Dr. Sian Beilock
President of Barnard College
“So first, I talk about the importance of praise, second about being really explicit about how you carve out what's important in your team and deadlines, and third that we all feel a lack of control...These sorts of things seem like maybe simple tweaks, but they make such a difference in the mentality of your team, the ability to work at your best. Leadership is a skill like anything else, and we have to understand the science to do it well”
Summary
In this episode of Leadership Matters, Alan and his friend Dr. Sian Beilock discuss the qualities of good leaders, such as humility and strength.
As an expert in cognitive science with a Ph.D. in Psychology from Michigan State University, Sian describes the importance of understanding anxieties around behaviors and their real-world consequences.
In this wide-ranging conversation, they discuss cognitive science, the qualities of leadership, and the importance for young women to see other women in leadership positions, to know that they can be multiple things, and that they don’t have to do them all perfectly.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
Click here to listen to Sian’s Ted Talk
Choke and How the Body Knows Its Mind are Sian’s books
Barnard Bound is a program started by Barnard to help low-income students apply to college
Guest Bio
Sian L. Beilock, Ph.D. is a cognitive scientist and the eighth President of Barnard College. After spending 12 years at the University of Chicago, Sian became the 8th president of Barnard College in 2017 where she has expanded major offerings from 6 to 100 in 4 years. She has written two books, Choke and How the Body Knows Its Mind, which help people control their behavior under pressure. She holds doctorates of philosophy in both kinesiology and psychology from Michigan State University.
Follow Sian on Instagram, Twitter, and Google Scholar.
Clips from this Episode
How Barnard is adapting & persevering through the COVID-19 pandemic
The need to keep science associated with personal experiences & human interactions
In response to a Barnard freshman's murder, in December 2019
Episode Transcription
Alan Fleischmann
You're listening to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. I'm here with my good friend, the president of Barnard College, Sian Beilock. She's an esteemed author, scientist, academic, and speaker. In 2017, she became the eighth president of Barnard College, as we know which is affiliated with Columbia University. This prestigious independent 131-year-old New York women's college has alumna that have really become leaders around the world. Before assuming the presidency of Barnard, Sian was the executive vice provost and a professor of psychology at the University of Chicago and a professor of psychology at Miami University. Sian is a cognitive scientist, who is a leading expert in how our brains and bodies influence our performance in everything from academics to sports. She deals with anxiety and stress. Her work has produced two best-selling books. In 2010, the book Choke and in 2015, How the Body Knows Its Mind. Her 2017 TED Talk has been viewed by more than 2 million times. CNN is an academic in the best sense of the word. She's curious, she challenges us, and she thinks around the corner. She's a scientist and a leading expert on the intricacies and mysteries of the brain, the soul, and the heart. She's the author of two best-selling books, as I said, and I'm really thrilled to talk with her today. Despite all your academic credentials, I've gotten to know you as someone who doesn't hang out in the ivory tower at all. You're an exceptional leader, strategic thinker, and you're not afraid to engage on topics like we're having right now. How do we navigate during difficult times of adversity? And more importantly, not only do we survive but how do we thrive? It is such a pleasure because of this show, we get to talk to leaders who bring so much to the world. And I don't know anyone who's been more transformational and continues to be than you. So I'm really thrilled you're with us today.
Sian Beilock
Well, thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here as well.
Alan Fleischmann
Yes, it’s very exciting. I have become a huge fan of Barnard College because of the way you've taken on the different issues that you have. And the way you look at higher education and how you see it as a time for transformation for higher education as well. But it's also great to know before we get there, a little bit about your early years. Tell me a little bit about where you grew up.
Sian Beilock
I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area. And I was always interested in why I sometimes performed well in stressful situations and why I sometimes didn't. So I was an avid athlete. I was always interested in doing well. And whatever I did, and growing up, I was struck by the variability in when people would put their best foot forward when it mattered most and when we wouldn't. And so I really, from a young age, have wanted to better understand how the brain works and how we can perform our best when it matters most.
Alan Fleischmann
Did you go about it in the self-help kind of way? Or do you go about it like a scientist? Because I would say what makes you different is that you seem to be a scientist who understands how to speak to the layman. And that you're a person who understands—I mean, I mentioned soul and heart. I didn't mean physically in cardiology, I meant literally the heart because you're able to talk about the science of the brain, but not forget the fact that we are people with feelings and we are people with purpose.
Sian Beilock
Yeah, I mean, I definitely do me-search in addition to research and I think it's actually really a shame when people talk about science as being cold or separated from one's own experiences. Because a lot of what makes scientists great is the curiosity and experiences they had growing up. And I also feel that we have a responsibility as educators and academics, as university and college leaders, as faculty, to talk about the research we do in the real world. And I think everything around the pandemic has really laid that bare. There's a hole in terms of scientists, reputable scientists, being out there talking about what we know, what prevents COVID, and the effectiveness of something like a vaccine. And if we're not talking about it, people who are uninformed are.
Alan Fleischmann
And that's amazing. And if you look at it like a bunch of data points, and not understand the human interaction part, that doesn't work. If you look at the human interaction part without actually having data points, you can't convince anybody of anything.
Sian Beilock
And I mean, I think something that I have spent a lot of time in my career studying is the anxiety a lot of us have around math. In the US, it's very socially acceptable to walk around bragging that you're not a math person. You don't hear people bragging that they're not reading people. And unfortunately, this is especially true for girls and women. And all we're being bombarded with is data, right? The data in graphs or increases in rates, or this many people are going to the hospital. And if you don't understand what that data means, you're stuck taking the conclusion of whatever journalist is writing. And it really limits your ability to think on your own. And so I think we have a problem from the youngest levels of making sure folks are comfortable with looking at a chart and interpreting it for themselves.
Alan Fleischmann
So tell me, was there someone, was there an event that happened in your childhood that made you say, I want to really understand anxiety and go for the science of it? Or was there a mentor that said, you have some skill or talent that you need to pursue?
Sian Beilock
You know, it's interesting. I think in talking to, and hearing leaders across fields talk about this, my path to where I am was very nonlinear, which I think is often the case, I think we often look at people who are really successful and think, well, they knew everything they wanted to do early, and they took one step forward. And I think the essence of being a scientist is questioning rules and assumptions. And when I think back and I think about a narrative, the biggest influence in my questioning rules and assumptions was my mother. And I remember in third grade, I wanted to play on the boys soccer team. And they told her as she was signing up that I could only play on the girls’ soccer team because boys and girls played soccer separately. And my mother who was a big-time lawyer said, That's ridiculous. You can't do that. And she really raised her voice and talked to people in the gym as we were signing up. And lo and behold, I got to play on the boys’ soccer team, with all my friends. And it was the first time I think it really struck me that you didn't just have to follow the rules that these were some people's assumptions and that you could actually, if you had well-reasoned arguments, break those down and think in different ways. And that's really the crux of what science is, right? It's asking whether the assumptions we have are right, and how we push forward.
Alan Fleischmann
Was there another mentor besides your mother?
Sian Beilock
Yeah, I mean, I think I've had very strong mentors in my life. Many of them have been teachers or my advisors in graduate school. And the ones that were the most influential were ones that allowed me to think big, and cheered me on rather than saying, I couldn't do it.
Alan Fleischmann
Obviously, you came from a place where—Silicon Valley was becoming Silicon Valley all around you. Were you aware that there was this technology revolution being born all around you?
Sian Beilock
I was actually because I did my undergrad at the University of California, San Diego, and I was a cognitive science major. And cognitive science is an amazing degree. You take a year of computer science, a year of neuroscience, and a year of psychology. And all my cognitive science majors were being snapped up into the Valley. And of course, I went in a totally opposite direction. I went to get a Ph.D. But I was definitely aware that something was going on and that I could either follow the path that everyone was following or do something a little different. And I think that's been maybe one of my traditions is I’m always am looking in the other direction.
Alan Fleischmann
And does that mean, actually, even though you knew you were going for the science and you were going for the Ph.D. that you also knew that there was another path you wanted to take alongside of it?
Sian Beilock
No, I mean, I actually didn't know I wanted to be a college administrator. As I was going to get a Ph.D., I thought I wanted to be a professor and do research. And it wasn't until I was at the University of Chicago. There's a faculty senate basically where you're voted on by your peers to represent the faculty. And I was selected to sit in a group of about 12 faculty that have lunch with the President and Provost once a week. And I was the only woman. I was the youngest by 30 years. I was pregnant at the time. And I remember sitting at this boardroom table and thinking, My God, there's an entire institution around what I do and their perspectives that are being lost. Younger perspectives, perspectives of women. And I got excited by the fact that I could actually affect change at an institutional level. And that's when I thought about the prospect of leadership at the university.
Alan Fleischmann
And what was your first leadership job at the university?
Sian Beilock
I went straight into a vice provost position. So after I sat in that group, I actually sat down with the president of the university, Bob Zimmer. I asked if he would have lunch with me. And I said, How do I get your job? And he said we have some opportunities happening. And I jumped. So I went from running a huge lab of 30 people to Vice Provost focusing on the academics. And from there, I took on more and more, and I realized how much I loved being able to execute on other people's good ideas. And I think that's a big part of leadership.
Alan Fleischmann
Did they kind of become also participants in your studies? I imagine, once you were in a leadership position, you started to manage people and create dynamics for interaction. There's nothing more political than a university environment. And diversity exists everywhere in a university environment in most cases. I imagine they became you case studies in some ways.
Sian Beilock
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. I find commonalities in everything I've done. So I was captain of my soccer team growing up, and I realized to get people to play the best, you had to manage them really differently. Like what worked for me didn't work for another player. Then when I was running a big lab, I realized along the way that to get a Ph.D. student to work at their best, every student was different. Like you couldn't just take your style. And it's definitely true in a leadership position at an institution, you have to play to the strengths of the people around you, and you can't manage everyone the same. And I'm sure they teach that in business school, and I just had to learn it on my own. But that's one thing I really have come to appreciate running an institution is that you can get the best out of your team and it and you have to be flexible in how you do that with each individual.
Alan Fleischmann
And did you apply those things that you were studying as part of management? I mean, your books bring a certain amount of confidence to you, and you read them and a certain amount of humility, understanding how little we know and how much more we need to know about ourselves. But there's also a little bit of surrendering, forgiving, accepting, understanding that there is this fragility as you become agile and gritty. And I'm just curious if that has—I know it's certainly been applied in the way you've applied being president. But I'm just curious on the journey, going all the way to the path to the presidency, if you actually found yourself realizing how fragile we were in, and how you can turn into a strange.
Sian Beilock
Yeah, I mean, the crux of all of my research is that you're not born a choker or a thriver, you can develop skills to perform at your best. And I certainly use my research on myself, but also on the people I'm managing, right? I mean, a good example is thinking about when someone below you needs to speak up at a big meeting, present an idea, and how you get them prepared for that. And from my research, I know that you can't just rely on the fact that they know the material. They actually have to be able to talk about it in ways that people who don't know what they're talking about understand. And so being able to use that, for example, as a tool to get people ready to perform at their best and when people below you are presenting or pitching or talking it's a reflection on you. And I take that very seriously. And I certainly apply the psychology of performance in everything I do.
Alan Fleischmann
This agility and strength along the way as well. You're listening to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM. I'm your host, Alan Fleishmann. And here with the president of Barnard College Sian Beilock. Now we're talking about her journey and her leadership journey, certainly, but also how her expertise is probably never been more needed, than it is now. And how grateful, I'm sure, the community of Barnard is to have her at the helm. But also so many of us who read your books are learning from her every day. I'd love to go back and forth a little bit in your journey in your life. I was very struck by your book, Choke. What made you want to write a book? And the end of the journey to get there. Was it a different book than you would have anticipated maybe years before? Or was this book in you already?
Sian Beilock
I mean, I think again, it comes back to this idea that I haven't had everything premeditated or laid out, which I think that's true for most leaders. And it came from the research that I was doing, I realized that the questions about how we perform under stress, and how we can do it better. More questions that not only I had, but a lot of people had. And so after I had done some of the research, I wanted a way to really get it out there to a broader audience. And I thought a book would be a great way to do it. Now I have to say that there were editors and agents kind of pushing at my door for many years. And I thought, well, I can't do that. I'm an academic. And it was one agent that said, well just write a paragraph, just write one more paragraph. Okay, now we have eight paragraphs. And then we sold the book. And it went to auction, it did really well. And then I was going for tenure at Chicago, and I didn’t put it on my documents that I was writing a popular audience, but and it was to the credit of my chair, who came and said, You have all this press, I want to know how we put it together. And I said, Well, I do have a contract with Simon and Schuster to write a book, then he was like, Oh, my God. We're putting that on. And I think it's something that I really bring to how we think about what happens in the ivory tower. Like we have to support faculty who want to be really engaged in public discourse. Like we have to support this notion of the public intellectual and if we don't do it.
Alan Fleischmann
Now that was any of this biographical autobiographical, where there are moments where here, you're studying this, you understand anxiety, you can identify anxiety Have you had moments in the lead up to that book where, with all that I know, and all that I study, I choked?
Sian Beilock
Oh, yes. I mean, first of all, I had a student and our student government say if you're reflecting back, what's your biggest failure since you've been at Barnard? I said, I fail every day, right. And I think part of this book is about the idea that we all make mistakes. And we all often think we're really prepared, and we just can't pull out our best performance. And it's not chance, right? There are actual psychological tools you can use to perform better. And it's especially true in current times when we're all stressed out. And under the gun because of the pandemic, when we don't have control over a lot of things. There are psychological tools that you can do to feel better, to perform better, to think better to help your family, your colleagues, the people that work for you feel better, and we have to practice it just like anything else.
Alan Fleischmann
And what kind of cues would you give someone right now who says okay, I'm listening to this show. I'm a leader, I'm an aspiring leader, or I'm on the front lines. What do I need to do to prevent choking?
Sian Beilock
Well, I would say one thing is to really think differently. Praise for the people that work for you matters more now than ever before. People are looking for ways to find meeting meaning and satisfaction in what they do. They're often having to juggle home life and work life on the same zoom meeting, and being really explicit about how you praise the people that work for you and doing it more than normal is really important. I'd say a second one is thinking very clearly about how you're giving deadlines. We've been in such a speeded panic situation, with no playbook in so many industries. And we're getting to a place now where people are just exhausted, cognitively exhausted, physically exhausted. And if leaders aren't slowing some things down, or being explicit about what has to get done right away, and what can be done two weeks later, you're really not going to get the best performance from your team. And so being very explicit about that. So first, I talked about the importance of praise, the second about being really explicit about how you carve out what's important in your team and deadlines. And the third is that we all feel a lack of control. And in my research, I've shown that when you actually open up the head and look inside, when people feel a lack of control, when they don't have a context for the situation, their lizard brain comes out. This is like our very ancient evolutionary brain that helps us get up the tree when a lion was coming and it takes over everything. And we literally can't think at our best. So the idea is how do you help people gain some control. So for My nine-year-old who doesn't know one day or the next whether she's going to be in school or on zoom, we've set up a little desk in her room. It doesn't matter where she is, we know she can have control over her environment. For some of my leadership team, being very clear that even though we're in the middle of the pandemic, here are three things that we can work on for the future that we know we can control, that aren't the product of outside forces. These sorts of things, they seem like maybe simple tweaks, but they make such a difference in the mentality of your team, the ability to work at your best. Leadership is a skill, these are managing as a skill, like anything else, and we have to understand the science to do it well.
Alan Fleischmann
There's tools that if you're about to present, or you're about to be in a convening moment where you're gonna have to speak up, where your voice or should be heard your question where the voice should be, which should be heard as well, then you've got cues. Anyone who knows me understands one of my favorite quotes. And I raised my daughters on this quote. It’s from Nelson Mandela. It encourages not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. And when I think of you, I think that it's so much of the way you approach things is to acknowledge that you are vulnerable, acknowledging that you’re fragile, and if you can do that, you can build confidence, because you can build all the tools and skills through awareness. And then the cues to take up to actually make sure that you don't get frightened in order for you to actually succeed.
Sian Beilock
Yeah, and I mean, in Choke, and in my work, we talked about some of these very explicit tools, right. So one, for example, is just realizing and reminding yourself that sweaty palms and beating heart isn't a sign you're going to fail. But that actually is the lizard in you. And that beating heart is shunting blood to your brain. So you can think and in my research, we've actually shown that if you tell people to reframe these physiological responses, they have more brainpower. They actually do better in an important situations. Something else really simple is just jotting your worries down on paper right before you go into that important situation. It's like it downloads that from the mind, and they're less likely to pop up and distract you. Thinking about the one reason why you should be raising your hand or be out there. Maybe more than anyone else. You've done this before. Focusing on why you should succeed, rather than why you should fail, these things actually change how your brain functions.
Alan Fleischmann
And I think also if we acknowledge—this is an Einstein kind of thing—we do this with other people I work with every day too. This idea that if you can figure out the simplest questions, you don't even have to have the answers. By having the questions, the right questions asked, you can get to the right answer. I think we search for the answer sometimes so long that we forget that the question.
Sian Beilock
Yeah. And the debate, which leads to better answers, right? I mean, I think being able to create an environment where people feel really comfortable pushing back and pushing back hard is so important to making the right decisions.
Alan Fleischmann
Now, did you know you wanted to be a college president when you had that wonderful lunch?
Sian Beilock
You know, I was curious. I knew I always wanted to push and think about how I could affect change and I was curious about what that would look like. And I didn't know. I figured I'd spent many years in the provost office getting to know but the opportunity at Barnard came up. Barnard is such a fantastic place. It's singular. There's no place like it that's focused on women's intellectual leadership, small, tight-knit with the larger Columbia University as the backdrop and I jumped. It was an opportunity I knew I couldn't say no to.
Alan Fleischmann
And how well did you know Barnard before? Did you know pretty well?
Sian Beilock
I knew of Barnard and I knew of its academic excellence and the fact that it has produced the most amazing women. But I had a lot to learn, actually. But I was enamored with the idea that there was this place really focused on women's success at the highest, highest level. And the idea that it's not about reducing what the bars are that you have to jump through, but increasing them was something that I was really intrigued by.
Alan Fleischmann
It's an amazing school, really college. I don't think people realize—some think it's part of Columbia. And it has a strong affiliation with Columbia. But unlike Radcliffe and Harvard, it is independent.
Sian Beilock
Yeah, I mean, Barnard is its own institution with its own trustees and its own endowment and we have a relationship with Columbia that allows classes to be cross-listed. Our faculty are tenured at both institutions and our students get a diploma from Barnard and Columbia. So you get this small, tight-knit education across the arts and sciences focused on empowering women with all the resources of the larger university. And it's really the best of all worlds in my mind. And we have so many students who come to clot to Barnard choosing between Barnard and one of the other IDs, and they talk about coming, not necessarily because it's focused on women. But these students come out saying they're so happy that it was it empowers them, they get a voice in a way they wouldn't have. And our Barnard graduates get jobs right away, we just got our data from 2020 and 90% are in jobs or grad school within six months. And I think in this job market, that's an amazing data point.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s huge, actually. Why do you think women’s colleges are so important. Maybe it's not? Maybe it's just Barnard is so important. In the way it's actually managed to kind of create its own niche.
Sian Beilock
Yeah, I mean, people ask me this all the time. Do you have to go to a woman's college? Right? Is there only one way to do education? And as a scientist, my answer is no. There's lots of ways to be successful in education. But it's really what happens at Narnard that could happen anywhere, but tends not to, and I think there's three parts of our secret sauce. One is you see lots of women who are leaders, you see women leading the institution, 60% of our science faculty are women. And we know from psychological research that seeing people like you succeeding, and leading at the top, makes you more likely to think you can do it. So that's number one. The second is that we explicitly debunk gender stereotypes. There's no such idea, there's no basis that girls aren't as good at math that girls shouldn't be in STEM. A third of our graduates are in STEM, we produce so many doctors, we debunk and address the stereotypes. And when you break them down, and you ask why this would even be here and how it could not even be true, it gives people confidence as well. And the third one is that it's just like hitting a tennis ball against the wall. At some point, you don't even have to think about it. And when you don't think about whether you're a woman or not when you raise your hand or you're a minority or not when you raise your hand to say something, when it just becomes automatic. When you get out into a place where maybe you are the only woman in the room, or no one looks like you at the table, you don't hesitate, you just do it. You just hit the tennis ball, it's automatic. And our women come out with this voice and the ability to speak up in any situation. And it's so special.
Alan Fleischmann
Is the alumni network also special?
Sian Beilock
Yeah, and that's part of it. I mean, we have 35,000 women who are there to fight and support our Barnard alarms. And one of the things that I've done since I've been there is actually really tighten the connection between the students and alums. So we developed a whole office and initiative called Beyond Barnard that's designed to help the students connect with alums for jobs, for advice, for mentorship, and it's such a fantastic thing, both for the students and the alums.
Alan Fleischmann
Well, you've done a lot of things but you've also created a pipeline to get into get into Barnard and you created a pipeline for diversity that obviously is part of the Barnard ecosystem now, but has influenced beyond Barnard.
Sian Beilock
Yeah, I mean, look, Barnard is an amazing institution, also a very highly selective institution, we had 9500 applications for 600 spots last year. And I realized our reach sometimes can seem small. But what I think oftentimes people don't understand about higher education, or what the responsibility of higher education is, is to reach much bigger than the students that go there. And so we take our destination in New York City very seriously. We're not just in the city, we're of the city. And we've developed several programs where we're having thousands of young women come to Barnard or be virtual at Barnard just to learn about how to apply to college. We know that one of the biggest differences between students who come from higher versus lower-income backgrounds, in terms of thinking and getting into college, is the advising and support they have. And so we've started an entire program called Barnard Bound, where we're helping to support low-income students to think about Barnard, but to think about how to apply for college, what the essay looks like, how to apply for financial aid. And that's really where the reach of an institution starts becoming so much more than the students. It just serves the undergrads. It really can have an effect across an entire community and an entire world I would argue.
Alan Fleischmann
That's amazing because you're dealing with all the disunity issues, all the challenges we now have about dealing with diversity that doesn't exist as much as it should, or inclusivity. We want that in our society. And if there's anything that we just learned in this last election, not to get political on the show too much, is that we've got a lot of challenges when it comes to people who feel voiced out or they feel voiceless and there's a real lack of unity in our communities in our country. You're building something that actually creates that kind of inclusivity, that kind of idea that with the right outreach, and the right access, you can join this. You’re elite because you're the best. Not elite because you're limiting the others
Sian Beilock
Yeah. And I think that people often think about elite as synonymous with closing out. And I really take this idea that we're here to break down walls rather than build them. And we do this not just with students applying to college. I mean, I think something that all leaders of higher education should be talking about is that we have huge income disparities and educational attainment at the lowest ages. And this is some of my research as well, that's being completely exacerbated by the pandemic. So the lowest, most marginalized students are the ones who are not getting access to education right now, who don't have it in the home. And these are kids, seven-year-olds, eight-year-olds, who in 10 years are going to be our college pool. So I think it's every college and university president’s responsibility right now to say, what are we doing for those first graders? What are we doing with our college resources to help ensure that the diversity we want in our population of students, of faculty, of staff is there in 10 years. And so Barnard is starting several programs of which we're using our students to help tutor students across the New York Public Schools who aren't getting the in-person instruction right now, and whose parents aren't there in terms, they're probably working as frontline workers or other things. Working two jobs. Who aren't in the home as much to help to provide that support. And it's a really great example of how you can use the resources of the college and resources—I don't just mean money here. I mean, the human capital, we have these amazing students, diverse students who have been very successful, to reach out and help bring up the students who are not getting that input in school or in the home.
Alan Fleischmann
That's incredible because that becomes the pipeline for Barnard, but it also enriches the Barnard community as well. I'm curious also because you've had to be president through some pretty adverse times. So you're both a leader who comes with your own scholarly background, around dealing with the issues of adversity and anxiety. But now, you're also trying to, and successfully, building a community where you can empower others to lead as well. They don't have to be presidents and they don't have to be CEOs. But they should be able to find their voice and actually have purpose and impact. I'm curious whether—you’re mother. You’re President. You teach and you mentor. And now you look at all these young women that are in this incredible ecosystem, who are looking to you as an example. You're not only a leader, but you're helping leaders lead, is the answer. This is quite challenging with these different perspectives.
Sian Beilock
It's really interesting you bring this up, and it's actually it goes back, you asked if I use my research, or the psychology research to lead. This is another example. So there's a lot of work in psychology talking about the power of multiple selves. So I'm not just the president self, I'm a researcher self, I'm a mother self, I'm a friend self. And it's actually a psychological buffer to have these selves because when you really screw up in one area, you can fall back on the other. And I think it's so important, especially for young women who are coming through college now to understand that you don't have to be one thing. I think a generation ago, women hid everything else they did to be seen. They wanted to dress like men or look like men, or that was the need to be taken as serious in the workplace. And frankly, that one-dimensional approach turns a lot of young women off to high powered careers. And I felt that too, when I was at the University of Chicago. It was kind of like I didn't have a family. I never talked about my family or anything to do with them. You know, I was a leader and I was a high-powered scientist. And I've made a real explicit decision to showcase my family and showcase my mom fails. And my nine-year-old shows up on my Instagram and pops into my zooms. And I think it's so important to show young women that they can be mothers and they can be leaders and they can have high-powered careers, and they can fail at all of them. But it's not about doing everything perfect. It's about effecting change. And I talk a lot about slowly, slowly piece by piece, this the idea that we're moving forward right now.
Alan Fleischmann
And part of the big challenge is if you think you can do everything perfectly, all at the same time, you're gonna do all of it imperfectly, but no one's gonna know it. I mean, you actually then become the two selves, the one that you would share with the world. You see that on social media. The person who tells you that their life is perfect and shows a perfect life on Facebook isn't necessarily the person who's living the life where—thaymight be a lot of lonelier.
Sian Beilock
And I mean, I think that's so important. And we know that young people right now feel really anxious and alone. And there is this pressure to have the perfect outlook online and deal with all this other stuff on your own. And the fact that you can show fragility, that you can showcase mistakes, I think gives permission to take risks as well. Because if you're worried about failure and worried about showcasing that failure, you don't take risks. And we know that any leader you've talked to who's been successful takes a lot of risks, or takes risks at the right times. And we also know that there's research showing that women are less likely to take risks in certain situations. They're less likely to use their previous successes to take a risk moving forward. And we have to change that.
Alan Fleischmann
You're listening to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. I'm here with the President Barnard College, Sian Beilock, and she's an amazing leader, professor, president and mentor, and a mom. And we're talking about all these different hats that she wears. I'm really lucky because I get to see you up close. And one of the most difficult things that I think anybody could have gone through was when the unheard of happened. When you had a student Tessa Majors who was killed in New York/ Outside of the campus, off-campus. And you had to deal with collective mourning and to let disparate people have a larger community again, back to fear. In some cases that were closely connected to her. In other cases, they just felt grief. But you were able to really based on your background, and the grace under pressure you exude, you hit it right directly on. You mourn with the community, you looked at it, and you acted like someone from the community, which you were, but you did something else also. You kind of represented in New York. And a lot of ways you spoke up in a way that allowed me to work to grieve with you because it was a moment to mourn the loss of a life and beautiful life. But it was also immediately reflection of is New York going the wrong way. And I just think the way you handled lots of stakeholders but never lost the heart part was that based on all your research? Was an instinct, because that had to be a real test of time.
Sian Beilock
Thank you. Actually, today is the anniversary of Tess's death. So it's a particular day even to talk about this. You know, I think it's based on a lot of what I've learned in my work. And it comes back to this value of being authentic and there and in the moment and showing your fragility. The next day, I think one of the hardest things I ever had to do was we gathered 2000 people from the community to mourn it and to reflect on her life. And I spoke and I cried. And I also in the days ahead, and I wrote a New York Times op-ed about this, I gave people permission to grieve in their own way. Because I think it goes back to the fact that there's lots of pressure to feel like maybe you're doing the wrong thing or to step in one way. And we all experience these sorts of losses differently. And the fact that on social media, or other places, people are given a really hard time for expressing a particular point of view, especially one that doesn't go along with the norm. I push back on this idea that we should be able to feel things in different ways or not feel anything at all. And it comes from the heart. But it also comes from what the heart of a place like Barnard is, which is to have differing views. And to push against them. I think it's perfectly reasonable and acceptable and appropriate for students to be uncomfortable in the classroom. They need to hear views that they don't agree with. And they need to learn to articulate a view that other people who don't agree with them can accept. And you don't do that by speaking to people who feel like you. And you don't do that by only echoing something that you feel is socially acceptable. And we're obviously not doing this so well in our country about having these discussions across divides. But I think institutions of higher education are exactly where we have to teach it. Students should feel uncomfortable as they work through their views. They should feel that they have to justify how they think. They should feel that there are differing perspectives that they might not have thought of before. And that's what leads to great ideas and thinking.
Alan Fleischmann
well, you just kind of got to what I kind of thinking. Not everybody institution should be a campus, not every institution should have a campus. But when I hear you talk about community, when I hear you talk about mourning, grieving, accepting, challenging, it does need to have a campus. You mean, it's not all digital. And this should be an intellectual and emotional place for people to experiment and engage like we were just describing. I mean, that answer you just gave about the other question is really the answer to the next one, which is, do we need a campus life?
Sian Beilock
Again, I think it goes back to this idea that there are multiple ways to do education, but the life of the mind and the intellectual growing that happens at college, for many students happens outside the classroom. It happens in those midnight discussions with your dorm mates where you're having heated debates. And I think you could ask most college students and their parents where they want them to be right now and it's certainly back on campus. But, look, I think that one of the reasons that Barnard's so exciting is that the city is its campus, in many ways. It has its very own campus that is set off a little bit from the city. So it's not right you really do feel a campus, but our students learn throughout the city. And I think that's really special. I call New York City the best campus in the world.
Alan Fleischmann
Which is amazing. But it's also been the epicenter of attention, at least on COVID. And the whole pandemic. Right now, it seems to be the center of that. I mean, it is the most vibrant city in the world, I would argue, on so many levels, but it also is the place where the biggest challenges, usually happens as well, and over and over. And you've gone completely remote at this point. But you've had to make some tough decisions there as well. But it sounds like the community has stuck together.
Sian Beilock
Yeah, I mean, I think our Barnard community is just amazing. It's a family and we were remote in the fall, we're bringing more students back in the spring. Half our students are living off-campus right around Barnard and we are following the science. We know what we need to do is test and so even though our students were not on campus, we tested every student weekly. And we will be testing students twice a week when they come back. And our faculty and staff. We think we have a pretty good handle now on how to live and learn in an environment that's still currently in a pandemic.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, you guys have handled it pretty extraordinarily well and watched it, but you also have a beautiful campus.
Sian Beilock
It's absolutely gorgeous. And it breaks my heart when there are not that many students on it right now. We've started to open up, more and more students are on it, but I love it when it's vibrant. And when students are there, you feel the energy on. And I often end up on other Ivy campuses to give talks or talk to presidents and I cannot tell you how palpable that energy and the difference is at Barnard. I mean, I'm a little biased, I will admit that. But you see it you if you're ever depressed about what's happening in our country or the world, you walk on Barnard's campus during nonpandemic times, and you will be completely convinced that the next generation of leaders are right there.
Alan Fleischmann
Well, you deal with issues. I mean, race, before there was this whole, extraordinary and necessary awakening and the aftermath of the tragic murder of George Floyd. You on campus were already dealing with issues of race and politics and the roles of social justice issues and economic issues. The role of capitalism. How do we actually address democracy in a way that's inclusive and profound? These are the things that happen every day on campus. I've seen it,
Sian Beilock
It does. And I will say that there's wonderful things about going off to college in the woods or in the mountains, but there's something really special about being in the middle of the city that is always tackling the most important issues of our time. And you our students often talk about how they have a vocabulary and a voice to talk about issues that a lot of their peers at other institutions don't seem to have.
Alan Fleischmann
So I guess it doesn't surprise me that the thing that seems to be evolving now at Barnard is also another focus on science and that you're racing and building even a larger platform for future scientists. Here we're living literally in the days and the if not today, certainly, where the FDA is about to approve a vaccine. And when you look at the scientists that are behind the vaccine, many of them are women.
Sian Beilock
I love that. I love it.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah. Actually, what people don't realize is that sometimes it takes 10 years to get a vaccine. We're seeing something happen in a matter of months that is making the impossible possible and women are doing it. I'm just curious about that—ou know, this focus on science obviously, drives you personally, because it's been your journey. But again, that connectivity between the social sciences and the hard sciences and the medical sciences at Barnard.
Sian Beilock
Yeah, I mean, Barnard is—I often people talk about liberal arts are liberal arts colleges. And I actually hate that term, because I feel like people then say liberal arts and sciences. And it's a misnomer because the sciences are part of the liberal arts. So I just have gotten rid of that term and I talk about the arts and sciences. And frankly, any good scientist has taken an amazing philosophy or English class, and any good English major understands something about computer science. And so this is just a given at Barnard where everyone takes an intense year of writing and everyone takes computational classes. But we have a third of our majors are science majors now and we actually rank number nine of any college or university in the country in terms of students who go on to earn Ph.D.s in science. And we send an amazing number to med school. And it is the time to make sure that any young woman who has that aspiration and interest has a path in science, technology, and entrepreneurship. And it is my number one goal at Barnard and we've seen it happen. I'm just going to give you one example. Barnard because of our relationship with Columbia, some departments we just have at Barnard. So our urban studies, for example, architecture, dance, are just majors at Barnard. And if you're at Columbia, you do the Barnard major. And some departments historically have just been at Columbia, and computer science was one. And when I got there, we started a computer science department at Barnard. We've gone from six majors to over 100 in 4 years. And computer science is now one of the top 10 majors on our campus. And it was about bringing in powerful women computer scientists, providing a home for our young women to think that they could be computer scientists, and we've totally changed who's going into this discipline in four years.
Alan Fleischmann
That's amazing. And in a very short period of time. What is your dream, though, about the design? Because I am fascinated with the fact that you do intersect that, as I said earlier, the heart, the soul and the brain and you've got all these arts and the sciences. Is that your dream to actually kind of help create a next generation of scientists who are soulful and heartful? And then a whole bunch of folks who are getting involved in all other experts in society, but don't get too far away from the data, the science?
Sian Beilock
Yeah, I mean, I think everyone has to be computationally literate. I mean, we rely on computation. Don't you want to know what's happening with your data? I mean, I think that seems so important. And frankly, I think scientists need to be really good writers. And again, it goes back to this idea about being a public intellectual. So many of our scientists cannot talk about what they do to someone else. And how could anyone believe that data is important, or the science of a vaccine if we can't explain in really easy terms why they should? I mean, it's academic, it's our fault, not the receivers. I think I blame it totally on us. And one of my big pushes at Barnard has been around breaking down silos. And this really comes into play here, because we all should be able to write and communicate or have the tools to do it. And we all should be able to look at a graph and call bullshit on the journalist who doesn't understand the data themselves.
Alan Fleischmann
Especially now, if we're competing in a world where you got to know your technology, not just know the technician. My next question actually, as they think about this we're living in a time also where, with great humility from the public sector, private industry and civil society are going to be dominated in many ways to solve some of our biggest challenges. If you're a leader for the private sector, if you're a leader from civil society, and you're listening to the show right now, and you're fascinated by this incredible community that you're leading at Barnard, and they wanted to partner with you, and they say what could they be partnering with you to do? In essence, they won't have the Barnard degree for their employees, perhaps. But are there ways in which a company a firm, an organization can partner at Barnard and become part of that community?
Sian Beilock
Yeah, I mean, I think, well, if you want a partner, shoot me an email. I yeah, Barnard is about lifelong learning. Learning that begins way before you're 18 and learning that happens after and I think, the private sector, and universities and college settings should be much more intertwined. Everything from educating employees to thinking about pipelines. And the good thing is, is that there's colleges and universities everywhere that private sectors thrive. And I think that the partnership opportunities are endless and just have been unexplored.
Alan Fleischmann
Because I imagine if we're talking about lifelong learning, with four years of college being probably the most important. But you're building that pipeline to get you from K through 12, to college, and then you're creating this incredible campus environment in the middle of New York. But you're also in New York, which is a capital for so much a private industry, and so much, frankly, civil society. I imagined you could do a lot of really cool things together with the students at Barnard.
Sian Beilock
Yeah, I mean, I think both for the students and for folks way after, I mean, we have this amazing human capital. And companies should want and do want to hire our students, and thinking about how they can do that, I think is so important. And then retain them. And this is actually something that we've started to work on at Barnard. And we know something that is often really an important conversation with women as they go in and out of the workforce around childbirth. And we know from recent data around the pandemic, that one in four women have been thinking about leaving their job to deal with childcare. And the question is, what are the onramps back? Right, companies talk about wanting women and diverse hires. And it's fairly easy to do that out of college. But it's that second and third wrong where the research shows they're missing the diversity. And so I would love to have conversations with anyone who is interested in how Barnard can play a role in helping that on-ramp back. Something that's going to be so important in the next several years.
Alan Fleischmann
Are there classes that one can take or classes that can be created for the mom, for example, who says I'm going to take some time to be focused on family, but I don't want to be completely disconnected? So that I can actually kind of transition back into something else.
Sian Beilock
Yeah, we've been working on some of that. And also for moms to connect with their kids are doing a mother-daughter code thing and other things. But that's one of our plans, actually, to develop a whole Alumnae U out there to help connect alums, and then others who aren't alums who are enabled to come back. And it's not just coding or other things. Many people we know, many of our alums are really interested in understanding, maybe who are not of the generation that's most versed in having the conversations, understanding the social justice movement, what it means, how to talk about and think about anti-racism. And these are things our professors are experts at. So imagine being able to take a refresher course on the protests and where it comes from, and what it means and what the different languages being used these days. I think there's just so much opportunity.
Alan Fleischmann
So it's a couple of things I want to ask you about. One is being a mom. Again, you've got this nine-year-old. How do you carve out time because your job is pretty 24 seven? And I would say now, more than ever, everybody wants access to you because we're living in a credit 24 seven accessible world right now and zoom. How do you carve out time with her?
Sian Beilock
You know, it's not easy. I'm not always successful. This comes back to we all fail. But I try when I'm with her to put my phone down and put my computer down. And there's certain things that we like to do together. You know, I read with her before bed or other things, and oftentimes she jumps on my zooms, and she'll read behind me, as I'm zooming. And when she was in person in school, I would walk her to school. It's the little moments. But certainly, she sees that I work all the time and I think it's okay. And she sees I enjoy it. And we joke about it. We talk about how if there was a fire, is it my computer I'm taking out? Is it her? Is it the dog? We make it fun, but I think it's okay for especially young girls to see their mom's in this sort of action and what's going on. It sets an example for what you can do and what's okay. And when it's my time to be with her, I really do try and close my computer and put my phone down and pay attention just to her.
Alan Fleischmann
So it will not be quantity, but it will be high quality.
Sian Beilock
Yeah, and now she's nine, so everything I do is embarrassing. So doesn't always want to be with me.
Alan Fleischmann
That's good, too. So I wanted to mention also that you've got this incredible TED Talk that has millions and millions of viewers, and I want to encourage you to watch it. But what would you tell people what they would get out of it? Because again, this goes back to the humility of leadership and the strength of being the leader? And what would you tell people that they would get out of watching your TED Talk?
Sian Beilock
That you can actually figure out how to make sure that you perform well under pressure. That it's not just left up to chance or the grace of God, or the luck of the moment. That you can actually practice in the right way to succeed. And we often don't think there's anything we can do about that, that either you're born a thriver or a choker. And that's it. But no, it's something you can learn, and you just have to focus on it. And I teach you how.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. So it's not just a challenge, it's actually an opportunity to take something from it and adapt it and apply it in your own life. This has been an amazing thing. Is there one thing that I didn't ask you? I think it didn’t get deep into your youth and the journey of your youth. But is there is one thing I didn't ask you that I should that would be very illuminating? Because there are a lot of people who want to get to know you. There are a lot of people who want to learn from you. And there are a lot of people that see you as a role model. Is there one thing that you want to share?
Sian Beilock
Yeah. I will just say that I've always constantly worried and been anxious about success. And I think a lot of us are. I think we often feel like imposters in what we're doing. And I see that as being even a bigger thing as we come out of the pandemic. And I would say that it's okay to feel like that. The key is then to figure out what techniques you're going to use to look forward and push forward and succeed. And so it's something I talk a lot to students about and others. When I'm talking to business execs. I talked about in the idea that it's okay to embrace this. You said it so well, the fragility. And that we all have it and the tool is to embrace it and then figure out what to do with it.
Alan Fleischmann
Are you optimistic about the future?
Sian Beilock
Totally. Yeah, I mean, I think it's certainly been a challenging time but there's so much opportunity here. There's opportunity to not go back to what was normal before, to address some of the racial, economic social gaps that have been laid so bear by the current moment, and to create a more effective society for us all. And I see Barnard women out there already changing the world and I can't wait to see what else they do.
Alan Fleischmann
Who's your hero?
Sian Beilock
Oh, who is my hero? I have a lot of them. Actually. I'm not sure I could pick just one. But I will say that I've loved watching my nine-year-old through all of this. She's just bounced around and then rolled with the punches with everything going on. And I think we could all use a little bit of that young kid mentality, where we let everything roll off us a little more.
Alan Fleischmann
We're curious and accepting.
Sian Beilock
And just go with the flow.
Alan Fleischmann
Well, that's cool. So I hope your daughter listens to this show and understands it. She's your hero. I know that Barnard students are your hero, too, as well. This has been a real thrill for me. I mean, you are someone who speaks with an authentic voice, with everything you do, everything you write, and everything you say. And we’re living in an age where we're craving heroes, honestly. We're looking for people who can be raw and real. Authentic, but also lead and not be afraid to lead but then also show us vulnerability. Those are tough things to combine together. You know, when you think about it, you seem to deal with great grace. So I hope that anyone who's listening to the show will take you up on your offer. To engage with Barnard, to engage with you, to experiment with new ideas. And maybe invest in the students that you brought together as well. Because if you're looking at what we all aspire to become and be, I think a lot of what's happening in your college campus. And I applaud you. It's exciting to see. So thank you for joining us today.
Sian Beilock
Oh, well, thank you for having me here. And it's always wonderful to talk to you Alan.
Alan Fleischmann
You too big time. And I look forward to your next book. Is your next book in mind?
Sian Beilock
There is. It's not fully developed yet, but it will really have elements of how we all feel like imposters sometimes.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that you brought that up. The imposter syndrome issue is huge. And if people know that everyone else is feeling it, then they also notice, speak up, and speak out.
Sian Beilock
Yeah, it's okay.
Alan Fleischmann
I can't wait to see that book. Well, thank you, Sian, very much. I'm so glad you joined us on Leadership Matters today and I look forward to sharing you with our listenership and I look forward to more. hope you come back again.
Sian Beilock
Oh, well, thanks for having me. Always happy to.
Alan Fleischmann
Thanks so much. Talk to you soon. All right. Bye.
