Alan Fleischmann
Because you were president of your class as well?
Suzanne Clark
I was. It was just this big moment. Neither of my parents were there, they were both working. And it didn't occur to me for a second to have hurt feelings over that. They were working, they were supporting the family. I think in some ways, what's really important as parents is that we turn and tell our kids that. We can't be at every game, at every awards program. Because work is important, too.
I think we give our kids a false sense of their primacy in the world, if they never learned that we're all balancing and juggling, and then they have to balance and juggle, then they have no ability to do that. Right? I was sure that my parents loved me. They weren't at the James Michener event, and we all got over it.
Alan Fleischmann
But you also got the appreciation and respect that they were working hard for you, for all of you.
Suzanne Clark
I think so. And you know, I try to not apologize to my daughter for working. That's a little bit backwards. Sometimes it's her turn, I miss work, and we do things because she's the primary actor. And sometimes I'm the primary actor, or my husband's the primary actor, and it's her turn to have a supporting role. And we can't, we can't raise all these kids who have to be the lead actors, right?
Alan Fleischmann
No, and I think you and I both share that when we are doing quality time together, whether it's a family trip or whatever, we try to be all in, that we're very present and can do that. I've always said that it's quality, not quantity. Although I will say, and I'm curious if you felt the same way, that if there was a silver lining around the pandemic and being locked down… Maybe not to a teenage daughter, but certainly to me. I did get moments — even though I worked from dawn to dusk, especially the first year of the pandemic — I found that if I was working and sitting on the couch, and one of my daughters was on the other couch and they were working and doing their studies, when they looked up and said something, and we had a conversation, it was so spontaneous and so rich, and so wonderful. And the family dinners were so wonderful that we could have missed more of that if I didn't have those two years. And I know that I would never wish it on anybody to have a pandemic and all the sadness that came from that. But if there was a silver lining, it was the fact that we could spend that quality time together.
Suzanne Clark
Well, I think it's great that your family had that experience, and we're all just looking for opportunities to do that. Because in the situation I just described, for example, my parents were scrapping it out when they had a young family.
Alan Fleischmann
What kind of work did they do?
Suzanne Clark
My mother was finishing school and she did some retail work on the side. My father was working at a big American manufacturing company, which he spent his whole career doing, rose through the ranks and became an executive and did a great job. But they had some lean years, and they were supporting the family. I think part of my calling in becoming CEO of the Chamber was how many families were feeling that across the country, and still do. It's not a choice to stay home with their kids, it's not a choice how they're spending their time. They have jobs that required them to be on the front lines. They had a family financial situation that required them to take as many hours as they could. So as hard as it can be for people like you and me in so many ways, we have an easy.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s right. Where do you brothers live now? Your two brothers.
Suzanne Clark
I lost one of my brothers years ago, tragically. But my baby brother — who is middle aged, so I really shouldn't call him that anymore — lives here in town works for another association. I see him all the time and am having dinner with him tonight. He lives two miles from me, so we remain extraordinarily close.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s wonderful. I remember being at some place. I think we were at a restaurant; I can't remember exactly where, I think it might have even been in New York. But you were with your brother. We saw I saw you in a restaurant, we chatted, and I met your brother. I almost want to say that you went you went and saw play together, but it was it was a trip. I remember the camaraderie in that relationship.
Suzanne Clark
Oh, you're so kind to remember, I have to tell you what we were doing. I remember seeing you very distinctly, it's a funny story. I had bought, at a silent auction here supporting, I think, the Lombardi Cancer Center, a package to have dinner with a Rolling Stone editor. And then I gave it to my brother for Christmas. So we took the train up to New York and had dinner with this Rolling Stone editor and worked so hard to be interesting to him. Because it was really easy to spend the whole time like, “oh my God, you've met Mick Jagger, what was it like? Oh my gosh, you met so and so, what was it like?” I think when you saw us, we were like, “okay, be cool. Ask sophisticated questions. Don't be a fangirl.” But we were a horrible fangirl and fanboy anyway.
Alan Fleischmann
But a wonderful thing to experience and a wonderful thing to do. That's really cool.
So, did you have different positions in those 10 years you were at the Chamber before you left? Because I know you left.
Suzanne Clark
I did. I came in as Chief of Staff. Over time, I took over communications and the Federation. It's interesting, the Chamber is one of those brands everybody's heard of, but nobody really knows what it is. You did a great job in your intro talking about the businesses. We represent 80% of the Fortune 1000, hundreds and thousands of small businesses. But you know, at our core, we were founded by the state and local Chambers. And we have about 1,000 trade association members and 1,500-1,600 Chamber members. And 120 AmChams overseas and bilateral business councils.
So that Federation job of really pulling together business leaders around the globe is so important. It was an important part of my formative years here. Then, after I finished my MBA, I did a stint here as Chief Operating Officer and really learned the business side, which was great. That was right before I was recruited away by Atlantic Media.
Alan Fleischmann
It's interesting you said that too. I lived abroad a bunch of my life and the AmChams are great places to go. It becomes a very central place for you to connect when you're when you're there, when you're living abroad. And they’re almost in every place you live, if you live abroad
Suzanne Clark
I was just in Mexico last week with the AmCham there, they were formed in 1917. It's a fantastic organization run by a really strong young female leader, and it was a great experience.
Alan Fleischmann
So what drew you to Atlantic Media in 2007, I think it was?
Suzanne Clark
I was having dinner with a search firm partner. It was a social dinner, and I was pregnant with my first and only child. She said, “I saw a spec today, and you're going to want to go interview for this job.” And I said, “you know, it's so interesting. I haven't been on a job interview since I first went to answer the phones at ATA. And I'm not even sure I know how to do it.” And she said, “you're gonna want to do this one.” I said, “so I'm going to go to my first job interview six months pregnant, like, this makes no sense.”
But I read the spec, and it was so fantastically David Bradley, and it was really his concept — that I'm sure you, who know him well, would have heard him speak about — which is, how do you join a force of intellect with the spirit of generosity? And I read this, and I looked up at the search partner and said, “are you kidding, that someone really thinks like this?” And she said, “I told you you'd want to meet him.” And it was a bit of a long story, but I was really drawn by the character and somebody who was looking to hire that purposefully. I was really interested in going to a for-profit company. In a lot of ways, what the Chamber did at the time, which is having hundreds of policy advocates, was not dissimilar to what National Journal was doing in having hundreds of policy journalists. The big difference, of course, not having a point of view, but the market was a little bit the same. The people who paid the Chamber were the advertisers at NJ and subscribers at NJ, so the market was the same and the issues were the same. The difference was learning not to have a point of view. And but I loved running a P&L. I was there for several years and it was a great experience.
Alan Fleischmann
And also, you came into that job understanding that you had to speak to and work with a variety of stakeholders. I imagine they were different stakeholders, but you had to do so much at the same there as well.
Suzanne Clark
Yeah. I think that, when David hired me, he was really interested in someone who knew the market. It was right in 2007 when journalism was changing so much, so it was about what the new products and services were going to look like and what were the market needs going to be. So it was great to take some of those same relationships forward.
Alan Fleischmann
And then you became a small business owner that grew quickly. You acquired a rather prominent financial information boutique firm, Potomac Research Group. How did that happen? And how did that experience inform you? Because I keep thinking about all the things that you've done, and the experiences you’ve had both in your personal life and in your professional life that led you where you are now at the Chamber. But I imagine that gave you a whole other perspective as well.
Suzanne Clark
PRG started as an Atlantic Media project. And it was really about, what are adjacent markets that care about what we write about, that care about policy risk and political risk? We came upon big institutional investors. And it started as a project for David, and when he was going to sell it, we graciously worked out a deal because I was really interested to see if I could grow it. And also at the time, his journalism was changing, and his needs were changing. It was a time for me to try something new, and I decided to run with PRG and spent several years as an entrepreneur.
My whole career has really been around the intersection of public policy and business. The Chamber was that, then the National Journal was that, and PRG was the same way. What you really learned quickly — and I think you, Alan, know this really well — is that Wall Street and Washington really speak different languages. So any ability to help translate back and forth was great. They were terrifying years. It's terrifying to be an entrepreneur. It's challenging, it's exhilarating, it's exciting. The problem is, it's usually all of those things before lunch, it’s constant. We were lucky, we had a lot of big institutional investors, we had a great team. I'm really proud. We created 23, 24 really well-paying, good jobs, and you feel good about contributing to society in that way.
But it also became really clear to me what a challenge government was. And it wasn't so much that I thought government was trying to hurt me as much as I felt like one of those buildings or cars in a Godzilla movie. They just came through and trampled on me, not even recognizing me as a lifeforce. So, the opportunity to come back to the Chamber, as I was selling PRG, then became really inspirational. If my first run at the Chamber was kind of serendipity, the second was really intentional. Which was, job creators, we know what a job means to a family. I know what that meant in my family growing up. We knew what a job means to a community. We know it means better health outcomes, better environmental outcomes, we know what it means.
And so, coming back and really thinking about that intersection of government, business, public policy, and politics really drew me here. I still didn't think I wanted to run it, I thought I would come back for a couple of years while I sold the company and my predecessor’s wife was ill, it just seemed like a stopping point. But then again, the pandemic changed it all again.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, that's exactly right. When you came back to the Chamber, did you come back with the idea that you were going to be the heir apparent, that you were going to succeed Tom?
Suzanne Clark
No, I really didn't. And I didn't for several reasons. One, I really loved running the P&L. I really liked my for-profit time, so I wasn't sure I wanted to keep going in the nonprofit world. Two, the way that Tom did the job, I wasn't sure I'd be great at or want to do. And three, I wasn't entirely sure that the Chamber didn't deserve a big change after decades with Tom. He had not announced a retirement date, and my assumption was it'd be in the middle of my child being in middle school and high school and it wouldn't be when I'd want to do it.
But again, all of it changed in the pandemic. All of a sudden, the mission of helping small businesses out of the pandemic, of helping those local chambers out of the pandemic, of the CEO job really changing in the pandemic in ways that I could not have guessed. What you said earlier: there I was, with my child all the time. So there was so much that changed that ultimately, I did decide I did want the job. The board put me through a pretty rigorous process, of goals and coaching. and it pretty rigorous interview that was almost three hours long. January 7, the day after what happened on the Hill here.
Alan Fleischmann
Oh my.
Suzanne Clark
But it was interesting, one of the search committee members said later that they've not heard me talk that much. That, you know, my job was to be number two. My job was to promote Tom's vision and strategy. And of course, he's an icon and a legend, it was a privilege to do that. But it was also kind of fun to stand up with my own voice and talk about my own vision and strategy, and I'm lucky it appealed to them.
Alan Fleischmann
That's so wonderful. You're listening to “Leadership Matters” on SiriusXM and on leadershipmattersshow.com. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. I'm here with Suzanne Clark, who is the CEO of the US Chamber of Commerce, and we're talking about her journey, both before the Chamber and during the chamber, when she left for a couple of important stints, and then then she came back and then, last year, was named CEO.
So, on some significant trends. You were a generational shift coming after Tom, certainly. At a time, as you said, during the pandemic, where people were looking at leadership through a whole new lens and small business being as important as ever and under great threat. But you also were the first woman to lead the organization in its whole history. And I have got to imagine, as a sister, a daughter, a mother, and a friend, that didn't get lost on you either — the role model that you were taking on by taking on that position.
Suzanne Clark
It's so funny, I never feel like the role model. I think I'm always so aware of the words and the things I've screwed up and the people I wished I treated differently, or what I want to do next… it's always learning, right? It's always about the learning opportunity. So I never think of myself as a role model.
But there were a couple moments early on. One of my daughter's friends screenshotted, took a picture of me on the news, and sent it to my daughter. And I think nothing is cooler for a teenager than when your friends think your mom is cool. So I think there were some early moments like that that were important.
but look Alan, I think the bigger issue is not about me, or about a woman leading the Chamber. It's about the fact that the business community is really diverse. There are entrepreneurs of every gender, ethnicity, religion, geography, industry across this country. And if places like the US Chamber — and we're not as good at it as we should be — but if we aren't intentional in finding all of that representation inside the Chamber, then how can we possibly represent their interests? So I think this, if we can't have them in the building, then at least using the Federation, the other associations, the other Chambers to make sure those points of view are well reflected in this building, then we're never going to have the strong ecosystem of entrepreneurs and big companies that our economy really depends on.
Alan Fleischmann
You said earlier that there's a big difference in communicating between Wall Street, Main Street, and Washington. And I think that in ways what you're doing now, and what the Chamber is doing now so vibrantly under your leadership, is you’re not putting them in verticals, you're creating horizontal opportunities for conversations to be had, important policy discussions to be had, that really do affect and empower across many sectors, but certainly across the field from big companies to small businesses, community, and frankly, national and international thinking as well. That's got to be exhilarating, because you have to go from the macro to the micro, understanding the micro effects the macro and is just as important as anything. And that's why you’re going to go to Dayton and other places, because you know how important it is.
But I think that's actually been reaffirmed under your leadership, or maybe re-understood because the circumstances have changed. But certainly, I feel that there's much more connectivity between the small-business and the big-business communities and national policy that we have.
Suzanne Clark
I love how you said that. Because I do think that too many people think you can like small business, but not big business. Or you can appreciate big business without small business. They don't understand what an ecosystem it is, right? If small businesses create the majority of jobs in the country, then they're creating the majority of consumers and customers for the big companies.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s power.
Suzanne Clark
And they're the vendors to big companies. The suppliers, the vendors, the customers — it's just all so much of a piece, and an understanding that, I think, is really important.
I'll give you a quick example. One of the things I realized when I was running PRG is that we had these huge institutional investor clients who would take 120 days to pay us. And the cash flow was really hard in a small company. That has really informed my thinking, and one of the things I talked to a lot of big companies about last year and the year before was, “you’re making a lot of commitments to supplier diversity. You're talking about diversifying your supply chain. Have you looked at your payment terms for your smallest companies?” And they looked at me and I said, “because if you think about it, you could be putting some of them out of business right now while you're committing to grow them.” You don't need to balance your cashflow on the back of the three diverse suppliers that you had. So, I think there are some things that were pain points for me as an entrepreneur that it helps me bring forward in thinking about the economy as so interconnected.
Alan Fleischmann
And that connectivity does matter. One big decision that you make at a big scale, you don't realize, you're actually affecting that a whole other cycle of businesses that are a part of your supply chain or your ecosystem.
Suzanne Clark
It's hard to have empathy if you've only ever worked in a big enterprise. It's really hard to have empathy for a company that might not have a legal department, might not even have an internal finance department. You may just have one or two people that are paying bills and up late at night, and it's intermingled with their personal finances. It's hard to even picture it. In the same way, it's hard to picture, for that small business, the resources available to the big business. Establishing some common communication lines, so we can help each other — and the state and local Chambers do this so well. The other state or local chamber in a region is really working to bring that community ecosystem together and strengthen it. That's really important, particularly when times are so complex.
Alan Fleischmann
That's right. There have been a lot of challenges over the last few years. Are there certain policies, ambitions, or visions that you have right now that are the top of the list for business leaders that you think need to be heard by many people that are listening to this show right now? Who should know that it is a priority, needs to be a priority, and that their voices would matter?
Suzanne Clark
Yeah, I would love to talk about that. And I'll try to limit it two, although I could go for a long time on this topic.
One is, I think business voices really need to get louder. I think too often, we live in this time where Twitter is dominated by outrage, whoever can get the maddest gets the most clicks, and you have algorithms that are, you know, designed to draw emotion out of people. Moderate business people aren't outraged, so we don't spend a lot of time using big emotional words. And it, I think we're going to have to change that. I think to the extent that we let extremes in either party define debates, it crowds out the voices that understand how our country was founded that understand that it was founded to believe in compromise, to believe in debate, to believe in getting 80% of what you wanted. That that was part of democracy, that's part of how we were founded. So one is, I think business has to get louder and find real champions in both parties who are willing to think about the economy, jobs, and communities, and prioritize those things.
And the second is, there's something going on right now, particularly in the Biden Administration, that I just fundamentally disagree with. Which is this kind of assumption that we have a really stagnant economy that that doesn't have any competition in it. It's not what we're seeing. I have a colleague who says he grew up in Oklahoma, and his dad could have a Bud Light or a Coors. Those were the beers when you walk down the grocery aisle. You and I know what the beer aisle looks like now — a diverse set. And yet, when the Biden Administration put out their executive order on competition, the beer industry was one that they highlighted as too stagnant.
And so this overreach, as I see it, by the FTC and by some other agencies, around this assumption that the economy is too stagnant, that there isn't enough competition, is just not what we're seeing. And the assumption that that only hurts big companies is what's really wrong. Speaking from experience, if you're a small business and you've been working towards an exit, and all of a sudden, you have no idea what the government playbook or rulebook is on what mergers and acquisitions they'll allow or not allow… That big company can wait a cycle or two to figure out what they're going to buy. That small company could miss their exit. The government can have rules, the government should focus on these things. But for a long time, what the government focused on was, where are consumers being harmed or potentially could be harmed and let's act there. My fear is that, if we overreach to too many industries: A) The rulebook becomes less transparent, which is never good government. B) your aren't looking out for the consumers who really need you if you've cast your net too wide. So, two things there.
Alan Fleischmann
Two really important things. And again, understanding the reality that tomorrow's big business is today’s small business. Understanding that we want to create scale that way as well.
Suzanne Clark
I think I think that's right. But I do think, Alan, that if you look at any of the numbers about the top companies performing companies, the biggest companies 30, 40 years ago, it’s not the same group of people that are as successful now. There are a lot of companies that move in and out of the S&P 500, that move in and out of the Fortune 1000.
So there's a lot of signs that this is a dynamic economy. The companies that are dominating the news now didn't exist when you and I were in high school. We can talk about what we do to grow companies, but chilling their exit environment is not something that most entrepreneurs are excited about.
Alan Fleischmann
You make an extraordinary point: we can talk ourselves out of a good economy for folks. And we can talk ourselves down where we can really be talking ourselves up. Confidence is a huge ingredient in how the economy does, and if we show a lack of confidence, we will show it in places that will really hurt businesses from growing, or ourselves from expanding or scaling.
Suzanne Clark
I love that you say that, because I believe it to be true in so many places. This is a complex time in world history and I'm not downplaying that. But we are a big, innovative country, and we can do a lot of things at one time. We can decide that we want to be energy self-sufficient for our national security and that we want to mitigate climate change. We can decide that we can do two things at one time. And as a country, we can decide that we want to control our borders and have good border security and that we need more legal immigration. And we have to stop allowing these loud, outraged voices to make false choices, as if we can only have one. Because we're a big, innovative country. The future belongs to people who are optimistic about our ability to solve those problems with innovation, not afraid and standing back.
Alan Fleischmann
Why do you think that is the case, though, that often, there is this negativity at the highest levels? It just seems like basic common sense to me that if we want to see vibrancy, we need to talk up vibrancy. If we want to see innovation, we have to talk up innovation. I don't understand that, actually. It seems to be just basic, common sense.
Suzanne Clark
Well, what would my grandmother say, “from your lips to God's ears,” right? I think for a lot of us, it is logical. And this is maybe my point about businesses getting loud again, which is: how can we focus government regulation and enforcement on bad actors who really are out there? And tell people what the rules are, be transparent about what the playbooks are, while at the same time, encouraging entrepreneurship, innovation, and next level thinking.
We have real challenges as a country, and I think the business community is ready to solve them. And you've seen with the Edelman Trust Barometer and other things, how much people trust business to get these things done. So it's a matter of, to your point, of being optimistic and taking on the fight, getting on the field.
Alan Fleischmann
It is so true. And I think when you think about some of the darkest days that we've had the last couple of years — and they span from the health crisis with COVID-19 to the geopolitical crises that we've obviously seen more recently, globally and in Europe — business is stepping up. The science was won because of businesses. We've talked about some of those companies that are members of the Chamber, who were bold and ambitious and made the impossible possible. You look at Pfizer, for example; I know they've been part of the US Chamber.
And then you've got businesses speaking up around what's happening in Europe right now from a powerful point of view of, how do we make things work? And how do we overcome adversity? How do we fight for families? Business is actually the loudest voice right now. I say that knowing that each and every business is unique and every enterprise has got its own DNA. But collectively, it’s the voice of the private sector that's really paving the way.
Suzanne Clark
I think that's right. And I think you saw small companies do it right. You saw people pivot and sell their restaurant supplies to families who couldn't get toilet paper. You saw people pivot and do to-go drinks and other innovations. You saw technology companies creating new ways for us to communicate, or companies pivoting to produce PPE in a different way. Whether it's the pandemic, health issues, or climate mitigation, there are big issues out there and business stands ready to help.
Before I got on this call with you. I was reading an email from the CEO of the AmCham in Ukraine. That AmCham has existed for 30 years, as long as Ukraine has been independent. And they have, of course, had to scatter. We've been doing everything that we can to support them as individuals and brother and sister Chamber executives. But if you think about what the business community has done to support philanthropic efforts in Ukraine, it's remarkable. Or the group that got together to send ventilators to India when they didn't have any. They’re kind of untold stories, because they don't cause enough outrage to get enough clicks for us to keep telling them. But at some point, there’s feel good news too that we shouldn't rest on, but it should inspire us to solve more problems together.
Alan Fleischmann
Is there a book in you Suzanne? Because you bring such extraordinary perspectives and you speak in a way that is both inspiring and pragmatic, meaning people understand. They trust you and can be inspired by you. Is there a book in you to write about this, because I imagine that would be a cool thing for people to have.
Suzanne Clark
You're so kind. Alan, most people don't want to talk to me as long as you just talked to me. I can't imagine anyone wanting to read the book. I used to dream about writing a piece of fiction. You know I'm a great lover of literature and poetry. So I think when I think about writing, it's not because I have something cool to say. But it is interesting to think about, by virtue of this position, the experiences I get to have and the miracles I get to witness and the challenges. So there are probably stories there that are worth being told.
Alan Fleischmann
The hardest thing for you probably would be limiting to the amount of chapters you'd need to have for a book. But I’ve got to think that, whether it's in discovering innovation… So many companies are being born to do good, and to create things that are helpful and can actually improve society and people's lives. People don't think about business that way, they don't realize that the innovative ways in which they create community investments and change communities because they're a big employer. It’d be interested to have a book that actually told a little bit of those stories and tried to go from the small business to the big business and explain the role that they've had. And then even identify some of the bad guys that we want to avoid, so that you can really trust when you're talking about the good ones.
Suzanne Clark
And I think to your point, when my grandparents were working, it was “enough” that they were providing for their families. That was a societal good, both as a worker but also as an employer, that there were people who provided good wages and good benefits. And one of the things I think we're seeing happen is that as trust in institutions declines — as Bowling Alone comes true and no one's going to church or joining the Rotary, et cetera — they bring all of that civic activism to work, because they no longer have the clubs, the outlets, the churches, and the other civic institutions. They may not trust their government.
So this concept of needing the workplace to be everything to an employee and to a citizen is all so flawed, because it definitionally can't be. So, how we help people find civic outlets for their issues, their causes, and their passions, and let employers provide good jobs, provide good benefits, provide a good service to the community, provide philanthropy to the community, and innovate and solve solutions; That's a pretty big role. But I think we also have to reinvent and build up some of the other civic institutions if we want to be successful as a country in the long run.
Alan Fleischmann
Tell us a little bit about the Foundation.
Suzanne Clark
Sure. The Foundation does great work in several areas. It has a big bucket that does education and workforce training. It's in 42 states, I think, just really helping communities take their job creators and their educational institutions and make sure that the people they're producing will get jobs at the other end. It's fascinating and important work. They have a group called Hiring Our Heroes that does a lot of work in hiring military spouses and vets and helping them match up in the community, that’s another great group.
They have a group called the Center for Corporate Citizenship that really highlights the good that corporations are doing. They have trackers that track that good, but they also help coordinate it. One thing we know after a disaster is when companies are being generous, if they don't coordinate it, you end up with one town that gets all the fishing boats and a different town that gets all the nets. So CCC does a great job in coordinating aid and coordinating philanthropic efforts so that they're more impactful on the ground. They do great work in emerging issues and trying to help businesses prepare for the future and what's coming down the pike. They ran a great series during the pandemic called Path Forward, that was a weekly show, ended up with 30 million viewers, just trying to get the clearest, nonpartisan information about the pandemic and getting through it that they could. I'm sure I'm missing something, but they do phenomenal work.
Alan Fleischmann
That's amazing. It’s an enormous scale. Let’s go back a bit back as we wrap up. For CEOs, future CEOs, leaders, and folks who are at the intersection between public, private, and civil society — which so many of our listeners are — what kind of tools do you live by? How do get through the day?
You juggle so many people; you've got a lot of employees, a lot of stakeholders that are actively engaged with you that are in your ecosystem. You've got members that are active at the Chamber, and then you've got all these affiliations that you are working with. What are those tools that you use? You said you think of the annual goals, which I thought was brilliant. What is my yearlong goal? And then you build from there, which I'd never heard of before. What other secrets to your leadership journey and your life journey that you'd love to share?
Suzanne Clark
There's really only one, and it's just to surround yourself with the best people you possibly can. When I would guess lecture at Georgetown, I used to tell people “pick your boss and not your job.” Find someone who will really open up doors for you, that will give you an honest critique, that will be invested in your career. And then, do the best job you can for them and they'll take care of you, because they'll be terrified of losing you. You'll never have to ask for money, or promotions, or anything, because you have made yourself indispensable. Pick a great boss and make yourself indispensable.
Well, now that I am the boss, I have to make sure that I'm surrounding myself with people who are the best at what they do. And that they want to stay here, that their job is meaningful to them, that I'm meeting them where they live, that I'm helping them grow their careers. I'm surrounding them with colleagues that are good people, great at what they do, and making the tough decisions so that the team — kind of like David Bradley used to say — will be both intellectual forces and forces for good in the world.
So it's really about listening to people, trying to create an environment where they can critique you,. That's hard, people don't want to do that. Asking for critique from your board, from your employees. Really, it's just all about people.
Alan Fleischmann
How many employees are there at the Chamber?
Suzanne Clark
Close to 500.
Alan Fleischmann
That's a big organization. I love you just said that. I've always believed that the same thing you articulated so well: pick your boss, rather than the job or organization, because having a great relationship with a great mentor — as you said earlier, that's been your journey — can really be transformational. And so rich, because they're going to want you in as much as you want them. Whereas people going from job to job searching, they're not always going to find that that lucky relationship that actually can be a life journey.
Suzanne Clark
If you told me when I was answering Tom Donohue’s phone that I would end up being the CEO of the Chamber, I would have laughed at you. It wasn't my ambition. I had no plan. And he's still one of my best friends, I'm seeing him tomorrow and I talk to him almost every day. So that ability to have a mentor, that ability to have that relationship and that trust, it's everything.
Alan Fleischmann
You are leading a remarkable organization at a time where we lead the private sector more than ever. I think we always have, but I think we know it more than ever. You are inspiring leader and I'd love to see you out there , honestly, because you speak with values and you speak with a conviction and principles, frankly, that we need more CEOs to do. You are that role model that I refer to, even though you don't think you are.
Suzanne Clark
As I told you, no one in my family wants to hear more from me, let alone the general public. But Alan, I so enjoyed this conversation and this series, I appreciate you having me on.
Alan Fleischmann
We’re glad. You've been listening to “Leadership Matters” on SiriusXM and at leadershipmattersshow.com. This is Alan Fleischmann. We’ve had a wonderful hour with Suzanne Clark, and we look forward to having you back again.
Suzanne Clark
Thank you so much.